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Is Baha'u'llah true or false Prophet?

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
I have reached the point where I realize it doesn't matter if you are right or I am right because what will happen will happen, and I won't see it anyway.
That's true. In that sense it doesn't make a difference for us. But maybe it is good to try and understand what is yet to come, so, the Bahais develope the right expectation for the coming years and centuries. I believe the understanding of future Bahais will be based on understanding of previous generations to a high degree, much like, the understanding of Muslims comes from their previous generations. It was the older generations who understood Muhammad is the Final one and Quran the last one, then this understanding reached to future generations.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
When we moved here a couple decades ago there were no Baha'is. Now we got a half dozen kid's classes run by a half dozen different teachers, last Sunday a dozen of us had a really neat get together where my wife showed some movie clips on the wall then I got out my mandolin and we all made the rafters ring. That's us.
I'm glad things are going well in your locality in Panama. It's different in my locality, pretty stagnant. It's good to be reminded that my locality is just one locality and the US is just one country, and in a number of places no doubt things are going better than here. It's hard to get an accurate picture of the entire Baha'i world for me.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
When we moved here a couple decades ago there were no Baha'is. Now we got a half dozen kid's classes run by a half dozen different teachers, last Sunday a dozen of us had a really neat get together where my wife showed some movie clips on the wall then I got out my mandolin and we all made the rafters ring. That's us.
I'm glad things are going well in your locality in Panama. It's different in my locality, pretty stagnant. It's good to be reminded that my locality is just one locality and the US is just one country, and in a number of places no doubt things are going better than here. It's hard to get an accurate picture of the entire Baha'i world for me.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
When we moved here a couple decades ago there were no Baha'is. Now we got a half dozen kid's classes run by a half dozen different teachers, last Sunday a dozen of us had a really neat get together where my wife showed some movie clips on the wall then I got out my mandolin and we all made the rafters ring. That's us.
I'm glad things are going well in your locality in Panama. It's different in my locality, pretty stagnant. It's good to be reminded that my locality is just one locality and the US is just one country, and in a number of places no doubt things are going better than here. It's hard to get an accurate picture of the entire Baha'i world for me.
 

Pete in Panama

Well-Known Member
I'm glad things are going well in your locality in Panama. It's different in my locality, pretty stagnant. It's good to be reminded that my locality is just one locality and the US is just one country, and in a number of places no doubt things are going better than here. It's hard to get an accurate picture of the entire Baha'i world for me.
A big part is whether ur in a receptive area. Some places are simply closed and there's no hope while others have possibilities. There are 2 ways that I can think of to open up receptive areas. One is to figure out how to approach the people. That's hard. Another way is to find someone who intuitively knows what to do and then support them and do anything u can to make their job easier. That's what I did and it's my wife who's made things happen here.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
A big part is whether ur in a receptive area. Some places are simply closed and there's no hope while others have possibilities. There are 2 ways that I can think of to open up receptive areas. One is to figure out how to approach the people. That's hard. Another way is to find someone who intuitively knows what to do and then support them and do anything u can to make their job easier. That's what I did and it's my wife who's made things happen here.
From Pew Research 4 years ago:

The religious landscape of the United States continues to change at a rapid clip. In Pew Research Center telephone surveys conducted in 2018 and 2019, 65% of American adults describe themselves as Christians when asked about their religion, down 12 percentage points over the past decade. Meanwhile, the religiously unaffiliated share of the population, consisting of people who describe their religious identity as atheist, agnostic or “nothing in particular,” now stands at 26%, up from 17% in 2009.

Those two add up to 91% in 2019, so religions other than Christianity make up 9%. In 2009 other religions would have made up 6% of the population. It seems as though as Baha'i is "other" it should be going up as a share of the population. I doesn't look like that is happening. The number of Baha'is has stayed level over the last 4 or 5 years.

