Is Bin Laden Now Innocent Until Proven Guilty?

[LittlePinky82]

these are murdering scum , terryifying religious maniacs , once the Iraqi security forces can take them out i am sure they will ,right now they cant.

Hmm I wonder why that is.... Maybe because they're too busy fighting invading and occupying forces and just trying to stay a live? Nah couldn't be that....could it? (Yes it's sarcasm)

 

[kai]

I'm talking about if you are shown to be a friend to their religious beliefs and sympathetic and understanding. If you're biased, hateful etc. I'm sure they're not going to care what you think like with any religion. It helps to be understanding even if you don't agree with something. And their plight with taking back their country or having some sort of justice such as with Palestine and Israel etc. Sorry if I was confusing.

your still confusing there are so many opposing Islamic factions , mainstream sunni and Shia we can live with, those factions which adhere to Qutbism we cannot. and there are other threads for the Palestinian question

 

[kai]

Hmm I wonder why that is.... Maybe because they're too busy fighting invading and occupying forces and just trying to stay a live? Nah couldn't be that....could it? (Yes it's sarcasm)

could be but no its not , do some research
Tanzim Qaidat al-Jihad fi Bilad al-Rafidayn
Al-Qaeda
Jama'at al-Tawhid wal- Jihad

you might understand a little about whats going on there, and thats not sarcasm

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Hi Joe Stocks,

I think you're right that the Supreme Court's decision gives Bin Laden the right to habeus corpus. You've raised a good point: does this mean NATO forces are prohibited from killing him in action?

I don't think so. I think the Supreme Court's decision simply says that non-POW "detainees" at Gitmo--who were not, in general, captured as enemy soldiers on any battlefield--have the right of habeus corpus--that is, the right to appeal their detention. The right of habeus corpus is not just a foundation of American law, but a foundation of all modern law stretching back hundreds of years. The repercussions of denying habeus corpus have been well-described already on this thread.

If Bin Laden is captured, then he should stand trial--at the very least, to prove that he is Osama Bin Laden and not Bin Loden (as has been pointed out). That does not mean coalition forces cannot use lethal force against him, as long as he is directing an armed enemy group in combat. Or, as long as he is a fugitive from the law and he is considered highly dangerous/a national security threat. Either way, as armed fugitive or enemy soldier, he has had ample warning and time to surrender peacefully.

As it happens, I do hope he is captured alive and stands trial.

I think kai put it well:

he is in a combat zone leading insurgents against coalition forces if he is killed in action thereis nothng ilegal in that , if he is captured then he must stand trial. no different than an IRA terrorist or a Baader-meinhof

To answer your questions,

1. Do enemy soldiers have rights?

Yes, via the Geneva Conventions. That's why the Bush administration insists the Gitmo detainees are not enemy soldiers. The Geneva Conventions include the right not to be tortured. And one thing that tends to be overlooked: a captured "enemy soldier", or POW, has not necessarily committed any crime. Nazi POW's captured during WWII were not jailed indefinitely; they were released as soon as hostilities ceased between Germany and the Allies. Nazis who were accused of "crimes against humanity" were not summarily executed upon capture; nor were our planes prohibited from bombing their hideouts during hostilities. When captured, those Nazis who were accused of crimes beyond their role as "enemy soldiers" stood trial, not least of all to confirm their identity. Some of them were found not guilty of crimes against humanity, and released after the war ended. The same should be the case for "enemy soldiers" captured in combat with coalition forces in Afghanistan and Iraq, i.m.o.

But then, many "detainees" at Gitmo were not picked up anywhere near a battlefield and are NOT considered "enemy soldiers", not even by the Bush administration. Clearly these people should have the right to a hearing.

2. If no to question (1), do enemy soldiers get rights when they are captured by our military?

I said 'yes' to question(1), so I guess I'm off the hook here.

I would just point out that, i.m.o., some of the disagreements on this thread can be avoided when one considers the possibility that an individual can be, at once, BOTH an armed fugitive from the law, AND an enemy soldier/general. I think Bin Laden is such a case. The 9/11 attacks were a crime. Leading groups of armed men against our troops is warfare.

 

[LittlePinky82]

could be but no its not , do some research
Tanzim Qaidat al-Jihad fi Bilad al-Rafidayn
Al-Qaeda
Jama'at al-Tawhid wal- Jihad

you might understand a little about whats going on there, and thats not sarcasm

They still are not accounted for majority of Iraqi citizen's who are left there and hadn't either left the country by foot or death. You have not shown any figures.

