Is Baha'u'llah true or false Prophet?

[Trailblazer]

Why not? Don't they have to ready just in case they are attacked?

I guess so.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You are not a Prophet, you know, and that makes no rational sense to me.

Noah was 600 years when flood came. There is nothing in the Books of God that is useless or serves no purpose. We must ask ourselves what is the purpose that in the story of Noah, it is said Noah was 600 when flood came? What benefit is for mankind to know this information?

"The Baha'is must disperse from the cities, for the people in the cities will be trapped when they want to get out. They must disperse for their protection - the cities are doomed - New York, Chicago, San Francisco, Los Angeles. They must flee from the United States, because America will become the storm center of the future. When asked, "Should the pioneers go back home after the calamity and help reconstruct," Shoghi Effendi replied, "Reconstruct what?" The young people must disperse far away. The old ones to outlying places - they must settle the goal cities. Sell your property and pioneer! Buy property in Central Africa! Those with independent means must pick up and go, and not wait for the committees to move them. Those with spirit must pack up and go. Take their passport and go."

"The earth will be covered mostly by dark skinned people and these of the so-called uncivilized nations, not submerged materialism, "The limbs of mankind shall quake" will apply more to the U.S.A. because of the importance of the U.S.A. and her great destiny. Many countries are over populated with people of bad blood. This must be cleansed. Science in the future will solve the food problem. The calamity will happen before the Lesser Peace. If the U.S.A. and Great Britain fail on the home fronts the Baghdad Conference may not take place. America must become the moral and spiritual leader of all the nations!!!!

Another evening, the Guardian said, "London, Paris, New York, Chicago, San Francisco are already trapped. There are Russian submarines along the Atlantic and Pacific coasts now." Some of the friends find it difficult to leave their homes and to pioneer, even to move to goals within their own country. They do not see that we are not asking them to sacrifice. We are protecting them from great difficulty and from themselves. We are not only protecting them from the calamity that is rushing toward them outwardly, but from the calamity that is rushing toward them inwardly."

Prophecies about the Calamity

"It is quite possible that the two-thirds of the earth’s population spoke of in the Bible will be annihilated. This is quite possible. The world is over-populated, and the blood of the people is impure. The retributive calamity will correct over-population problem this time. When the world is re-made, the advance of techniques and science will solve the problem of over-population in the Golden Age. Now, so much money is being used for armaments that there is no money with which to solve the population problem.

A retributive calamity which will be worse than war will come. It will appear suddenly – not by degrees. It will take place in the twinkling of an eye. You will go to bed one night; and when you wake up in the morning, it will be all over. You will know when it is coming. You will read about it in the newspapers and hear about it on the radio. You will recognize the signs of its coming. Read the newspaper editorial pages. The interpretation of the news is what is important.



The northern hemisphere will suffer most. There will be large areas of the earth that become uninhabitable – unarable. The southern continents will become more important in the future.



North America will be the worst affected – especially the United States. The Baha’is should not think that they have any special protection simply because they are Baha’is. Their only protection is in their dedication to the Faith. The homes of the American Baha’is will evaporate over-night. They will become refugees to other continents.


(Turning specifically to me, he continued) Kampala will be safe – so long as they don’t build American air bases in Kenya. The foothills of the Himalayas Mountains will also be safe."

Isobel Sabri Pilgrim’s Notes

Shoghi Effendi Rabbani's Talks

www.h-net.org

 

[CG Didymus]

Let me give you my opinion.

There will come a time, that, most people of the world, probably 2 out of 3 will be killed in the catastrophe. At that time, only the believers will be saved, as it will be revealed to them, where on earth is safe to be, when catastrophe comes. That is when only believers remain, similar to story of Noah. I think it will be 420 years from now. The believers must go to Africa, as Shoghi Effendi told us.

And that goes well with the NT Revelation prophecies. But that means that God intervenes big time and does away with all evil people. But then, how long before some of those "good" people get a little power-hungry and greedy?

That "new race of men" quote suggests that there will be a change in people, and they will all know God and do what is right.