Additionally in the same report:

Furthermore, the data shows a wide gap between older Americans (Baby Boomers and members of the Silent Generation) and Millennials in their levels of religious affiliation and attendance. More than eight-in-ten members of the Silent Generation (those born between 1928 and 1945) describe themselves as Christians (84%), as do three-quarters of Baby Boomers (76%). In stark contrast, only half of Millennials (49%) describe themselves as Christians; four-in-ten are religious “nones,” and one-in-ten Millennials identify with non-Christian faiths.

Only about one-in-three Millennials say they attend religious services at least once or twice a month. Roughly two-thirds of Millennials (64%) attend worship services a few times a year or less often, including about four-in-ten who say they seldom or never go. Indeed, there are as many Millennials who say they “never” attend religious services (22%) as there are who say they go at least once a week (22%).

A lot of Baha'is in the Baha'i Faith now in America are "Baby Boomers". The greatest growth happened in that generation. We are an old community of believers. I happen to know you are a Baby Boomer who pioneered to Panama. That we are Baby Boomers affects the picture in America. We are dying off. Why there such a spurt in the sixties and early seventies I don't know.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
From Pew Research 4 years ago:

The religious landscape of the United States continues to change at a rapid clip. In Pew Research Center telephone surveys conducted in 2018 and 2019, 65% of American adults describe themselves as Christians when asked about their religion, down 12 percentage points over the past decade. Meanwhile, the religiously unaffiliated share of the population, consisting of people who describe their religious identity as atheist, agnostic or “nothing in particular,” now stands at 26%, up from 17% in 2009.

Those two add up to 91% in 2019, so religions other than Christianity make up 9%. In 2009 other religions would have made up 6% of the population. It seems as though as Baha'i is "other" it should be going up as a share of the population. I doesn't look like that is happening. The number of Baha'is has stayed level over the last 4 or 5 years.

Additionally in the same report:

Furthermore, the data shows a wide gap between older Americans (Baby Boomers and members of the Silent Generation) and Millennials in their levels of religious affiliation and attendance. More than eight-in-ten members of the Silent Generation (those born between 1928 and 1945) describe themselves as Christians (84%), as do three-quarters of Baby Boomers (76%). In stark contrast, only half of Millennials (49%) describe themselves as Christians; four-in-ten are religious “nones,” and one-in-ten Millennials identify with non-Christian faiths.

Only about one-in-three Millennials say they attend religious services at least once or twice a month. Roughly two-thirds of Millennials (64%) attend worship services a few times a year or less often, including about four-in-ten who say they seldom or never go. Indeed, there are as many Millennials who say they “never” attend religious services (22%) as there are who say they go at least once a week (22%).

A lot of Baha'is in the Baha'i Faith now in America are "Baby Boomers". The greatest growth happened in that generation. We are an old community of believers. I happen to know you are a Baby Boomer who pioneered to Panama. That we are Baby Boomers affects the picture in America. We are dying off. Why there such a spurt in the sixties and early seventies I don't know.
The Sixties, Seventies and early 80's still had a significant amount of people that were still pioneering both to other countries and on the homefront.

Not sure if statistics would back that assumption, but Here in Australia we still had Summer Schools and Conferences down to the regional level. At these events, teaching and pioneering were well supported. These slowly disappeared as we turned over into the 2000's.

Regards Tony
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
A lot of Baha'is in the Baha'i Faith now in America are "Baby Boomers". The greatest growth happened in that generation. We are an old community of believers. I happen to know you are a Baby Boomer who pioneered to Panama. That we are Baby Boomers affects the picture in America. We are dying off. Why there such a spurt in the sixties and early seventies I don't know.
On second thought, I think the social message resonated with what was happening then. The young people had become aware at that time that there was racism, and they grabbed that as a social issue. They were disenchanted by the Vietnam war, and thus were open to a message of peace. That was also the time when women's lib really took hold, so the message of the equality of the sexes was a message that resonated with them.

