Is being gay a sin according to your religion?

[sojourner]

Well, as a heterosexual I do make a choice

No. You don't. You don't "choose" to be sexually attracted to women. You simply are attracted to women. You choose not to have sex with men, becuase you're not attracted to them. It's a no-brainer. You don't think about men in sexual terms. It's the same for homosexuals.

I have no interest or inclination to be involved sexually with another man. I could choose otherwise, but I have never and will never .

...Because you're not gay! And "being sexually involved" isn't the same thing as being sexually attracted. Do you think you can choose to be sexually attracted to men?

Prisoners of both sexes sometimes choose homosexual acts, but as soon as they are released and as long as they are free, many for the rest of their lives, never make that choice again.

That's called "prison rape." It has nothing to do with sexual orientation. It has to do with expression of anger.

You will have to ask a homosexual who believes he doesn't have a choice why he or she says that

No, we're asking YOU. Don't deflect the question.

 

[sojourner]

I never made a choice otherwise. I was born a male, clearly by physical characteristics designed to have sex with a woman, never doubted it

Because. You're. Not. Gay. Some are born male, but are attracted to other males -- regardless of "physical characteristics." As one gay acquaintance said: "The mouth makes a better vagina than the vagina does." And they never doubt their orientation. Why do you doubt their orientation?

 

[sojourner]

I may be attracted to my neighbors wife, but I choose not to act on that attraction

And homosexuals are attracted to their neighbor. And they choose not to act on that attraction. But I bet you did act on your attraction to your wife. Just as homosexuals act on their attractions to their significant others. No, choosing not to have sex with certain individuals simply isn't the same as choosing not to be attracted to a particular sex.

Problem is, you're obfuscating the issue and deflecting direct questions by misdirecting those questions. We'd like your honest answers to the questions that have been asked of you.

I think that, if the truth be known, you don't really believe that homosexuality is a real orientation. Just like the biblical writers. I think you think that people can just decide who flips their switch. The question has been asked: Do you choose which sex to be attracted to? It's a simple question, requiring a simple "yes" or "no" answer. If not, why not? And if not, on what reasonable (not biblical) grounds can you expect others to have that choice?

 

[viole]

I never made a choice otherwise. I was born a male, clearly by physical characteristics designed to have sex with a woman, never doubted it

Yes, but that is not what I meant. By the way, the available design seems to support gay sex, too. Obviously, otherwise it would be impossible to do it.

What I meant is:

1) Do you find it hard to be attracted by women? (I guess no)
2) Do you find it hard to be attracted by men? (I guess yes)

Could you consciously and purposefully choose the sex you are feel attraction for, and reverse my answers between brackets? Is it remotely possible that you could do that?

Ciao

- viole

 

[shmogie]

No. You don't. You don't "choose" to be sexually attracted to women. You simply are attracted to women. You choose not to have sex with men, becuase you're not attracted to them. It's a no-brainer. You don't think about men in sexual terms. It's the same for homosexuals.


...Because you're not gay!


That's called "prison rape." It has nothing to do with sexual orientation. It has to do with expression of anger.


No, we're asking YOU. Don't deflect the question.

And homosexuals are attracted to their neighbor. And they choose not to act on that attraction. But I bet you did act on your attraction to your wife. Just as homosexuals act on their attractions to their significant others. No, choosing not to have sex with certain individuals simply isn't the same as choosing not to be attracted to a particular sex.

Problem is, you're obfuscating the issue and deflecting direct questions by misdirecting those questions. We'd like your honest answers to the questions that have been asked of you.

I think that, if the truth be known, you don't really believe that homosexuality is a real orientation. Just like the biblical writers. I think you think that people can just decide who flips their switch. The question has been asked: Do you choose which sex to be attracted to? It's a simple question, requiring a simple "yes" or "no" answer. If not, why not? And if not, on what reasonable (not biblical) grounds can you expect others to have that choice?

Yes, I believe homosexuals make a choice, and it may be predicated on environmental or psychological factors that are present that drives a person in that direction. When my first wife died I felt compelled, because of my anger, grief and stress to do things that were completely out of character, I hurt people ( not physically) I virtually became an alcoholic ( I had consumed no alcohol for 30 years) I rejected friends, and I felt totally and completely driven to do what I was doing, I rarely thought of doing otherwise, and it took years for me to return somewhat to what I had been. Was I born a drunk and hell raiser, to be rude and disrespectful?, NO. And as I have said more than once, until I see overwhelming proof that identifies a specific cause for this choice, I will continue to believe as I do. In the context of society I make no judgements of right and wrong, I believe very firmly in the Constitution which affords God given unalieanable rights to all people. As I have said multiple, multiple times people can do whatever they choose, as long as it is not harmful to others, or criminal.