 

[Autodidact]

Noahide:
You have a number of outstanding questions to clarify your position. Would you address some of them? Thank you.

 

[kai]

They still are not accounted for majority of Iraqi citizen's who are left there and hadn't either left the country by foot or death. You have not shown any figures.

what the hell are you talking about what figures? my point is that there are small groups in Iaq that have a very large influence on Iraqis by creating fear and sectarian hatred, If your just a proponant of US bad Insurent good without knowing what the heck is eve going on over there then its pointless talking to you.

if you want to talk about what is going on in Iraq fine but get real . and this thread is about Bin Laden i have said my opinion that if caught he should stand trial for the crmes he is accused of, if killed in action then good riddence to bad rubbish

 

[LittlePinky82]

what the hell are you talking about what figures? my point is that there are small groups in Iaq that have a very large influence on Iraqis by creating fear and sectarian hatred, If your just a proponant of US bad Insurent good without knowing what the heck is eve going on over there then its pointless talking to you.

if you want to talk about what is going on in Iraq fine but get real . and this thread is about Bin Laden i have said my opinion that if caught he should stand trial for the crmes he is accused of, if killed in action then good riddence to bad rubbish

You are talking about these radical groups in Iraq that are influential in Iraq. I'm asking you for numeric figures. What's the percentage of these groups in Iraq? 5%? 10%? What? How influential are they? You have just named groups in Iraq but have not shown how they are influential.

If this thread is about BinLadin why did you start talking about these other influential groups?

As I've said the Pentagon has even said that AlQida is accounted for 5% in Iraq and that most of the people in Iraq who are fighting them back are Iraqi's and/or Iraqi's fighting each other.

If you think you know so much about Iraq why don't you prove it? Now that I've asked you to prove it you're wanting to go back to talking about BinLadin.

 

[kai]

You are talking about these radical groups in Iraq that are influential in Iraq. I'm asking you for numeric figures. What's the percentage of these groups in Iraq? 5%? 10%? What? How influential are they? You have just named groups in Iraq but have not shown how they are influential. I named them so you could learn something i failed

If this thread is about BinLadin why did you start talking about these other influential groups? so you could learn something i failed

As I've said the Pentagon has even said that AlQida is accounted for 5% in Iraq and that most of the people in Iraq who are fighting them back are Iraqi's and/or Iraqi's fighting each other. AlQueda is only one group in Iraq so if they say 5% i wont argue with that except 5% of what?

If you think you know so much about Iraq why don't you prove it? Now that I've asked you to prove it you're wanting to go back to talking about BinLadin.

what exactly are you asking me to prove? how influential the headhunters of the tawheed al jihad are ? what do you think?
what percentage of the UK would you say belong to AlQueda , and yet they or their associates still carried out bombings and attempted bombings, they and their Friends promote sectarian and antisemitic propaganda which influence greatly outweighs the actual numbers of bona fide members. but i dont think you interested in anything i have to say. and i am waisting my time talking to an arm chair revolutionary

 

[LittlePinky82]

what exactly are you asking me to prove? how influential the headhunters of the tawheed al jihad are ? what do you think?
what percentage of the UK would you say belong to AlQueda , and yet they or their associates still carried out bombings and attempted bombings, they and their Friends promote sectarian and antisemitic propaganda which influence greatly outweighs the actual numbers of bona fide members. but i dont think you interested in anything i have to say. and i am waisting my time talking to an arm chair revolutionary

Yes that's what I want you to do. You brought them up so it's up to you to prove they are influential. It doesn't matter what I think. I'm not an Iraqi citizen. This isn't about AlQida in the UK. This is about the groups you mentioned in Iraq. This isn't about antisemitic propoganda. This is about those groups you mentioned in Iraq. An arm chair revolutionary? So asking you to prove what you are saying is now "arm chair revolutionary"? LOL! Face it. You can't prove it so now you're being insulting. Either prove what you are saying or accept your defeat and move on. You brought them up so you need to prove it. That is how an argument works hon. If asking you to prove your comments is "arm chair revolutionary" than you must be the general! LOL!!!