But, if that is what it is going to take, then why didn't God do it in the first place?

 

[CG Didymus]

Noah was 600 years when flood came. There is nothing in the Books of God that is useless or serves no purpose. We must ask ourselves what is the purpose that in the story of Noah, it is said Noah was 600 when flood came? What benefit is for mankind to know this information?

"The Baha'is must disperse from the cities, for the people in the cities will be trapped when they want to get out. They must disperse for their protection - the cities are doomed - New York, Chicago, San Francisco, Los Angeles. They must flee from the United States, because America will become the storm center of the future. When asked, "Should the pioneers go back home after the calamity and help reconstruct," Shoghi Effendi replied, "Reconstruct what?" The young people must disperse far away. The old ones to outlying places - they must settle the goal cities. Sell your property and pioneer! Buy property in Central Africa! Those with independent means must pick up and go, and not wait for the committees to move them. Those with spirit must pack up and go. Take their passport and go."

"The earth will be covered mostly by dark skinned people and these of the so-called uncivilized nations, not submerged materialism, "The limbs of mankind shall quake" will apply more to the U.S.A. because of the importance of the U.S.A. and her great destiny. Many countries are over populated with people of bad blood. This must be cleansed. Science in the future will solve the food problem. The calamity will happen before the Lesser Peace. If the U.S.A. and Great Britain fail on the home fronts the Baghdad Conference may not take place. America must become the moral and spiritual leader of all the nations!!!!

Another evening, the Guardian said, "London, Paris, New York, Chicago, San Francisco are already trapped. There are Russian submarines along the Atlantic and Pacific coasts now." Some of the friends find it difficult to leave their homes and to pioneer, even to move to goals within their own country. They do not see that we are not asking them to sacrifice. We are protecting them from great difficulty and from themselves. We are not only protecting them from the calamity that is rushing toward them outwardly, but from the calamity that is rushing toward them inwardly."

Prophecies about the Calamity

"It is quite possible that the two-thirds of the earth’s population spoke of in the Bible will be annihilated. This is quite possible. The world is over-populated, and the blood of the people is impure. The retributive calamity will correct over-population problem this time. When the world is re-made, the advance of techniques and science will solve the problem of over-population in the Golden Age. Now, so much money is being used for armaments that there is no money with which to solve the population problem.

A retributive calamity which will be worse than war will come. It will appear suddenly – not by degrees. It will take place in the twinkling of an eye. You will go to bed one night; and when you wake up in the morning, it will be all over. You will know when it is coming. You will read about it in the newspapers and hear about it on the radio. You will recognize the signs of its coming. Read the newspaper editorial pages. The interpretation of the news is what is important.



The northern hemisphere will suffer most. There will be large areas of the earth that become uninhabitable – unarable. The southern continents will become more important in the future.



North America will be the worst affected – especially the United States. The Baha’is should not think that they have any special protection simply because they are Baha’is. Their only protection is in their dedication to the Faith. The homes of the American Baha’is will evaporate over-night. They will become refugees to other continents.


(Turning specifically to me, he continued) Kampala will be safe – so long as they don’t build American air bases in Kenya. The foothills of the Himalayas Mountains will also be safe."

Isobel Sabri Pilgrim’s Notes

Shoghi Effendi Rabbani's Talks

www.h-net.org

One of the questions I keep asking is... In which prophecies, in any religion, have the Messiah/Promised One returning before the calamity, dying, and then long after he's gone, then comes the Great Tribulation? The way things are now, especially with Israel being surrounded by enemies, fits very well with fundy Christian interpretations of the end-times.

But I know that one Baha'i will cry, "Oh spare me. It's not like the Bible is accurate." But to that I say, then why do Baha'is, including her, quote it? But only when it supports their beliefs.

 

[danieldemol]

Noah was 600 years when flood came. There is nothing in the Books of God that is useless or serves no purpose. We must ask ourselves what is the purpose that in the story of Noah, it is said Noah was 600 when flood came? What benefit is for mankind to know this information?

