Is Bin Laden Now Innocent Until Proven Guilty?

[LittlePinky82]

I am sure you are intelligent enough to understand what i mean, if you read it

here are the groups i mentioned in total

Tanzim Qaidat al-Jihad fi Bilad al-Rafidayn
Al-Qaeda in Iraq - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Al-Qaeda
Al-Qaeda - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Jama'at al-Tawhid wal- Jihad

Jama'at al-Tawhid wal-Jihad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



here is a link to wikipedia if that not good enough then feel free to research them yourself ,i only brought them to your attention, ignore it or follow it up i care not , now once again i repeat , to my knowledge there are no surveys done to ascertain the influence of these groups of people in Iraq but that does not mean that they don't exist. i mentioned them to explain to you that there are many factors and different groups in Iraq carrying out the insurgency and invited you to do some research.The choice was yours, you chose not to do so.

i did in fact mention some others later:

• Ba'athists, the supporters of Saddam Hussein's former regime including army or intelligence officers. Generally the platform for individuals with Pan-Arab theories, as is visible from traditional Ba'athist sympathy for Palestinians as well as its tendency to maintain warm relations with other Arab states.
• Nationalists, Iraqis who believe in Iraqi self-determination based on the ideas behind its creation. These policies may not necessarily espouse a Pan-Arab ideology although they do advocate traditional Iraqi sentiments such as the country's territorial integrity over Kuwait and Khusestan. Historical figures of this movement include the pre-Ba'athist leader of Iraq Abd al-Karim Qasim and his government.
• Iraqi Sunni Islamists, the indigenous armed followers of the Salafi movement, as well as any remnants of the Kurdish Ansar al-Islam: individuals with a Sunni-only policy opposed to non-Sunnis though not allined to one specific ethnic group. Though opposed to the US-led invasion, these groups are not wholly sympathetic towards the former Ba'ath Party as its members included non-Sunnis.
• Shi'a militias, including the southern, Iran-linked Badr Organization, the Mahdi Army, and the central-Iraq followers of Muqtada al-Sadr. These groups have Shia religious theries and as such, neither advocate the dominance of a single ethnic group, nor the traditional ideologies behind the Iraqi state (eg. these particular Shi'ites do not support the capture of Khustestan or other border areas with Iran, but rather promote warm relations with Iran's Shi'ite government).
• Foreign Islamist volunteers, including those often linked to al Qaeda and largely driven by the Sunni Wahhabi doctrine (the two preceding categories are often lumped as "Jihadists");
• Various socialist revolutionaries (such as the Iraqi Armed Revolutionary Resistance).
• Non-violent resistance groups and political parties (not part of the armed insurgency).

Iraqi insurgency - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



and finally the Che Guevara people Iraqi Armed Revolutionary Resistance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


once again if you wish to discuss Iraq start another thread, it used to also be unacceptable to hijack someone else's thread , but it seems times have changed

And of course you used all information from Wikipedia. LOL. The ever so wonderful place that's so reliable and yes that's sarcasm. I guess you've missed the whole argument I've been having with Auto about Wikipedia. What a joke. If you can't say something without being insulting than keep your mouth shut because I don't want to read your pathetic insults. That's a joke too.

 

[LittlePinky82]

If a police officer sees a foreigner commiting a crime, he has every right to throw that person in jail. And I doubt that a police officer would "have it in" for a foreinger. That is a very rare scenario.



They shouldn't be.

So why did you bring up the person being a foreigner? And again the officer can't arrest someone until they do a crime.

 

[kai]

And of course you used all information from Wikipedia. LOL. The ever so wonderful place that's so reliable and yes that's sarcasm. I guess you've missed the whole argument I've been having with Auto about Wikipedia. What a joke. If you can't say something without being insulting than keep your mouth shut because I don't want to read your pathetic insults. That's a joke too.

Like i said
"here is a link to wikipedia if that not good enough then feel free to research them yourself ,i only brought them to your attention, ignore it or follow it up i care not"

perhaps you have a more reliable source of general information for people to quick reference share it with us!

you seem to be insulted a lot? and when i am typing my mouth is shut ,

 

[LittlePinky82]

Like i said
"here is a link to wikipedia if that not good enough then feel free to research them yourself ,i only brought them to your attention, ignore it or follow it up i care not"

perhaps you have a more reliable source of general information for people to quick reference share it with us!

you seem to be insulted a lot? and when i am typing my mouth is shut ,

Once again for the millionth time it feels like it's not my job to do your research. YOU brought them up so it's your job to prove your points. Not mine hon. Learn how it works or don't participate.

Yes hon you are insulting and it's pathetic. Don't be a smartass. If you don't like me complaining about being insulted maybe you should stop it. Didn't the moderators talk to you about that?

 

[kai]

Once again for the millionth time it feels like it's not my job to do your research. i didnt ask you too, i suggested in my very first post concerning insurgents in Iraq you did some of your own ,you declined YOU brought them up so it's your job to prove your points. no you are asking me to prove your points Not mine hon. Learn how it works or don't participate.
take a leaf out of our own book and look up "strawman argument" try Straw man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yes hon you are insulting and it's pathetic. i dread to ask again but how and where and i will look at it again.
Don't be a smartass. If you don't like me complaining about being insulted maybe you should stop it. Didn't the moderators talk to you about that?