 

[kai]

Yes that's what I want you to do. You brought them up so it's up to you to prove they are influential. i brought them up for you to reference ignore me if you wishIt doesn't matter what I think. i am begining to think your right there I'm not an Iraqi citizen. This isn't about AlQida in the UK. yes it is they are also in IraqThis is about the groups you mentioned in Iraq. OK look them up thats why i told you about themThis isn't about antisemitic propoganda. yes its all part of their ideology This is about those groups you mentioned in Iraq. yes again An arm chair revolutionary? So asking you to prove what you are saying is now "arm chair revolutionary"? LOL! Face it. You can't prove it so now you're being insulting. i am not insulting just being descriptive Either prove what you are saying or accept your defeat and move on. You brought them up so you need to prove it.I brought them up because you didnt even know they existed That is how an argument works hon. If asking you to prove your comments is "arm chair revolutionary" than you must be the general! LOL!!!

i shouldnt have to prove it it should be self evident its like saying but the IRA was only 5% of the population of Ulster so they didnt have much influence but ok i will treat you like a child. and no i only reached sergeant didnt quite get to general. But i have been to Iraq and bring some first hand experience to the discusion.

Ok as you seem to lack the basic knowledge of life and death in Iraq and i have neither the time nor the will to trawl around looking for statistics on the influence of Islamist groups on the general pulation of Iraq because there probably has never been a study,

i listed them so you look them up and learn something about Iraq, theres lots more ,Alqueda is one group operating in iraq and also the UK. This is how the argument works you say that because they are not massed armies and even the pentagon say they are only 5%they have little influence ( and this from a communist) I say they do , if i am wrong then you prove it, are you saying they dont exist? are you saying they are inconsequential to the iraqi problem? then explain why? Feel free to start another thread although there are lots of them about Iraq if you care to look.

 

[MM218]

Again, to clarify. You go on vacation to Mexico. The Mexican police mistakenly believe you were smuggling drugs. They should be able to arrest you and lock you up with no trial, no contact with your embassy, no lawyer, and no charges? That's what you're advocating?

Police don't just randomly arrest people. They need to have a warrant.

Here's what I think we should do: if police are certain that a foreigner is involved with illegal activities, they should either (depending on how severe the charges are) A: throw the criminal in jail, or B: send them back home to be prosecuted.

 

[Storm]

Police don't just randomly arrest people. They need to have a warrant.

Here's what I think we should do: if police are certain that a foreigner is involved with illegal activities, they should either (depending on how severe the charges are) A: throw the criminal in jail, or B: send them back home to be prosecuted.

You can get a warrant without proving guilt.

 

[LittlePinky82]

i shouldnt have to prove it it should be self evident its like saying but the IRA was only 5% of the population of Ulster so they didnt have much influence but ok i will treat you like a child. and no i only reached sergeant didnt quite get to general. But i have been to Iraq and bring some first hand experience to the discusion.

Ok as you seem to lack the basic knowledge of life and death in Iraq and i have neither the time nor the will to trawl around looking for statistics on the influence of Islamist groups on the general pulation of Iraq because there probably has never been a study,

i listed them so you look them up and learn something about Iraq, theres lots more ,Alqueda is one group operating in iraq and also the UK. This is how the argument works you say that because they are not massed armies and even the pentagon say they are only 5%they have little influence ( and this from a communist) I say they do , if i am wrong then you prove it, are you saying they dont exist? are you saying they are inconsequential to the iraqi problem? then explain why? Feel free to start another thread although there are lots of them about Iraq if you care to look.

You don't know how an argument/debate works do you? If you bring something up and another person asks you to prove your points than it's your job to provide the information. It's not my job to google it or anything like that. They are YOUR arguments. So either back up your points and prove it or accept you don't know what in the hell you're talking about and take back your insulting and pathetic "insults." So either do it or stop acting like a holier than thou know-it-all.

I don't care if you've been to Iraq or not. That is not the point of it. The point is that you started out of nowhere talking about some groups people in general are not familiar with (unless you have ties to Iraq somehow) and so it's YOUR DAMN job to PROVE IT! So either prove it and provide some actual damn facts or shut the hell up.

So because you do not have "the time" to prove YOUR points than do NOT bring them up into an argument. What makes you think I have time to do your ******* argument for you? I have a damn life myself hon. Unlike some people in the world I don't sit on my damn *** all day on the internet. I have other things to do. So if you are ever going to bring up a ******* "point" than PROVE IT with actual facts. For all I know you're making it up. That's why you prove it. Understand how an argument/debate works?

