Is Bin Laden Now Innocent Until Proven Guilty?

[kai]

And you have not done what I've asked which is to PROVE these groups are influential in Iraq. You even just admitted that you have no freakin clue because there are no stats. So you're pulling crap out of your ***. And you are in no position to talk about "maturity." You don't even know how a debate works. So either prove it or move the hell on. You could have already done that by now but the fact you're now just arguing about b.s. shows me YOU CAN'T so my point was proven by your lack of proving your statement about these other groups. I'm not going to do your work for you. Do it yourself and if you can't than admit it and move the hell on. LOL about you talking about manners after personally attacking me for my political beliefs and trying to make being a Commie a bad thing. LOL!

never made a dent did i ?

good bye and good luck

 

[LittlePinky82]

.

you are the one claming they are not influential, then you asked me to prove they are, i just stated there were groups there other than Al Queda so you had a gleaning of information about the subject you were talking about , again you have lost the run of the thread, post 203 read it again





now i will repeat myself there are many different reasons for insurgency in Iraq various groups of different sizes with different aims and ideologies, Baathists, nationalists, islamists,Sunni and Shia separatists, and even socialist revolutionaries who pass out pictures of Che Guavara (i kid you not), and yes Al Queda ,and the other groups i mentioned. spend some time learning about it, its good to know something about a subject when you debate it. although as i said this is the wrong thread.

No hon. That's not how it works. I didn't bring them up. You did. You brought up these groups and said how these groups were influential. I asked you to prove these groups you mentioned were so influential in Iraq by bringing in some facts and stats numbers on these groups. How many Iraqi's identify themselves as a part of these groups? You have yet to prove this. You're just rambling on and on and on and avoiding providing information which shows me that you can't. You even went so far in one post of yours to say that there was never any study done on these groups and how influential they are. So please tell me: how can you claim they are so influential in Iraq when you than turn around and say you have no idea because there isn't any stats number wise? It makes no sense at all to one minute claim how influential they are and than to turn around and claim they aren't.

The only group I mentioned in Iraq was AlQida and how the Pentagon has even said they only account for 5% in Iraq. That's all I said about this group. I also said that Iraqi's will more than likely kick them out of their country (or at least put a strong hold on them) themselves once we leave and I was going by the history that Iraq is a moderate Muslim country compared to their neighbors because before the invasion and occupation women could drive, work, go to school, other religions could worship etc. Of course other political parties being involved in the government was a no-no and human right issues but still they were not a fundamentalist country like a lot of their neighbors.

So I ask you again about all those groups you mentioned, and you did it again in this post, I want you to prove how influential they are. Give me numbers. If you can't do that than you are in no position what so ever to talk about other people's intelligence and debate manners because you can't even do that simple task. I'm not going to do it because it's you talking about these groups and brought them up in the first place. If you can't provide the information than don't bring it up until you can.

 

[LittlePinky82]

never made a dent did i ?

good bye and good luck

Still not proving these groups are influential. Why should I do your work? You brought them up not me. Oh and if you aren't talking to me anymore than good. I don't have to put up with someone who doesn't know how to debate and personally attacks someone!

 

[kai]

Still not proving these groups are influential. Why should I do your work? You brought them up not me. Oh and if you aren't talking to me anymore than good. I don't have to put up with someone who doesn't know how to debate and personally attacks someone!

you are not debating you are haranguing, you are for reasons of your own ignoring my posts.
If you cant grasp my point then i no longer wish to repeat it on and on,
Have it your way they do not influence anyone and short of going to Iraq and taking a poll i cannot give you what you ask for , so you win they dont influence anyone ,
well done you have done a rare thing ,you have reinforced your own ignorance.
you have succesfully set up your straw man and i have knocked it down for you. well done. give yourself a pat on the back, but you will have to excuse my mirth.



now wheres the personal attack?

 

[Autodidact]

Police don't just randomly arrest people. They need to have a warrant.

