Is Baha'u'llah true or false Prophet?

[danieldemol]

Additional thought: maybe men are more prisoners of their sexual roles as "protectors" who decide that they have the God-given mission to address the wrongs done to poor helpless females. Imho that's a crock.

FWIW you'll never hear me describe women as helpless. Strawman?

 

[danieldemol]

Just thinking out loud, I can think of one reason why women are not allowed to be elected to the UHJ. It is called pregnancy.
Probably no women have been candidates for presidents during their childbearing years either.

Go figure.

I haven't done the research to know whether women have been presidents during their child bearing years (and i doubt you have either).

But laying that aside, there are plenty of women who dont raise children or are past child-bearing age who could be on the Baha'i Universal House of Justice if they weren't barred in my view.

 

[Trailblazer]

I haven't done the research to know whether women have been presidents during their child bearing years (and i doubt you have either).

I have not looked at all the countries in the world, only the United States. There have been no female presidents of childbearing years in the United States.

But laying that aside, there are plenty of women who dont raise children or are past child-bearing age who could be on the Baha'i Universal House of Justice if they weren't barred in my view.

My point was that a woman of childbearing years could be elected to the UHJ if women were allowed on the UHJ.
If that woman was in her childbearing years she could get pregnant and wind up with a baby. That would create a conflict with her duties as a mother vs. her duties on the UHJ.

You say "barred" as if Baha'i women 'care' about being on the UHJ. I have never seen a woman complain about being barred.

 

[Truthseeker]

With regard to the status of women, the important point for Bahá'ís to remember is that in the face of the categorical pronouncements in Bahá'í Scripture establishing the equality of men and women, the ineligibility of women for membership on the Universal House of Justice does not constitute evidence of the superiority of men over women. It must also be borne in mind that women are not excluded from any other international institution of the Faith. They are found among the ranks of the Hands of the Cause. They serve as members of the International Teaching Center and as Continental Counsellors. And, there is nothing in the text to preclude the participation of women in such future international bodies as the Supreme Tribunal.

Though at the present time, it may be difficult for the believers to appreciate the reason for the circumscription of membership on the Universal House of Justice to men, we call upon the friends to remain assured by the Master's promise that clarity of understanding will be achieved in due course. The friends, both women and men, must accept this with faith that the Covenant of Bahá’u’lláh will aid them and the institutions of His World Order to see the realization of every principle ordained by His unerring Pen, including the equality of men and women, as expounded in the Writings of the Cause.

The Universal House of Justice
Universal House of Justice, "Women on the Universal House of Justice"

 

[Pete in Panama]

Just thinking out loud, I can think of one reason why women are not allowed to be elected to the UHJ. It is called pregnancy.
Probably no women have been candidates for presidents during their childbearing years either.

Go figure.

There are all sorts of possibilities that we can come up w/ but my thinking now is that if we recognize the question of equality/sameness of men/women then we have to admit that men/women are equal and different. Abdul'Baha's analogy of the two wings of the bird is useful as we can say the two wings are equal and we can also say the two wings are complete opposites.

Keeping in mind the equality/sameness conundrum can help us thru all the cases in the faith where men and women are treated differently. My wife was telling me about a paper she wrote on this a while back where she pointed out that the man has the obligation of financial support and the women doesn't. Only the man has the obligation of physically protecting the community. The woman is named the first educator of the child. It went on and on.

This take is not confined to the just the Baha'is and not just to religion. Back in the 1970's the U.S. Army wanted to assume men & women were the same so they made the same physical requirements in boot camp for both sexes. It was a disaster. The average upper body strength of a woman is equal to that of a 60-year old man. Sure women can do a lot than men can't do but the reality is that men and women are different.

The odds of any man getting elected to the House is one out of a half million. I'm old so for me it's nil. My wife went to Haifa and participated in the selection of the members. Twice. Even that opportunity will never be available to me, and that's all fine w/ me.