No why?

 

[LittlePinky82]

No why?

No hon. I'm asking you to prove YOUR points. Huge difference. As for your question I'm quoting you perhaps you should talk to the mods about it yourself. I'm not a mod.

 

[kai]

No hon. I'm asking you to prove YOUR points. Huge difference. As for your question I'm quoting you perhaps you should talk to the mods about it yourself. I'm not a mod.

after all this you are still harping on!
then lets clear up the point you are asking me to prove once and for all spell it out. right now. what is it that you want me to PROVE.

 

[LittlePinky82]

after all this you are still harping on!
then lets clear up the point you are asking me to prove once and for all spell it out. right now. what is it that you want me to PROVE.

You made the point about these groups that they are influential in Iraq with the people. I want proof from reliable resources (and no Wikipedia does not count) that these groups are influential. I mean hell you even made the post earlier that no study has been done on how influential they are. So which is it?

 

[kai]

You made the point about these groups that they are influential in Iraq with the people. I want proof from reliable resources (and no Wikipedia does not count) that these groups are influential. I mean hell you even made the post earlier that no study has been done on how influential they are. So which is it?

your generalising, and i have to get past your straw men so,which post are you refering to? lets take a look, what exactly did i say? lets start again an a civil manner.

 

[LittlePinky82]

your generalising, and i have to get past your straw men so,which post are you refering to? lets take a look, what exactly did i say? lets start again an a civil manner.

You talking about a civil manner? LOL. What a joke that is. I'm still by the way waiting for your apology of your pathetic attempts to insult me. When is that going to happen? How many freakin times do I have to say it? You made remarks about these so-called influential groups in Iraq and claimed they are very influential. You've been talking about them for the last two/three pages!!! And there is nothing strawman about it! YOU are to prove your freakin points! THAT's how it works! How if you liked it if I made a claim and made you prove it? Wouldn't like that very much now would you? Now the whole point is for you to prove your claims about these groups from reliable resources. Now is that easy enough for you or do I have to repeat myself a thousand more times? The fact you're stone walling shows you know **** what you're talking about and I should just ignore you.

 

[LittlePinky82]

I also wanted to add to Kai I want you to prove how influential these groups are. How many Iraqi's identify themselves as a part of these groups? How much of the Iraqi population identifies as members of these groups? To claim someone is influential means that they have a strong hold on the population. A president of a country having let's say a 70% rating in the polls by people is influential. A group in Iraq having a 5% influence in Iraq is not influential.

 

[kai]

You talking about a civil manner? LOL. What a joke that is. I'm still by the way waiting for your apology of your pathetic attempts to insult me. When is that going to happen? How many freakin times do I have to say it? You made remarks about these so-called influential groups in Iraq and claimed they are very influential. You've been talking about them for the last two/three pages!!! And there is nothing strawman about it! YOU are to prove your freakin points! THAT's how it works! How if you liked it if I made a claim and made you prove it? Wouldn't like that very much now would you? Now the whole point is for you to prove your claims about these groups from reliable resources. Now is that easy enough for you or do I have to repeat myself a thousand more times? The fact you're stone walling shows you know **** what you're talking about and I should just ignore you.

" I mean hell you even made the post earlier that no study has been done on how influential they are." in case you dont get it, thats a strawman i have not said that ,but you use it to argue against me. what i actually said was
"i have neither the time nor the will to trawl around looking for statistics on the influence of Islamist groups on the general pulation of Iraq because there probably has never been a study,"


and no not a thousand times just once

your generalising, and i have to get past your straw men so,which post are you refering to? lets take a look, what exactly did i say? .

 

[kai]

I also wanted to add to Kai I want you to prove how influential these groups are. How many Iraqi's identify themselves as a part of these groups? How much of the Iraqi population identifies as members of these groups? To claim someone is influential means that they have a strong hold on the population. A president of a country having let's say a 70% rating in the polls by people is influential. A group in Iraq having a 5% influence in Iraq is not influential.

you do know Iraq is three main regions, with 18 provinces so if a group has a 5% influnce in a provice then its a lot more influential than you think, but i digress and you will be asking me to prove that in a moment. the 5% was in fact a claim of yours





your generalising, and i have to get past your straw men so,which post are you refering to? lets take a look, what exactly did i say? lets start again an a civil manner.My god am i MORI or some kind of research centre , should i fly out and ask them one by one , you want a lot of info but from what post are you talking about, come on WHICH POST and WHAT EXACTLY DID I SAY and now you ask me to do more research for you , what am i your researcher? in post 251 come on!



Its easy come on, read back find the post read it ,then tell me what proof you want? about what? or whom? to back up what fact you dont agree with. if you find that difficult i could go back and do it for you , in fact i have at least twice but you ignore it, but i want to make this crystal clear, what claim it is you want me to prove?