 

[shmogie]

Yes, but that is not what I meant. By the way, the available design seems to support gay sex, too. Obviously, otherwise it would be impossible to do it.

What I meant is:

1) Do you find it hard to be attracted by women? (I guess no)
2) Do you find it hard to be attracted by men? (I guess yes)

Could you consciously and purposefully choose the sex you are feel attraction for, and reverse my answers between brackets? Is it remotely possible that you could do that?

Ciao

- viole

Well, I don't think using part of the anatomy designed for the expulsion of waste material for sex could be considered part of the physical design, nor do I think an organ designed to be penetrated by a penis, being penetrated by something else is part of the physical design either. As to your questions, I can choose to do whatever I choose. There are male prostitutes who loathe what they are doing, but they like the money. Their sexual " attraction": is for females, just as they were designed

 

[shmogie]

No. You don't. You don't "choose" to be sexually attracted to women. You simply are attracted to women. You choose not to have sex with men, becuase you're not attracted to them. It's a no-brainer. You don't think about men in sexual terms. It's the same for homosexuals.


...Because you're not gay! And "being sexually involved" isn't the same thing as being sexually attracted. Do you think you can choose to be sexually attracted to men?


That's called "prison rape." It has nothing to do with sexual orientation. It has to do with expression of anger.


No, we're asking YOU. Don't deflect the question.

No, there are people in prison who set up relationships, including sexual ones, that they abandon when released. It is not all playing drop the soap in the shower

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I think that, if the truth be known, you don't really believe that homosexuality is a real orientation. Just like the biblical writers. I think you think that people can just decide who flips their switch. The question has been asked: Do you choose which sex to be attracted to? It's a simple question, requiring a simple "yes" or "no" answer. If not, why not? And if not, on what reasonable (not biblical) grounds can you expect others to have that choice?

I think this is the crux of the matter. Sexual orientation is clearly not a choice, so judging people on this basis is really no different to judging people based on skin colour.

I suppose we should be grateful that the Bible authors weren't racist as well as homophobic.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Yes, I believe homosexuals make a choice,

Then what of all of the GLBT community that says it's not a choice? Do you honestly believe we have some sort of conspiracy going on that requires us to a) be informed of this conspiracy before telling anyone if we chose it or not, and b) to be completely and totally cooperative with this conspiracy? If you don't believe in such a thing, then how is it a choice when homosexuals say they made no choice, science has confirms there is no choice, heterosexuals make no choice, and how is it that anti-homosexual types, who believe there is something wrong with it, are the only ones who believe it is a choice?

Was I born a drunk and hell raiser, to be rude and disrespectful?

You went through a moment of psychological grief. They way you behaved is still within a normal range of behaviors. Not necessarily good behaviors, but what you are describing sounds very normal.

I believe very firmly in the Constitution which affords God given unalieanable rights to all people.

The Constitution does not mention god. God was not included.

Well, I don't think using part of the anatomy designed for the expulsion of waste material for sex could be considered part of the physical design,

Could you be referring to the penis? It does expel waste, afterall. Or perhaps the vagina? It too passes some waste through it, approximately once a month.

nor do I think an organ designed to be penetrated by a penis, being penetrated by something else is part of the physical design either.

Then why does it happen, easily, and without problems, and why does it cause sexual excitement, stimulation, and pleasure?

 

[shmogie]

Yes, you've mentioned that before. Do you feel that saying whatever happens to fall out of your mouth is OK, because it's "your first amendment right" and that exercising that right is more important than doing the right thing? Jesus certainly didn't think so. Neither did Paul.


No, that's incongruent with what you said before. You said that the bible trumps psychiatric science. IOW, Christians are held to a "higher" standard (the bible). What does the bible say about respecting your neighbor?


Again, that's incongruent with what you have said, for the reasons outlined above.


But words hurt on a much larger scale than than individual. They hurt systemically. We don't use the "N" word -- not particularly because it offends individuals, but because it offends our social sensibility. Saying what you say about homosexuality does the very same thing.

