Is Baha'u'llah true or false Prophet?

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There is this old blog: Ahlul Bayt

If you click the links about witnesses, he proves well, that there is a witness in each time. Some of the translations I disagree with, I would translated ummatan in Ibrahim (a) prayer and the intermediate umma as "course/path" as we have hadiths interpreting it that way plus this is the emphasis else where such as Ibrahim (a) being an ummatan (which doesn't make sense to be nation). But it's good logical reflection over the verses about witnesses.

 

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Also, there is this particular proof from Quran about the Rajah and some hadiths quoted in this respect: Raj’ah – The Return before the Day of Judgement

 

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Also, in the witnesses where he translates as believers who witness people's deeds, I would translate it as "security givers".

 

[Trailblazer]

It is for the same reason that, not everything in the Quran was explicitly said. But the Hadithes made Quran more clear. This calamity will happen long time later as Baha'u'llah wrote and I am certain it will be in the year 600. So, we still have another 420 years more. By that time, we could have more guidance from the translated Writings.

By that time, we will all be in the spiritual world, not that we shouldn't care about those who are still living on earth.

 

[CG Didymus]

The rest of that paragraph goes:

To remedy this condition there must be universal peace. To bring this about, a Supreme Tribunal must be established, representative of all governments and peoples; questions both national and international must be referred thereto, and all must carry out the decrees of this Tribunal. Should any government or people disobey, let the whole world arise against that government or people.

Are you trying to say this describes the Most Great Peace? "let the whole world arise against that government or people." doesn't sound like that to me.

I mentioned it because it says there will be a standing army. But God changing the hearts of people sounds much better than a standing army ready to stop anybody that tries to cause trouble. I suspect that Baha'is will trust the integrity of their leaders, but I'd worry about them too.

f the laws are going to have to be forced upon the people, then I think some people will argue and fight against their power and authority. If there are laws against drinking and drugs, prostitution, men having long hair etc. then maybe there's going to be people still doing those things. And if they are, then how great will this "most great peace" be... if there's still people breaking the laws?

 

[CG Didymus]

In my opinion not translating a prophecy you were sure came from your God warning of imminent danger to people living in the US and the other regions you mentioned would surely be a gross negligence on the part of Shoghi Effendi/the Universal House of Justice towards the believers right?

Don't they care about the lives of believers?

He could have made it clear that it was only in his opinion that the cities would be destroyed, and the Baha'is should move to Africa. And then say to just keep it to themselves. I wonder if he said anything about Lahaina?

 

[CG Didymus]

There is enough warning in our English Writings. Those other writings will be translated in its own time, if have not already.

Yeah, no rush. It's not like it's going to happen anytime soon. But really Africa? Yeah, no problems there.

 

[CG Didymus]

If one reads a bit further on Abdul'baha's quote in the secret of divine civilization, he clarifies it further.

"...... Should this greatest of all remedies be applied to the sick body of the world, it will assuredly recover from its ills and will remain eternally safe and secure.

"Observe that if such a happy situation be forthcoming, no government would need continually to pile up the weapons of war, nor feel itself obliged to produce ever new military weapons with which to conquer the human race. A small force for the purposes of internal security, the correction of criminal and disorderly elements and the prevention of local disturbances, would be required -- no more. In this way the entire population would, first of all, be relieved of the crushing burden of expenditure currently imposed for military purposes, and secondly, great numbers of people would cease to devote their time to the continual devising of new weapons of destruction -- those testimonials of greed and bloodthirstiness, so inconsistent with the gift of life -- and would instead bend their efforts to the production of whatever will foster human existence and peace and well-being, and would become the cause of universal development and prosperity. Then every nation on earth will reign in honor, and every people will be cradled in tranquillity and content..."

There are quite a few more passages about this.

Regards Tony

If the nations of the world are at peace, and everybody loves one another, why would there be problems keeping the peace within the country? I like IT's quote about all the bad people getting killed. But how good does a person have to be to not get on the "bad" list?

 

[CG Didymus]

It is for the same reason that, not everything in the Quran was explicitly said. But the Hadithes made Quran more clear. This calamity will happen long time later as Baha'u'llah wrote and I am certain it will be in the year 600. So, we still have another 420 years more. By that time, we could have more guidance from the translated Writings.

The world could break out in war right now. And there's a whole bunch of armed people in the U.S. right now ready to revolt. All they need is the word from their leader. And then there's the climate change situation. More storms, more floods, add in few earthquakes and we're in the Tribulation.

But yet again I ask, are you sure that the Messiah doesn't come after the Tribulation and not before? Because those Born-Again Christians have a much better deal with their God. He's going to yank them out of here to meet Jesus in the air, destroy the world, and then bring them back to live on a new Earth.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The world could break out in war right now. And there's a whole bunch of armed people in the U.S. right now ready to revolt. All they need is the word from their leader. And then there's the climate change situation. More storms, more floods, add in few earthquakes and we're in the Tribulation.

But yet again I ask, are you sure that the Messiah doesn't come after the Tribulation and not before? Because those Born-Again Christians have a much better deal with their God. He's going to yank them out of here to meet Jesus in the air, destroy the world, and then bring them back to live on a new Earth.

As we saw, Jesus said, His return is like coming of Noah. Noah came before flood, not after.