Not necessarily. (I am a lawyer and can explain at greater length if you need.) In any case, think hard here: why do they need a warrant? That's right--the Constitution--that thing that you say only applies to citizens. So under your reasoning, they could arrest your cousin with no warrant.

It would be helpful, by the way, if you would answer my questions.

So the police don't ever make mistakes? They never arrest innocent people? Why do we bother having courts at all then?

Here's what I think we should do: if police are certain that a foreigner is involved with illegal activities, they should either (depending on how severe the charges are) A: throw the criminal in jail, or B: send them back home to be prosecuted.

And how can they be certain, if the person never has a chance to present the evidence that would exonerate them?

Have you really thought this through?

 

[Reverend Rick]

(I am a lawyer and can explain at greater length if you need.)

I did not know you are a lawyer!

In any case, think hard here: why do they need a warrant? That's right--the Constitution--that thing that you say only applies to citizens. So under your reasoning, they could arrest your cousin with no warrant.

I'm not a lawyer, (but I did stay at a Holiday Express last night).

I always thought that the Constitution applied to ANYONE on American soil.

 

[LittlePinky82]

you are not debating you are haranguing, you are for reasons of your own ignoring my posts.
If you cant grasp my point then i no longer wish to repeat it on and on,
Have it your way they do not influence anyone and short of going to Iraq and taking a poll i cannot give you what you ask for , so you win they dont influence anyone ,
well done you have done a rare thing ,you have reinforced your own ignorance.
you have succesfully set up your straw man and i have knocked it down for you. well done. give yourself a pat on the back, but you will have to excuse my mirth.



now wheres the personal attack?

Nope. I'm not ignoring your posts. I'm pointing out the fact you still have not proven that these groups you for some unknown reason mentioned in Iraq are influential. Where are the stats and numbers they are influential? You then turned around and ADMITTED! you do not know because no study has ever been done on how influential these groups are. So which is it? Are these groups influential or not? And if you claim they are than PROVE it.

Oh I see now. So asking you to do the damn work on proving your point is now not educating myself? LOL! You made the damn claim so it's your freakin job to prove it. That is the point of the argument.

I'm done with you with this thread until you do what I asked you to do so many pages back. I'm not going to debate with someone who doesn't even know how a freakin debate works. Yet I'm the ignorant one.

 

[LittlePinky82]

I did not know you are a lawyer! I'm not a lawyer, (but I did stay at a Holiday Express last night).

I always thought that the Constitution applied to ANYONE on American soil.

The Constitution does. It also applies to anyone who is on US territory. Anywhere that the US is under control of whether here in the States or Guantanamo Bay.

 

[kai]

Nope. I'm not ignoring your posts. I'm pointing out the fact you still have not proven that these groups you for some unknown reason mentioned in Iraq are influential. Where are the stats and numbers they are influential? i don't know where they are why do you need them do you dispute my claims? You then turned around and ADMITTED! you do not know because no study has ever been done on how influential these groups are. No i said there has probably been no study done, which wouldn't surprise me in the circumstances which is it? Are these groups influential or not? And if you claim they are than PROVE it. yes they are .I cannot prove it other than by my own experience and testimony so if you are disputing my claim then provide evidence to do so or take it on face value or do as i suggested in the post and look them up.

Oh I see now. So asking you to do the damn work on proving your point is now not educating myself? LOL! You made the damn claim so it's your freakin job to prove it. That is the point of the argument. No you invented the argument its a straw man,if you don't agree with my claim then refute it ,prove your point if you have one

I'm done with you with this thread until you do what I asked you to do so many pages back. I'm not going to debate with someone who doesn't even know how a freakin debate works. Yet I'm the ignorant one.

*edited by staff*
you fabricated an argument from an informative post written with my own personal evidence based on being on the ground in Iraq, and instead of refuting it you set up a strawman argument.

you requested some kind of statistics and i am unable to find any so what does that prove , it proves i cant find any statistics nothing else.

like i said you have reinforced your own ignorance, pity for a while ithought you had somethng to give, you certainly have a lot to learn.

and you accued me of a personal attack where is it ,thats the second time i have asked
its not my thread or topic and its kind of rude to hijack it. my apolagies to the OP and Joe stocks for being part of doing so.