"The Baha'is must disperse from the cities, for the people in the cities will be trapped when they want to get out. They must disperse for their protection - the cities are doomed - New York, Chicago, San Francisco, Los Angeles. They must flee from the United States, because America will become the storm center of the future. When asked, "Should the pioneers go back home after the calamity and help reconstruct," Shoghi Effendi replied, "Reconstruct what?" The young people must disperse far away. The old ones to outlying places - they must settle the goal cities. Sell your property and pioneer! Buy property in Central Africa! Those with independent means must pick up and go, and not wait for the committees to move them. Those with spirit must pack up and go. Take their passport and go."

"The earth will be covered mostly by dark skinned people and these of the so-called uncivilized nations, not submerged materialism, "The limbs of mankind shall quake" will apply more to the U.S.A. because of the importance of the U.S.A. and her great destiny. Many countries are over populated with people of bad blood. This must be cleansed. Science in the future will solve the food problem. The calamity will happen before the Lesser Peace. If the U.S.A. and Great Britain fail on the home fronts the Baghdad Conference may not take place. America must become the moral and spiritual leader of all the nations!!!!

Another evening, the Guardian said, "London, Paris, New York, Chicago, San Francisco are already trapped. There are Russian submarines along the Atlantic and Pacific coasts now." Some of the friends find it difficult to leave their homes and to pioneer, even to move to goals within their own country. They do not see that we are not asking them to sacrifice. We are protecting them from great difficulty and from themselves. We are not only protecting them from the calamity that is rushing toward them outwardly, but from the calamity that is rushing toward them inwardly."

Prophecies about the Calamity

"It is quite possible that the two-thirds of the earth’s population spoke of in the Bible will be annihilated. This is quite possible. The world is over-populated, and the blood of the people is impure. The retributive calamity will correct over-population problem this time. When the world is re-made, the advance of techniques and science will solve the problem of over-population in the Golden Age. Now, so much money is being used for armaments that there is no money with which to solve the population problem.

A retributive calamity which will be worse than war will come. It will appear suddenly – not by degrees. It will take place in the twinkling of an eye. You will go to bed one night; and when you wake up in the morning, it will be all over. You will know when it is coming. You will read about it in the newspapers and hear about it on the radio. You will recognize the signs of its coming. Read the newspaper editorial pages. The interpretation of the news is what is important.



The northern hemisphere will suffer most. There will be large areas of the earth that become uninhabitable – unarable. The southern continents will become more important in the future.



North America will be the worst affected – especially the United States. The Baha’is should not think that they have any special protection simply because they are Baha’is. Their only protection is in their dedication to the Faith. The homes of the American Baha’is will evaporate over-night. They will become refugees to other continents.


(Turning specifically to me, he continued) Kampala will be safe – so long as they don’t build American air bases in Kenya. The foothills of the Himalayas Mountains will also be safe."

Isobel Sabri Pilgrim’s Notes

Shoghi Effendi Rabbani's Talks

www.h-net.org

So your source for prophecy is pilgrim notes? And then if they don't come true the Baha'i just say, "it was only a pilgrim notes that are based on faulty memories" they won't declare Shoghi Effendi a false prophet in my view.

And really God has a message as important as complete destruction requiring the believers to urgently move to Africa and he transmits it by the widely considered unreliable method of a pilgrim's note, but fails to mention it in any of Shoghi Effendi's official writings or letters? If you think about it that is gross negligence of Shoghi Effendi towards believers in my view.

 

[Truthseeker]

"The Baha'is must disperse from the cities, for the people in the cities will be trapped when they want to get out. They must disperse for their protection - the cities are doomed - New York, Chicago, San Francisco, Los Angeles. They must flee from the United States, because America will become the storm center of the future. When asked, "Should the pioneers go back home after the calamity and help reconstruct," Shoghi Effendi replied, "Reconstruct what?" The young people must disperse far away. The old ones to outlying places - they must settle the goal cities. Sell your property and pioneer! Buy property in Central Africa! Those with independent means must pick up and go, and not wait for the committees to move them. Those with spirit must pack up and go. Take their passport and go."