Wow................. I feel like I am trying to water a lawn that is of astro turf on marble, it just can't sink in. I believe in all standards of the Bible, I direct my words and actions accordingly. I cannot compel anyone to have my beliefs or standards, nor would I want to, with me so far ?, good! For those people who do not have my beliefs and standards, the default position is the Constitution, and their beliefs and actions are constrained or allowed by that standard, which apply's s to all. So, I may loathe someone using a vile racist word, because of my standards. I may totally avoid that person, because of my Biblical standards, which is my Constitutional right., I may go to that person and attempt to point out that the Bible and civil behavior are not consistent with using those words, the person may tell me to go to hell, which is their right. Finally, I would defend a persons right to free speech under the Constitution, even though it is not a right I use in the same way, and I may loathe what is said., Because if any one right can be compromised, then they all can, My freedom of religion could go, my right to own a firearm could go, my right to associate with whomever I choose could go. When Benjamin Franklin was speaking of the rebellion, he said, "gentlemen, if we do not hang together, we will certainly hang separately " It is the same with Constitutional rights. People choose to be offended, and they have that right, but they DO NOT have the right to deny someone their Constitutional rights. If what I say about homosexuals ( that it is a choice with no unassailable evidence to prove otherwise, that my denomination does not grant homosexuals full membership) offends you, I am sorry, but I have the right to believe what I believe and say what I want, and my church has the right of freedom of association., I and millions of others are offended by the gaystopo's name calling, incendiary words, calls to violence, because we are simply exercising our Constitutional rights, BUT, they have the right to say whatever they choose, my offense does not trump their right of free speech, and I would defend their right of free speech,. This is as clear as I can make it, I won';t do it again, love me or hate me, I couldn't care less

 

[shmogie]

I think this is the crux of the matter. Sexual orientation is clearly not a choice, so judging people on this basis is really no different to judging people based on skin colour.

I suppose we should be grateful that the Bible authors weren't racist as well as homophobic.

" sexual orientation is clearly not a choice":Hmmmmmmmmmm, prove it., Prove it beyond all reasonable doubt. You continue the assault on the language, by using revisionist implied meanings for words that do not mean what you are implying. A phobia is an unnatural fear, as in arachnophobia, terror at the sight of spiders. I guess there may be people who are stricken with terror in the presence of homosexuals, but I have never come across one, and the writers of the NT feared no one. So, quit displaying your ignorance, find a term that is applicable to what you are (poorly) trying to say

 

[viole]

Well, I don't think using part of the anatomy designed for the expulsion of waste material for sex could be considered part of the physical design, nor do I think an organ designed to be penetrated by a penis, being penetrated by something else is part of the physical design either. As to your questions, I can choose to do whatever I choose. There are male prostitutes who loathe what they are doing, but they like the money. Their sexual " attraction": is for females, just as they were designed

Well, there is not only male homosexuality. By the way, our canonic sexual organs are also designed for the expulsion of waste material. Which raises some questions about the designer. I mean, if I designed the way to create new immortal souls, I would not have used the same organs that emit urine. Would you have? But I digress.

And you keep using wrong analogies. I am not addressing prostitutes. I am addressing people who are not interested whatsoever to have sex with members of the opposite sex but only with members of the same sex. Do you think you could become like one of them, if you really tried?

Ciao

- viole

 

[shmogie]

Then what of all of the GLBT community that says it's not a choice? Do you honestly believe we have some sort of conspiracy going on that requires us to a) be informed of this conspiracy before telling anyone if we chose it or not, and b) to be completely and totally cooperative with this conspiracy? If you don't believe in such a thing, then how is it a choice when homosexuals say they made no choice, science has confirms there is no choice, heterosexuals make no choice, and how is it that anti-homosexual types, who believe there is something wrong with it, are the only ones who believe it is a choice?

You went through a moment of psychological grief. They way you behaved is still within a normal range of behaviors. Not necessarily good behaviors, but what you are describing sounds very normal.

The Constitution does not mention god. God was not included.

Could you be referring to the penis? It does expel waste, afterall. Or perhaps the vagina? It too passes some waste through it, approximately once a month.

Then why does it happen, easily, and without problems, and why does it cause sexual excitement, stimulation, and pleasure?

You may do and be whatever you choose, As to the science, provide proof beyond a reasonable doubt., Yes, you are correct the Constitution does not mention God given rights, but the term is clearly used in the Declaration of Independence, written by the same man, and approved by the same body. The documents are to be understood together, the first a prologue to the second. God given rights enunciated in the Constitution.

 

[shmogie]

Well, there is not only male homosexuality. By the way, our canonic sexual organs are also designed for the expulsion of waste material. Which raises some questions about the designer. I mean, if I designed the way to create new immortal souls, I would not have used the same organs that emit urine. Would you have? But I digress.