 

[kai]

now with respect to the OP and people that wish to discuss Bin Laden and legal issues i have started a new thread in the one on one section for you to answer my simple question, and give these people some room, see you there.
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/one-one-debates/67404-kai-little-pinky82.html#post1202024

 

[MM218]

Oh, so only if he actually observes the crime being committed then? btw, does that happen often? Without a trial, how would you know whether the cop had actually witnessed the crime or not? It's not that cops have it in for any group, although there may be some cops who do. It's that they make mistakes. You know, being human and all. I gave you actual examples of foreigners arrested by the government by mistake. They spelled the guy's name wrong, kidnapped him and sent him to Jordan to be tortured. Then they realized they had the wrong guy and dropped off at the side of the road. True story. Should that be legal, in your book?



Please answer the questions I have asked you. Do you need me to repeat them?

Say a foreign student here on a visa is accidentally mistaken for a different person, and accused of a crime due to mistaken identity. Should he be entitled to any due process at all? Should he get a trial? Or should the government be able to lock him up forever without ever producing any evidence?

Cops see crimes happening often. Otherwise, there wouldn't be as many arrests.

The case of mistaken identidy is so rare that it is irrelevant. So what if it happens to one or two people? There is a cost for keeping law and order.

 

[LittlePinky82]

you do know Iraq is three main regions, with 18 provinces so if a group has a 5% influnce in a provice then its a lot more influential than you think, but i digress and you will be asking me to prove that in a moment. the 5% was in fact a claim of yours





your generalising, and i have to get past your straw men so,which post are you refering to? lets take a look, what exactly did i say? lets start again an a civil manner.My god am i MORI or some kind of research centre , should i fly out and ask them one by one , you want a lot of info but from what post are you talking about, come on WHICH POST and WHAT EXACTLY DID I SAY and now you ask for extras in post 251 come on!



Its easy come on, read back find the post read it ,then tell me what proof you want? about what? or whom? to back up what fact you dont agree with. if you find that difficult i could go back and do it for you , in fact i have at least twice but you ignore it, but i want to make this crystal clear, what claim it is you want me to prove?

You still haven't addressed my question. I asked you how influential these groups in Iraq are. You made the claim but yet still haven't addressed my question. I don't care about the rest of the crap you posted. I want to know the statistical numbers. Do you know what that is? I've told you about a million times now. How many more times do I have to repeat myself? Hon if you've been paying attention nothing I am asking you is extra or new. It's the same crap I've been repeating myself now for the last few pages. C'mon seriously. But hey I can keep repeating myself until you address what I've asked for the past few pages now. If you want I can even list the post numbers where I've been asking you the same question over and over again. Do you need to borrow my reading glasses or something?

 

[LittlePinky82]

Cops see crimes happening often. Otherwise, there wouldn't be as many arrests.

The case of mistaken identidy is so rare that it is irrelevant. So what if it happens to one or two people? There is a cost for keeping law and order.

How do you know it's rare? Is this something you can prove? And no it's not a cost of keeping law and order. If you have someone who is mistaken identity and they didn't do anything that's called unlawful arrest and you're to let them go. Other wise if you keep them for no reason and have not charged them with a crime than it's illegal.

 

[MM218]

How do you know it's rare? Is this something you can prove?

You don't hear about it much. If it was happening more often, it would be all over the news.

 

[LittlePinky82]

To Kai for your benefit. I'm going to now list each post number in this thread where I've asked you time and time again to show me proof these groups are influential with stat numbers so you can go back there and look for yourself and see that I have not changed or added anything to my request. So here they are listed in numerical order:

205
208
210
214
219
220
222
223
227
231
233
244
246
248
250
251
256

Wow Kai that's a hell of a lot of post's for me asking you to do one simple task! All of them asking for the same exact thing. Proof of how influential those groups are in Iraq. When you gave the Wiki page the most those pages talked about was tactics of the group. I didn't ask for that. You made the point that these groups are influential in Iraq. To be influential you have to have majority of the population on your side whether because you're afraid or you agree. I'll give you an example. Right now George Bush's approval rating is somewhere in the early to mid 20's which means the population as a whole does not find him influential at all and the people probably don't pay much attention to what he says if at all unless you're job is to do that whether you're a politician or work for the media in some way whether print or television or radio etc. That's not influential. After 9/11 George Bush for whatever reason had around a 90% approval rating. At that point in time everyone pretty much listened to what he had to say and his policy's had influence on the people and the politicians. See the difference of being influential? Do you get it now?

 

[kai]

You still haven't addressed my question. I asked you how influential these groups in Iraq are. You made the claim but yet still haven't addressed my question. I don't care about the rest of the crap you posted. I want to know the statistical numbers. Do you know what that is? I've told you about a million times now. How many more times do I have to repeat myself? Hon if you've been paying attention nothing I am asking you is extra or new. It's the same crap I've been repeating myself now for the last few pages. C'mon seriously. But hey I can keep repeating myself until you address what I've asked for the past few pages now. If you want I can even list the post numbers where I've been asking you the same question over and over again. Do you need to borrow my reading glasses or something?

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