"The earth will be covered mostly by dark skinned people and these of the so-called uncivilized nations, not submerged materialism, "The limbs of mankind shall quake" will apply more to the U.S.A. because of the importance of the U.S.A. and her great destiny. Many countries are over populated with people of bad blood. This must be cleansed. Science in the future will solve the food problem. The calamity will happen before the Lesser Peace. If the U.S.A. and Great Britain fail on the home fronts the Baghdad Conference may not take place. America must become the moral and spiritual leader of all the nations!!!!

Another evening, the Guardian said, "London, Paris, New York, Chicago, San Francisco are already trapped. There are Russian submarines along the Atlantic and Pacific coasts now." Some of the friends find it difficult to leave their homes and to pioneer, even to move to goals within their own country. They do not see that we are not asking them to sacrifice. We are protecting them from great difficulty and from themselves. We are not only protecting them from the calamity that is rushing toward them outwardly, but from the calamity that is rushing toward them inwardly."

I've seen this material before in a pilgrim note. The Universal House of Justice said this later:

"The instructions of the Master and the Guardian make it very clear that Pilgrims' notes are hearsay and cannot claim the authority and binding power of the Sacred Text.... Moreover, the fact that the pilgrim writing of his experience is a reliable or well-known believer, or that the reported statement seems to be repeated in the notes of several pilgrims, does not in itself confer authority upon the pilgrim's note in question."
(From a letter written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer, January 23, 1980)
Compiled from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, Abdu'l-Bahá, Shoghi Effendi, and Universal House of Justice, "Lights of Guidance", 38.1433.1

Furthermore:

"Shoghi Effendi has often said that the notes of the pilgrims should be for their own personal use and bear absolutely no authority. What he desires to convey to the friends at large he will always say in his general letters."
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, February 26, 1933)
Compiled from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, Abdu'l-Bahá, Shoghi Effendi, and Universal House of Justice, "Lights of Guidance", 38.1434.1

Draw your own conclusions.

 

[danieldemol]

'the notes of pilgrims do not carry the authority resident in the Guardian’s letters written over his own signature'

Source: Bahá'í Reference Library - Directives from the Guardian, Page 54

 

[InvestigateTruth]

And that goes well with the NT Revelation prophecies. But that means that God intervenes big time and does away with all evil people. But then, how long before some of those "good" people get a little power-hungry and greedy?

That "new race of men" quote suggests that there will be a change in people, and they will all know God and do what is right.

But, if that is what it is going to take, then why didn't God do it in the first place?

It is hope that humanity at that time will be mature, that is, humanity will have reached age of maturity as Baha'u'llah prophesied.
This event must happen at the right time, when believers have reached maturity, so, they can rebuild a new humanity. If it happens sooner than it was supposed to, it will be like a bird, that has not grow enough to fly.

 

[Truthseeker]

"The Baha’i writings further recommend that any judgment issued by the Court will be binding upon all parties to the case. Should a nation fail to abide by the Court’s decision, it can be enforced through the coercive powers of an International Executive and a standing army: To remedy this condition there must be universal peace."

The rest of that paragraph goes:

To remedy this condition there must be universal peace. To bring this about, a Supreme Tribunal must be established, representative of all governments and peoples; questions both national and international must be referred thereto, and all must carry out the decrees of this Tribunal. Should any government or people disobey, let the whole world arise against that government or people.

Are you trying to say this describes the Most Great Peace? "let the whole world arise against that government or people." doesn't sound like that to me.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I've seen this material before in a pilgrim note. The Universal House of Justice said this later:

"The instructions of the Master and the Guardian make it very clear that Pilgrims' notes are hearsay and cannot claim the authority and binding power of the Sacred Text.... Moreover, the fact that the pilgrim writing of his experience is a reliable or well-known believer, or that the reported statement seems to be repeated in the notes of several pilgrims, does not in itself confer authority upon the pilgrim's note in question."
(From a letter written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer, January 23, 1980)
Compiled from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, Abdu'l-Bahá, Shoghi Effendi, and Universal House of Justice, "Lights of Guidance", 38.1433.1

Furthermore:

"Shoghi Effendi has often said that the notes of the pilgrims should be for their own personal use and bear absolutely no authority. What he desires to convey to the friends at large he will always say in his general letters."
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, February 26, 1933)
Compiled from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, Abdu'l-Bahá, Shoghi Effendi, and Universal House of Justice, "Lights of Guidance", 38.1434.1

Draw your own conclusions.