 

[Autodidact]

I did not know you are a lawyer! I'm not a lawyer, (but I did stay at a Holiday Express last night).

I always thought that the Constitution applied to ANYONE on American soil.

Give that conservative a cigar.

 

[LittlePinky82]

*edited by Staff*
you fabricated an argument from an informative post written with my own personal evidence based on being on the ground in Iraq, and instead of refuting it you set up a strawman argument.

you requested some kind of statistics and i am unable to find any so what does that prove , it proves i cant find any statistics nothing else.

like i said you have reinforced your own ignorance, pity for a while ithought you had somethng to give, you certainly have a lot to learn.

and you accued me of a personal attack where is it ,thats the second time i have asked
its not my thread or topic and its kind of rude to hijack it. my apolagies to the OP and Joe stocks for being part of doing so.

Hmm it seems like to me you're just talking about yourself.

It proves that you have no grounds on which you can call me ignorant, arrogant etc. because you can not do a simple task which I've asked you to do. YOU are the one who brought up these other groups which most Americans, including myself, have never heard of before. So because you have apparently heard of some groups in Iraq that I have not, and again YOU are the one who brought them up in the first place, it's YOUR job to prove they are influential or not. How dare you personally insult me and my intelligence. All you had to do is simply state that you don't know what you are talking about with these groups and you have no freakin idea how influential or not they are. You should apologize to me for personally attacking me and my intelligence with your holier than thou b.s.

Again YOU brought these groups up out of nowhere and I asked you the simple task of proving what you claimed as fact. Instead you turned it into an insulting attack on another person's intelligence. I feel really sorry for you if that's all you know how to do. And again I'm damn proud to be a communist so you can keep your pathetic try at insulting me to yourself. I don't give a damn about your pathetic insults. You are nothing to me so keep them to yourself. You can choose to waste your time but I'm not.

YOUR WHOLE POST IM QUOTING IS A PERSONAL ATTACK!!! You're insulting me and my intelligence because YOU couldn't do something and admit that you have no freakin idea what you were talking about! YOU are the one who needs to grow up and learn! Take your own damn advice before you try to give it to someone else and I spit on your advice.

 

[kai]

Hmm it seems like to me you're just talking about yourself.

It proves that you have no grounds on which you can call me ignorant, arrogant etc. because you can not do a simple task which I've asked you to do. YOU are the one who brought up these other groups which most Americans, including myself, have never heard of before. So because you have apparently heard of some groups in Iraq that I have not, and again YOU are the one who brought them up in the first place, it's YOUR job to prove they are influential or not. No i was unaware how ignorant you were of who it was your troops are fighting not many people take the trouble to find out about Iraq i gave you the opportunity but you didnt take it up . How dare you personally insult me and my intelligence. why who are you? you have shown me by your abusive posts and *** type expletives that you are not interested in an informative debate All you had to do is simply state that you don't know what you are talking about with these groups and you have no freakin idea how influential or not they are. i know a lot about these groups and i know how influential they are but you asked for information that is unavailable to my knowledge, you haven't Even tried to find out if they exist or not, the absence of a statistic on their influence which you requested has no bearing on whether they are real or not. You should apologize to me for personally attacking me and my intelligence with your holier than thou b.s. and you have decided to ignore a simple task they i rwquested you to do which is the fact that there is more going on i Ira than al Queda and too look it up you decided you didnt need to know and still dont (isnt that what i precisely requested you to do? i have given you some examples of non Alqueda groups and told you to look them up, you refused ) you didnt even find it intersting in the socialist group i mentoned that handed out leaflets with Che on, i have no statistics for their influence on whoever? about whatever? either but they are there .