And you keep using wrong analogies. I am not addressing prostitutes. I am addressing people who are not interested whatsoever to have sex with members of the opposite sex but only with members of the same sex. Do you think you could become like one of them, if you really tried?

Ciao

- viole

Of course I could become like one of them if I really tried. Yes, I understand that there are male and female homosexuals. Please allow me to ask you a question.,Most pedophiles say they are unerringly attracted to children for sex, they say they were born with this attraction, that they cannot help themselves, and they are stigmatized for something they cannot help. The recidivism statistics are taken by some to bear this out.There is a small body of scientists that believe this is the case, and they have some evidence they think leads to that conclusion., Do you believe that this is another form of ":sexual orientation" just as powerful as any other, and if not, why not ?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You may do and be whatever you choose,

The thing is, I didn't choose. When I did make a choice, which was to "pray the gay away," I was miserable and yearning for death. After I learned to accept myself, and learned to make any choices to be anyone other than who I am, my life has been tremendously improving, in all areas.

As to the science, provide proof beyond a reasonable doubt.,

You have been provided with links. Homosexuality is not a choice - it is something that just happens.

but the term is clearly used in the Declaration of Independence

No, it doesn't. It says "creator," which is not synonymous with god, nor can it be interpreted to mean exclusively god. God was simply left out, except to say congress shall make no laws respecting the establishment of religion or prohibit the free practice thereof, and again to state that there shall be no tests of faith to hold public office.

written by the same man,

The same man who declared himself the "intellectual adversary of the clergy," who had such a problem with the religious dogma, superstition, and miracles of the Gospels that he rewrote them and completely removed them, and a man whose declared himself a Deist and described his views in such a way that they seem to strongly parallel Agnosticism.

 

[viole]

Of course I could become like one of them if I really tried.

Well, that proves you are bisexual.

Yes, I understand that there are male and female homosexuals. Please allow me to ask you a question.,Most pedophiles say they are unerringly attracted to children for sex, they say they were born with this attraction, that they cannot help themselves, and they are stigmatized for something they cannot help. The recidivism statistics are taken by some to bear this out.There is a small body of scientists that believe this is the case, and they have some evidence they think leads to that conclusion., Do you believe that this is another form of ":sexual orientation" just as powerful as any other, and if not, why not ?

Yes. I cannot choose to become a pedophile, either (I hope you cannot, either, you seem to be able to choose a lot of things). I cannot choose to be a human flesh eating psychopath, either. Therefore yes, I believe those people are born, or became what they are, for reasons outside their control. At least, in general.

Ciao

- viole

 

[SkepticThinker]

You are free to believe whatever you choose, as am I

So you don't care to address the points I brought up?

 

[SkepticThinker]

A person with a certain physical and genetic makeup is either a male or female, Based upon those physical characteristics, it is clear, what each gender is designed for re the sex act. There is no clear compelling evidence that there is a gene, inherent to homosexuals alone that unerringly compels them to a sex act that is contrary to the physical design of their body. No one is arguing that they do not have every right to do whatever floats their boat. If they choose to have sex with the exhaust pipe of a car, or a broom handle they have every right to do so. Until there is evidence that there is a gene or genetic factor that marks homosexuals different from plain old X and Y genes that can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to make them in every case where present a homosexual, then they are just men and women doing what they choose to do. Now, call me the names, stir yourself into your own fit of righteous anger, blah, blah, blah but until you bring me exactly the kind of evidence I require, I and millions and millions and millions across the globe will believe what we believe

Why compare consensual sex between adults to having sex with an exhaust pipe? How is that even remotely similar? I mean seriously, this is the kind of stuff people are talking when they point out how people demean and diminish love between two people of the same sex.

Also, I find it kind of strange that you'll apparently believe just about anything in the Bible on faith alone but you want evidence "beyond a shadow of a doubt" that people aren't born gay? Why do you have different standards for different things? And why on earth do you think people make a conscious choice to be gay? Would you make that conscious choice? Could you?

 

[SkepticThinker]

No, it's really not a choice. You don't choose what/who you're attracted to.

The thing is, everybody who has ever found themselves attracted to anyone at any point in time, should already know this. And I think they actually do.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Been down this road before, yes I believe it is a choice, a choice which may be based upon environmental or psychological factors, nevertheless a choice. No, I am not a bisexual LOL. If you propose to me a separate type of person, a homosexual, your proposal must come with emphatic genetic proof of this.

What you said here doesn't make much sense. If it's based on psychological or environmental factors, how is it a choice? Does someone also then, have a choice to be schizophrenic or to be bipolar?