We dont have things like, the people were liars, and made up stories from themselves and said this is what Shoghi Effendi have said.
It is possible that those who took the notes, made some mistakes while writing, which could cause inaccuracies in the notes. In this sense the nores are not considered authoritative. But that does not mean, these notes are fake or there was no such sayings from Shoghi Effendi or Abdulbaha. There was of course as they can be found in His Writings too. But some of then are in Persian, and I dont know if they are translated yet.

مرجع كتب وآثار بهائی - حصن حصين شريعت الله٬ صفحه ۱۶۵

reference.bahai.org

 

[Truthseeker]

In this sense the nores are not considered authoritative. But that does not mean, these notes are fake or there was no such sayings from Shoghi Effendi or Abdulbaha.

In the case of Shoghi Effendi, my view is that he didn't have the Prophetic faculty, and that's why he didn't tell in his letters what he said to this pilgrim. He did interpret prophecies by Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha, and in this he is infallible. He said this in a letter in 1948:

We do not know if there will be another Great War; what we do know is this: that unless people become spiritually awakened in time, great suffering, maybe in the form of war, will come upon them, for humanity must be unified, must be redeemed.
Shoghi Effendi, "Unfolding Destiny", 7.65.2

Maybe a war. That is not definite.

 

[danieldemol]

We dont have things like, the people were liars, and made up stories from themselves and said this is what Shoghi Effendi have said.
It is possible that those who took the notes, made some mistakes while writing, which could cause inaccuracies in the notes. In this sense the nores are not considered authoritative. But that does not mean, these notes are fake or there was no such sayings from Shoghi Effendi or Abdulbaha. There was of course as they can be found in His Writings too. But some of then are in Persian, and I dont know if they are translated yet.

مرجع كتب وآثار بهائی - حصن حصين شريعت الله٬ صفحه ۱۶۵

reference.bahai.org

In my opinion not translating a prophecy you were sure came from your God warning of imminent danger to people living in the US and the other regions you mentioned would surely be a gross negligence on the part of Shoghi Effendi/the Universal House of Justice towards the believers right?

Don't they care about the lives of believers?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

In the case of Shoghi Effendi, my view is that he didn't have the Prophetic faculty, and that's why he didn't tell in his letters what he said to this pilgrim. He did interpret prophecies by Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha, and in this he is infallible. He said this in a letter in 1948:

We do not know if there will be another Great War; what we do know is this: that unless people become spiritually awakened in time, great suffering, maybe in the form of war, will come upon them, for humanity must be unified, must be redeemed.
Shoghi Effendi, "Unfolding Destiny", 7.65.2

Maybe a war. That is not definite.

"The prophetic voice of Bahá’u’lláh warning, in the concluding passages of the Hidden Words, “the peoples of the world” that “an unforeseen calamity is following them and that grievous retribution awaiteth them” throws indeed a lurid light upon the immediate fortunes of sorrowing humanity. Nothing but a fiery ordeal, out of which humanity will emerge, chastened and prepared, can succeed in implanting that sense of responsibility which the leaders of a new-born age must arise to shoulder.

I would again direct your attention to those ominous words of Bahá’u’lláh which I have already quoted: “And when the appointed hour is come, there shall suddenly appear that which shall cause the limbs of mankind to quake.”

Has not ‘Abdu’l‑Bahá Himself asserted in unequivocal language that “another war, fiercer than the last, will assuredly break out”?"