 

[Trailblazer]

As we saw, Jesus said, His return is like coming of Noah. Noah came before flood, not after.

Matthew 24

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

 

[danieldemol]

As we saw, Jesus said, His return is like coming of Noah. Noah came before flood, not after.

Actually according to the story Noah was here before, during and after the flood, but never mind - you can always make the parts you dont like symbolic in my view.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Actually according to the story Noah was here before, during and after the flood, but never mind - you can always make the parts you dont like allegorical in my view.

Well, Abdu'l-Baha said He will be always with us.
I would understand it, He meant specifically, not physically.

 

[danieldemol]

Well, Abdu'l-Baha said He will be always with us.
I would understand it, He meant specifically, not physically.

That's pretty irrelevant to Noah being commanded to repopulate the earth after the flood through reproduction in my view.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That doesn't say the only safe place is somewhere in central africa, if Shoghi Effendi really believed that the safety of believers depended on them moving to central africa he should have made it a priority to tell believers in their own language in my view.

There is a lot in the official writings Daniel. The key thought is that both Abdul'baha and Shoghi Effendi asked the Bahai to disperse from the cities and spread far and wide across the globe throughout all Nations. This served two functions (this is my opinion) First it assisted in the spread on the Message of Oneness and Unity. Second, no Baha'i is exempt from the waves of convulsions and of the Calamity to come. Dispersal would ensure the foundation of the Faith would remain, Shoghi Effendi was protecting the Cause and the Baha'is were given the chance to ensure its protection via dispersing, when asked.

Luckily, there were a few champions that did this, but mostly Baha'is have failed to disperse and many remain in cities. Again the cities are places for the bodies, the country is the place for the soul. I know from past experiences, that great progress would have happened in Australia, had the Baha'i moved from the cities to the country, and had the administration maturity to sustain the efforts.

Unfortunately the maturity of the Baha'is has been also degraded by materialism.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

If the nations of the world are at peace, and everybody loves one another, why would there be problems keeping the peace within the country? I like IT's quote about all the bad people getting killed. But how good does a person have to be to not get on the "bad" list?

CG, this world will always have those that do not want peace, for whatever reason that may be and there will always be the criminal element.

When justice is truly enacted, then the laws do act as a sufficient deterrence to a good majority of those who tend towards the criminal and violence elements.

An example is the Maximum penalty for Arson, if that did not deter you, then what would?

What about the penalty for a 3rd offence as a Thief

"...On the third offence, place ye a mark upon his brow so that, thus identified, he may not be accepted in the cities of God and His countries # 45.."

If the first penalties were not enough, then that should stop most people.

In all this, the Universal House of Justice can enact the Lesser penalties.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Without a military and armaments, how will the other nations rise up to put down this tyrannical king? But then it's not necessarily nations anymore that are rebelling. It's people that live within several nations. And this security force within a country, when will it ever be unnecessary? And when will it stop being used by the majority to keep minority groups in their place?

The issue is CG, is that you, @danieldemol and others are tackling this issue from the mindset of this age, from the mind of a decaying old world order and way of things.

The Baha'i are seeing this from what Baha'u'llah has promised for a future age.

The current Baha'i Faith is a microcosm of what the future can surpass. We are One people on one planet. Love, Peace, Justice, Mercy, Compassion, Charity is our mind, our mind is not of the old world order, but of the new world order.

The possibilities released by the Messages of the Bab and Baha'u'llah are unlimited.

Regards Tony

 

[Truthseeker]

If one reads a bit further on Abdul'baha's quote in the secret of divine civilization, he clarifies it further.

"...... Should this greatest of all remedies be applied to the sick body of the world, it will assuredly recover from its ills and will remain eternally safe and secure.

"Observe that if such a happy situation be forthcoming, no government would need continually to pile up the weapons of war, nor feel itself obliged to produce ever new military weapons with which to conquer the human race. A small force for the purposes of internal security, the correction of criminal and disorderly elements and the prevention of local disturbances, would be required -- no more. In this way the entire population would, first of all, be relieved of the crushing burden of expenditure currently imposed for military purposes, and secondly, great numbers of people would cease to devote their time to the continual devising of new weapons of destruction -- those testimonials of greed and bloodthirstiness, so inconsistent with the gift of life -- and would instead bend their efforts to the production of whatever will foster human existence and peace and well-being, and would become the cause of universal development and prosperity. Then every nation on earth will reign in honor, and every people will be cradled in tranquillity and content..."

There are quite a few more passages about this.

Regards Tony

That's clearly about the Most Great Peace. Good job! That was written in 1875, too.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

That's pretty irrelevant to Noah being commanded to repopulate the earth after the flood through reproduction in my view.

Ok, lets start the story of Noah from beginning. When did God tell Noah, there will be a flood and He needs to make an Ark? How long did it take Noah to build the Ark?

 

[Truthseeker]

And these words are not related to the second world war, because in some of the Writings of Shoghi Effendi, which are in Persian, He speaks of a third world war that will completely destroys America. Those writings dates after the second world war, so, it could not be said, Shoghi Effendi was speaking of the WW2.

I have reached the point where I realize it doesn't matter if you are right or I am right because what will happen will happen, and I won't see it anyway.