 

[Pete in Panama]

...Pete plays music, and his wife shows a movie to a dozen people? Compare that to Calvary Chapel in California in the 70's that had a couple thousand new Christians show up for a Saturday night Christian Rock Concert and there could be a dozen of more new converts that night....

So we're comparing me & my wife hosting a dozen folks in my home to hear about our religion, to thousands of Christians attending a concert cheering their chosen religion. Off hand that's not significant to me though I would raise an eyebrow if those thousands of Christians did what I did and they ended up w/ ten thousand interested visitors from other religions all gathering for intimate personal interchanges in a thousand homes.

What I understand is that the guidance of our faith is no longer "events" but rather significant personal discussions. imho that's where the action is.

But, by what Baha'is believe, they were all being told a bunch of misinterpreted things about God. The worst being that Jesus was God.

That's an interesting point, we can get into it if it's important to you.

So, what I'm wondering is the LSA and the community working and growing. In a big city, where there are maybe a hundred Baha'is, how do they get along? How do they hold feast? Is the Baha'i Faith working? A small group with someone that can play music and has a little charisma is great. But what about the next day? What happens when everybody has to go to work? Or maybe some of them don't have a job. What about those people that stopped coming to feasts and firesides? What are the everyday workings of a Baha'i community?

There are things happening but I'm not sure where ur coming from and what ur interested in. Are u a discouraged Baha'i? Are u in some other religion asking questions? Are you simply enjoying complaining w/o getting anything done?

 

[Pete in Panama]

FWIW you'll never hear me describe women as helpless. Strawman?

Let's not fight.

We started w/ me saying that the idea that we need to rescue poor & helpless women is a crock. You have got to know that there really are men who feel that way. You're free to agree w/ me that the idea is a crock. Or not. It's a big world and lots of folks have lots of different points of view. The point is that I'm not fighting w/ you on this but rather I'm interested in sharing thoughts.

We can drop this if it's not important to you and if this is significant we can discuss it. Above in my previous posts are more of my thoughts on the subject and I'd be curious as to what your thinking is.

 

[Pete in Panama]

With regard to the status of women, the important point for Bahá'ís to remember is that in the face of the categorical pronouncements in Bahá'í Scripture establishing the equality of men and women, the ineligibility of women for membership on the Universal House of Justice does not constitute evidence of the superiority of men over women. It must also be borne in mind that women are not excluded from any other international institution of the Faith. They are found among the ranks of the Hands of the Cause. They serve as members of the International Teaching Center and as Continental Counsellors. And, there is nothing in the text to preclude the participation of women in such future international bodies as the Supreme Tribunal.

Though at the present time, it may be difficult for the believers to appreciate the reason for the circumscription of membership on the Universal House of Justice to men, we call upon the friends to remain assured by the Master's promise that clarity of understanding will be achieved in due course. The friends, both women and men, must accept this with faith that the Covenant of Bahá’u’lláh will aid them and the institutions of His World Order to see the realization of every principle ordained by His unerring Pen, including the equality of men and women, as expounded in the Writings of the Cause.

The Universal House of Justice
Universal House of Justice, "Women on the Universal House of Justice"

thanks

 

[Muffled]

Jesus did not say that God lives inside of people. That is only what Christians interpreted certain verses in the Bible to mean.

I believe you can say that but I know the truth and will never depart from it.

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe you can say that but I know the truth and will never depart from it.

I believe you can say that but I know the truth and will never depart from it.

 

[Muffled]

Some things are either true or false, but nothing is black or white. That is a logical fallacy.

black-or-white

You presented two alternative states as the only possibilities, when in fact more possibilities exist.

Also known as the false dilemma, this insidious tactic has the appearance of forming a logical argument, but under closer scrutiny it becomes evident that there are more possibilities than the either/or choice that is presented. Binary, black-or-white thinking doesn't allow for the many different variables, conditions, and contexts in which there would exist more than just the two possibilities put forth. It frames the argument misleadingly and obscures rational, honest debate.

Example: Whilst rallying support for his plan to fundamentally undermine citizens' rights, the Supreme Leader told the people they were either on his side, or they were on the side of the enemy.