These days it is true that after George Floyd blatant murder by a policeman sparked an awareness that racism was still here, that it had not gone away, but long ago it had been accepted that racism was wrong. They had just become that it still existed. Our social issues today are taken for granted, they are universally accepted, so our social message doesn't stand out any more. That was a special time when it was possible for our social message to break through, and those days are gone.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Baha'i equality of the sexes = no women on the Baha'i Universal House of Justice.
That is completely illogical since it is the fallacy of hasty generalization and the fallacy of jumping to conclusions.
It is just something you use to cast a negative light on the Baha'i Faith.

 

danieldemol

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That is completely illogical since it is the fallacy of hasty generalization and the fallacy of jumping to conclusions.
It is neither, in my view all you are doing is demonstrating you dont understand fallacies;
'As regards your question concerning the membership of the Universal House of Justice: there is a Tablet from ‘Abdul-Bahá in which He definitely states that the membership of the Universal House is confined to men...'

Source: Bahá'í Reference Library - A Compilation on Women, Page 13
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
It is neither, in my view all you are doing is demonstrating you dont understand fallacies;
'As regards your question concerning the membership of the Universal House of Justice: there is a Tablet from ‘Abdul-Bahá in which He definitely states that the membership of the Universal House is confined to men...'

Source: Bahá'í Reference Library - A Compilation on Women, Page 13
If you think that no women on the Baha'i Universal House of Justice means that men and women are not considered equal in the Baha'i Faith, you are the one who does not understand fallacies.
 

danieldemol

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If you think that no women on the Baha'i Universal House of Justice means that men and women are not considered equal in the Baha'i Faith, you are the one who does not understand fallacies.
I'm sure Baha'i consider it as equality to bar them from the highest Baha'i institution, im just not convinced the critical thinker sees it that way.
 

Pete in Panama

Well-Known Member
From Pew Research 4 years ago:

The religious landscape of the United States continues to change at a rapid clip. In Pew Research Center telephone surveys conducted in 2018 and 2019, 65% of American adults describe themselves as Christians when asked about their religion, down 12 percentage points over the past decade. Meanwhile, the religiously unaffiliated share of the population, consisting of people who describe their religious identity as atheist, agnostic or “nothing in particular,” now stands at 26%, up from 17% in 2009.

Those two add up to 91% in 2019, so religions other than Christianity make up 9%. In 2009 other religions would have made up 6% of the population. It seems as though as Baha'i is "other" it should be going up as a share of the population. I doesn't look like that is happening. The number of Baha'is has stayed level over the last 4 or 5 years.

Additionally in the same report:

Furthermore, the data shows a wide gap between older Americans (Baby Boomers and members of the Silent Generation) and Millennials in their levels of religious affiliation and attendance. More than eight-in-ten members of the Silent Generation (those born between 1928 and 1945) describe themselves as Christians (84%), as do three-quarters of Baby Boomers (76%). In stark contrast, only half of Millennials (49%) describe themselves as Christians; four-in-ten are religious “nones,” and one-in-ten Millennials identify with non-Christian faiths.

Only about one-in-three Millennials say they attend religious services at least once or twice a month. Roughly two-thirds of Millennials (64%) attend worship services a few times a year or less often, including about four-in-ten who say they seldom or never go. Indeed, there are as many Millennials who say they “never” attend religious services (22%) as there are who say they go at least once a week (22%).

A lot of Baha'is in the Baha'i Faith now in America are "Baby Boomers". The greatest growth happened in that generation. We are an old community of believers. I happen to know you are a Baby Boomer who pioneered to Panama. That we are Baby Boomers affects the picture in America. We are dying off. Why there such a spurt in the sixties and early seventies I don't know.
What I'm getting from you is that you're responding to what you're looking at, and from what I can gather your assessment is accurate. My thinking is that there's much more going on than what ur looking at and if you looked elsewhere you'd get a different impression. I say good riddance to the fireside/declaration/feast/assembly crowd, that was a moribund paradigm.