What in God's green earth does me being a ******* Communist have to do with anything? Yes I'm a Commie! GET OVER IT! I'm proud to be a Communist so don't you dare try to insult me with that crap! It's not my damn fault you can't prove your argument! And hon calling someone a Communist is not an insult if YOU ARE ONE!!!

YOU BROUGHT THESE GROUPS UP. I ASKED YOU TO PROVE IT. DO IT OR ACCEPT YOU CAN'T AND MOVE ON! Learn how a damn argument works!

 

[LittlePinky82]

Police don't just randomly arrest people. They need to have a warrant.

Here's what I think we should do: if police are certain that a foreigner is involved with illegal activities, they should either (depending on how severe the charges are) A: throw the criminal in jail, or B: send them back home to be prosecuted.

You can not arrest a person until they do an actual offensive action. Other wise that's ILLEGAL.

 

[LittlePinky82]

You don't know how an argument/debate works do you? If you bring something up and another person asks you to prove your points than it's your job to provide the information. It's not my job to google it or anything like that. They are YOUR arguments. So either back up your points and prove it or accept you don't know what in the hell you're talking about and take back your insulting and pathetic "insults." So either do it or stop acting like a holier than thou know-it-all.

I don't care if you've been to Iraq or not. That is not the point of it. The point is that you started out of nowhere talking about some groups people in general are not familiar with (unless you have ties to Iraq somehow) and so it's YOUR DAMN job to PROVE IT! So either prove it and provide some actual damn facts or shut the hell up.

So because you do not have "the time" to prove YOUR points than do NOT bring them up into an argument. What makes you think I have time to do your ******* argument for you? I have a damn life myself hon. Unlike some people in the world I don't sit on my damn *** all day on the internet. I have other things to do. So if you are ever going to bring up a ******* "point" than PROVE IT with actual facts. For all I know you're making it up. That's why you prove it. Understand how an argument/debate works?

What in God's green earth does me being a ******* Communist have to do with anything? Yes I'm a Commie! GET OVER IT! I'm proud to be a Communist so don't you dare try to insult me with that crap! It's not my damn fault you can't prove your argument! And hon calling someone a Communist is not an insult if YOU ARE ONE!!!

YOU BROUGHT THESE GROUPS UP. I ASKED YOU TO PROVE IT. DO IT OR ACCEPT YOU CAN'T AND MOVE ON! Learn how a damn argument works!

I also just realized you totally contradicted yourself as well. One minute you are claiming these other groups are so influential on the Iraqi people but yet in the post I'm quoting you than you turn around and say you do not know because there hasn't been any stats on the groups. So how in the hell can you claim these groups are so influential if you have no facts to back it up? LOL! That's ******* hilarious! You just admitted YOU DO NOT KNOW how influential they are. Thank you for proving my point!

 

[kai]

You don't know how an argument/debate works do you? If you bring something up and another person asks you to prove your points than it's your job to provide the information. It's not my job to google it or anything like that. They are YOUR arguments. So either back up your points and prove it or accept you don't know what in the hell you're talking about and take back your insulting and pathetic "insults." So either do it or stop acting like a holier than thou know-it-all.

you brought it up post 149 its not my fault you have never heard of the Iraqi insurgents other than AlQueda i thought you were talking from a knowledgeable standpoint

I don't care if you've been to Iraq or not. That is not the point of it. The point is that you started out of nowhere talking about some groups people in general are not familiar with (unless you have ties to Iraq somehow) and so it's YOUR DAMN job to PROVE IT! So either prove it and provide some actual damn facts or shut the hell up.

i was responding to your post 149 again not my fault you don't know much about Iraq

So because you do not have "the time" to prove YOUR points than do NOT bring them up into an argument. What makes you think I have time to do your ******* argument for you? I have a damn life myself hon. Unlike some people in the world I don't sit on my damn *** all day on the internet. I have other things to do. So if you are ever going to bring up a ******* "point" than PROVE IT with actual facts. For all I know you're making it up. That's why you prove it. Understand how an argument/debate works?

my my you have lost control haven't you remind me again what was my *******point i think you have lost it. (my *******point that is)

What in God's green earth does me being a ******* Communist have to do with anything? Yes I'm a Commie! GET OVER IT! I'm proud to be a Communist so don't you dare try to insult me with that crap! It's not my damn fault you can't prove your argument! And hon calling someone a Communist is not an insult if YOU ARE ONE!!!

your lack of knowledge of the influence of ideology leads me to believe you are an armchair communist( Armchair----- where i live it means someone who talks the talk but hasn't walked the walk) and i am sorry if you haven't the self confidence, it was an observation an opinion i may be wrong and you do actually live or have lived in some communist manner.