Search – Authoritative Writings and Guidance | Bahá’í Reference Library

www.bahai.org

And these words are not related to the second world war, because in some of the Writings of Shoghi Effendi, which are in Persian, He speaks of a third world war that will completely destroys America. Those writings dates after the second world war, so, it could not be said, Shoghi Effendi was speaking of the WW2.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

In my opinion not translating a prophecy you were sure came from your God warning of imminent danger to people living in the US and the other regions you mentioned would surely be a gross negligence on the part of Shoghi Effendi/the Universal House of Justice towards the believers right?

Don't they care about the lives of believers?

There is enough warning in our English Writings. Those other writings will be translated in its own time, if have not already.

 

[danieldemol]

There is enough warning in our English Writings. Those other writings will be translated in its own time, if have not already.

In the official English writings or in unreliable pilgrims notes?

 

[Trailblazer]

In the official English writings or in unreliable pilgrims notes?

“The world is in travail, and its agitation waxeth day by day. Its face is turned towards waywardness and unbelief. Such shall be its plight, that to disclose it now would not be meet and seemly. Its perversity will long continue. And when the appointed hour is come, there shall suddenly appear that which shall cause the limbs of mankind to quake. Then, and only then, will the Divine Standard be unfurled, and the Nightingale of Paradise warble its melody.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 118-119

 

[danieldemol]

“The world is in travail, and its agitation waxeth day by day. Its face is turned towards waywardness and unbelief. Such shall be its plight, that to disclose it now would not be meet and seemly. Its perversity will long continue. And when the appointed hour is come, there shall suddenly appear that which shall cause the limbs of mankind to quake. Then, and only then, will the Divine Standard be unfurled, and the Nightingale of Paradise warble its melody.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 118-119

That doesn't say the only safe place is somewhere in central africa, if Shoghi Effendi really believed that the safety of believers depended on them moving to central africa he should have made it a priority to tell believers in their own language in my view.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That doesn't prove via Writings to me that the Most Great Peace will have no armies. Again, this is about the Lesser Peace. This describes before the oneness of mankind is firmly in the hearts of all of humanity.

Notice for instance in Baha'u'llah's description "preserving the security of their realms and of maintaining internal order." The description of to "reduce a country to utter submission" indicates arms being possibly used to maintain the Lesser Peace

If one reads a bit further on Abdul'baha's quote in the secret of divine civilization, he clarifies it further.

"...... Should this greatest of all remedies be applied to the sick body of the world, it will assuredly recover from its ills and will remain eternally safe and secure.

"Observe that if such a happy situation be forthcoming, no government would need continually to pile up the weapons of war, nor feel itself obliged to produce ever new military weapons with which to conquer the human race. A small force for the purposes of internal security, the correction of criminal and disorderly elements and the prevention of local disturbances, would be required -- no more. In this way the entire population would, first of all, be relieved of the crushing burden of expenditure currently imposed for military purposes, and secondly, great numbers of people would cease to devote their time to the continual devising of new weapons of destruction -- those testimonials of greed and bloodthirstiness, so inconsistent with the gift of life -- and would instead bend their efforts to the production of whatever will foster human existence and peace and well-being, and would become the cause of universal development and prosperity. Then every nation on earth will reign in honor, and every people will be cradled in tranquillity and content..."

There are quite a few more passages about this.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

That doesn't say the only safe place is somewhere in central africa,

No, it doesn't say that the only safe place is somewhere in central Africa.
It says "Such shall be its plight, that to disclose it now would not be meet and seemly."

If Baha'u'llah chose not to disclose it then that means He didn't want us to know, and there is a reason for that, so I am going to trust Him, not some Pilgrim's Notes.

if Shoghi Effendi really believed that the safety of believers depended on them moving to central africa he should have made it a priority to tell believers in their own language in my view.

I agree.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

In the official English writings or in unreliable pilgrims notes?

It is for the same reason that, not everything in the Quran was explicitly said. But the Hadithes made Quran more clear. This calamity will happen long time later as Baha'u'llah wrote and I am certain it will be in the year 600. So, we still have another 420 years more. By that time, we could have more guidance from the translated Writings.