Your logical fallacy is black or white

I believe Jesus said as much. There is no middle ground. You are either with Him or you are not.

 

[Muffled]

I believe you can say that but I know the truth and will never depart from it.

I do not believe you are capable of knowing the truth.

 

[Trailblazer]

I do not believe you are capable of knowing the truth.

I do not believe you are able to know the whole truth, given all you have is the Bible to base your beliefs on.

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe Jesus said as much. There is no middle ground. You are either with Him or you are not.

I am with Jesus but I am not with Christianity.

 

[Trailblazer]

I do not believe you are capable of knowing the truth.

Everyone is capable of knowing the truth about God.

“Suffer not yourselves to be wrapt in the dense veils of your selfish desires, inasmuch as I have perfected in every one of you My creation, so that the excellence of My handiwork may be fully revealed unto men. It follows, therefore, that every man hath been, and will continue to be, able of himself to appreciate the Beauty of God, the Glorified. Had he not been endowed with such a capacity, how could he be called to account for his failure?” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 143

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

 

[Truthseeker]

The odds of any man getting elected to the House is one out of a half million. I'm old so for me it's nil. My wife went to Haifa and participated in the selection of the members. Twice. Even that opportunity will never be available to me, and that's all fine w/ me.

Yes, I've heard verbally from you that you wife is on the NSA of Panama. I think you also said she's on your local LSA. Busy woman, no doubt!

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes, I've heard verbally from you that you wife is on the NSA of Panama. I think you also said she's on your local LSA. Busy woman, no doubt!

Personally I see this is the greatest bounty. Not serving on the Universal House of Justice enables a person to expand their service.

Thought my wife and I have been remote most of our Baha'i lives, there were a few times when she and I have served in Local Spiritual Assemblies. It is quite funny, as in those locations there were not a lot of Baha'is and every one of them were hoping it was not them that got elected. Ha Ha

Regards Tony

 

[Pete in Panama]

Personally I see this is the greatest bounty. Not serving on the Universal House of Justice enables a person to expand their service.

Thought my wife and I have been remote most of our Baha'i lives, there were a few times when she and I have served in Local Spiritual Assemblies. It is quite funny, as in those locations there were not a lot of Baha'is and every one of them were hoping it was not them that got elected. Ha Ha

Regards Tony

Last LSA election here I was a teller & for 9th place there was a runoff between me & some local lady. As it turned out I ended up casting the deciding vote & I voted for the lady. She's never shown up for a meeting. I deeply regret my vote. Sure I'm limited in my abilities but hell, at least I'd show up so we'd have a quorum. Live & learn.

Yes, I've heard verbally from you that you wife is on the NSA of Panama. I think you also said she's on your local LSA. Busy woman, no doubt!

She didn't get elected to the National Assembly this year, right before voting the counselor announced that the procedure at the House is that anyone over 70 quits right before the election to send a message to the voters to consider someone younger.

Decades ago when I was young the faith was run by a bunch of old people & the faith lost enrollments. They've ended the oligarchy but that action was too late for me to participate-- not that I'm complaining, it's good that the young are in charge now.

 

[danieldemol]

You say "barred" as if Baha'i women 'care' about being on the UHJ. I have never seen a woman complain about being barred.

In my view evidently some of them care about female representation enough to leave the Baha'i faith.

I asked an ex-Baha'i community whether the ladies there thought it was fair that women can't be on the Bahai UHoJ, here are 2 of the responses I received;

'It’s sexism, another example of outdated misogyny. It’s one of the main reasons I left. And I’ve since discovered other examples of sexism in its writings that I’d never seen before.'

And

'This was a big shelf item for me since I was told men and women were equal in the Baha'i Faith and I only found out well after declaring that they actually aren't.

This is not the only teaching in the faith they gaslight themselves about.'

Source: Reddit - Dive into anything

 

[Trailblazer]

'This was a big shelf item for me since I was told men and women were equal in the Baha'i Faith and I only found out well after declaring that they actually aren't.

I guess that person as not very logical.