YOU BROUGHT THESE GROUPS UP. I ASKED YOU TO PROVE IT. DO IT OR ACCEPT YOU CAN'T AND MOVE ON! Learn how a damn argument works!

you have lost the continuity of the thread i brought up the groups to explain that Alqueda may only be 5% of something (you still haven't answered that one yet. post 149) but they are not the only foreign ideological group in Iraq. now you could do with learning some manners, and i debate not argue it comes with maturity. if you cant conduct yourself properly then our debate is over

 

[kai]

I also just realized you totally contradicted yourself as well. One minute you are claiming these other groups are so influential on the Iraqi people but yet in the post I'm quoting you than you turn around and say you do not know because there hasn't been any stats on the groups. So how in the hell can you claim these groups are so influential if you have no facts to back it up? LOL! That's ******* hilarious! You just admitted YOU DO NOT KNOW how influential they are. Thank you for proving my point!

.

you are the one claming they are not influential, then you asked me to prove they are, i just stated there were groups there other than Al Queda so you had a gleaning of information about the subject you were talking about , again you have lost the run of the thread, post 203 read it again

Originally Posted by LittlePinky82
Hmm I wonder why that is.... Maybe because they're too busy fighting invading and occupying forces and just trying to stay a live? Nah couldn't be that....could it? (Yes it's sarcasm)
could be but no its not , do some research
Tanzim Qaidat al-Jihad fi Bilad al-Rafidayn
Al-Qaeda
Jama'at al-Tawhid wal- Jihad

you might understand a little about whats going on there, and thats not sarcasm

now i will repeat myself there are many different reasons for insurgency in Iraq various groups of different sizes with different aims and ideologies, Baathists, nationalists, islamists,Sunni and Shia separatists, and even socialist revolutionaries who pass out pictures of Che Guavara (i kid you not), and yes Al Queda ,and the other groups i mentioned. spend some time learning about it, its good to know something about a subject when you debate it. although as i said this is the wrong thread.

 

[LittlePinky82]

you have lost the continuity of the thread i brought up the groups to explain that Alqueda may only be 5% of something (you still haven't answered that one yet. post 149) but they are not the only foreign ideological group in Iraq. now you could do with learning some manners, and i debate not argue it comes with maturity. if you cant conduct yourself properly then our debate is over

And you have not done what I've asked which is to PROVE these groups are influential in Iraq. You even just admitted that you have no freakin clue because there are no stats. So you're pulling crap out of your ***. And you are in no position to talk about "maturity." You don't even know how a debate works. So either prove it or move the hell on. You could have already done that by now but the fact you're now just arguing about b.s. shows me YOU CAN'T so my point was proven by your lack of proving your statement about these other groups. I'm not going to do your work for you. Do it yourself and if you can't than admit it and move the hell on. LOL about you talking about manners after personally attacking me for my political beliefs and trying to make being a Commie a bad thing. LOL!

 

[LittlePinky82]

.

you are the one claming they are not influential, then you asked me to prove they are, i just stated there were groups there other than Al Queda so you had a gleaning of information about the subject you were talking about , again you have lost the run of the thread, post 203 read it again


now i will repeat myself there are many different reasons for insurgency in Iraq various groups of different sizes with different aims and ideologies, Baathists, nationalists, islamists,Sunni and Shia separatists, and even socialist revolutionaries who pass out pictures of Che Guavara (i kid you not), and yes Al Queda ,and the other groups i mentioned. spend some time learning about it, its good to know something about a subject when you debate it. although as i said this is the wrong thread.

No really about Che? (Sarcasm) If you knew anything about Che you'd know it makes sense with what is going on there. Che was a major influence on the Cuban people getting their freedom and becoming their own country. So get a clue.

"Good to know about a subject when you debate it"? LOL! That's rich coming from you! You can't even prove your own freakin points! All you are doing is rambling about crap. So again I say either prove it with some ACTUAL DAMN FACTS and numbers or move the hell on and admit you can't prove it. A random stranger on the internet rambling on a message forum is not you proving it. Just because you claim something means garbage. I can claim the clouds today are made out of cotton candy! But can I prove it? No so thus you shouldn't make a claim you can't prove. Something you need to learn. Prove it or accept you're pulling it from your ***.