We're now in a different age where the enrolled Baha'i is not nearly as important as the active Baha'i. There are millions of Baha'is in China and none are enrolled because in the PRoC enrollment isn't allowed. I'm thinking about a meetup of the entire House in Bahji meeting w/ several dozen Chinese believers (unenrolled) to talk about the pilgrimage in which they were participating. I'm also thinking about our children's classes conducted by young teachers (also unenrolled), these are folks I can't hold a candle to and I'll support them any way I can.

Maybe I got another couple decades to give to the faith. Or not. What's for sure is that right now I'm readying my home for maybe 3 dozen kids to spend the weekend here come this Friday. The story is that they WANTED to come up to our home 'cause they like it here. I will not be taking a leadership role here, I probably won't do anything because so many other younger people are covering the bases. The best part is that they'll most probably helping the Faith in the greater area long after I'm gone.
 

Pete in Panama

Well-Known Member
I'm sure Baha'i consider it as equality to bar them from the highest Baha'i institution, im just not convinced the critical thinker sees it that way.
You're absolutely right that the 'only-men' rule is totally incongruous w/ the equality thing. Nobody understands it, sure lots of Baha'is guess but nobody knows. One thing I have observed is the fact that only folks I've ever talked to about the question who'd objected were all men. All the women I've talked to about this say they're grateful.

Go figure.

Additional thought: maybe men are more prisoners of their sexual roles as "protectors" who decide that they have the God-given mission to address the wrongs done to poor helpless females. Imho that's a crock.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
A couple of other reference to Baha'u'llah in Isaiah:

9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
(King James Bible, Isaiah)
Here's something from Isaiah chapter 7. Who is this about?

Isaiah 7:15 He will be eating curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, 16 for before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste.​
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
You're absolutely right that the 'only-men' rule is totally incongruous w/ the equality thing. Nobody understands it, sure lots of Baha'is guess but nobody knows. One thing I have observed is the fact that only folks I've ever talked to about the question who'd objected were all men. All the women I've talked to about this say they're grateful.

Go figure.

Additional thought: maybe men are more prisoners of their sexual roles as "protectors" who decide that they have the God-given mission to address the wrongs done to poor helpless females. Imho that's a crock.
Just thinking out loud, I can think of one reason why women are not allowed to be elected to the UHJ. It is called pregnancy.
Probably no women have been candidates for presidents during their childbearing years either.

Go figure.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Here's something from Isaiah chapter 7. Who is this about?

Isaiah 7:15 He will be eating curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, 16 for before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste.​
Obviously that is about Jesus since He was the only one born of a virgin.

14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
When we moved here a couple decades ago there were no Baha'is. Now we got a half dozen kid's classes run by a half dozen different teachers, last Sunday a dozen of us had a really neat get together where my wife showed some movie clips on the wall then I got out my mandolin and we all made the rafters ring.

I'm glad things are going well in your locality in Panama. It's different in my locality, pretty stagnant. It's good to be reminded that my locality is just one locality and the US is just one country, and in a number of places no doubt things are going better than here. It's hard to get an accurate picture of the entire Baha'i world for me.
What I experienced was that it depended greatly on whose fireside a person went to. In the late 80's in Southern California Baha'i youth were doing Hip-Hop type of dancing and going to different communities to put on performances. But I don't think there were very many new enrollments.

In two decades, Pete plays music, and his wife shows a movie to a dozen people? Compare that to Calvary Chapel in California in the 70's that had a couple thousand new Christians show up for a Saturday night Christian Rock Concert and there could be a dozen of more new converts that night. But, by what Baha'is believe, they were all being told a bunch of misinterpreted things about God. The worst being that Jesus was God.

So, what I'm wondering is the LSA and the community working and growing. In a big city, where there are maybe a hundred Baha'is, how do they get along? How do they hold feast? Is the Baha'i Faith working? A small group with someone that can play music and has a little charisma is great. But what about the next day? What happens when everybody has to go to work? Or maybe some of them don't have a job. What about those people that stopped coming to feasts and firesides? What are the everyday workings of a Baha'i community?
 
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