Again YOU brought these groups up out of nowhere and I asked you the simple task of proving what you claimed as fact. they are not out of nowhere they are in Iraq are you disputing they exist? is that why you have thrown your dummy out of the pram ? Instead you turned it into an insulting attack on another person's intelligence. I feel really sorry for you if that's all you know how to do. And again I'm damn proud to be a communist so you can keep your pathetic try at insulting me to yourself. I don't give a damn about your pathetic insults. You are nothing to me so keep them to yourself. You can choose to waste your time but I'm not. Obviously Iraq is not worthy of your attention pity as your country is in a war i thought you might like to know who against . and be a communist if you like ,who cares in this day and age? its a bit old hat for me.

YOUR WHOLE POST IM QUOTING IS A PERSONAL ATTACK!!! You're insulting me and my intelligence because YOU couldn't do something and admit that you have no freakin idea what you were talking about! YOU are the one who needs to grow up and learn! Take your own damn advice before you try to give it to someone else and I spit on your advice.

once again you just ignore my posts and are abusive , you haven't given any advice and i never spit on the advice of others i do not debate with such people so this useless conversation is over. one day you may have enough interest in the war in Iraq to have a look and see whats going on. you may even look into the groups i posted what have you got to lose except knowledge?

Originally Posted by LittlePinky82
But they are only 5% there so how could that have any type of influence?


are you joking? or do you know nothing of what goes on in Iraq?

there is a particularly nasty group of individuals that operate in Iraq called Tanzim Qaidat al-Jihad fi Bilad al-Rafidayn

this group is very small way less Than 5% of the population but its two favorite methods of promoting its ideological goals are to suicide bomb crowded areas and behead people, this makes them probably one of the most feared groups in Iraq.


you would be amazed how much the beheading of your village elder would influence a whole village. or the effect blowing up a Shia Mosque would have on the whole of southern Iraq.


theres my original post the offer still stands (do some research) and if you still have an axe to grind have some manners and start another thread

 

[LittlePinky82]

once again you just ignore my posts and are abusive , you haven't given any advice and i never spit on the advice of others i do not debate with such people so this useless conversation is over. one day you may have enough interest in the war in Iraq to have a look and see whats going on. you may even look into the groups i posted what have you got to lose except knowledge?

Originally Posted by LittlePinky82
But they are only 5% there so how could that have any type of influence?


are you joking? or do you know nothing of what goes on in Iraq?

there is a particularly nasty group of individuals that operate in Iraq called Tanzim Qaidat al-Jihad fi Bilad al-Rafidayn

this group is very small way less Than 5% of the population but its two favorite methods of promoting its ideological goals are to suicide bomb crowded areas and behead people, this makes them probably one of the most feared groups in Iraq.


you would be amazed how much the beheading of your village elder would influence a whole village. or the effect blowing up a Shia Mosque would have on the whole of southern Iraq.


theres my original post the offer still stands (do some research) and if you still have an axe to grind have some manners and start another thread

What are you talking about?! You are the only person here who has been abusive. I have NEVER insulted your intelligence like you have and for some unknown reason brought up my political beliefs and try to insult me with them. Challenging you is not abusive hon. It's how a freakin argument works! You can't just go around and spew whatever the hell you want. If someone disagrees or if you don't provide any factual evidence for your claims people are going to call you on it. Again that's how a debate works! You are the one who should be apologizing to me for being so damn holier than thou and insulting! Never have I insulted your intelligence. I simply asked you to prove what you were saying was factual and you still have not done so. All you have done is said you have no proof of your claims so thus your claims are bogus b.s. Grow some thicker damn skin.

No hon. Once again YOU brought up these groups and YOU are to prove it. You've already said that there's no factual bases on your claims because no study has been done. So if no study has been done how in the hell can you claim these groups are so influential? Answer: YOU CAN'T! You don't know! Nobody does! As even you stated no study has been done! Doy! Common freakin sense! Use it!

I guess the Pentagon doesn't know anything about Iraq than either right? The number I got on AlQida in Iraq is from the Pentagon. If you know the true answer than prove it. Just because you claim something doesn't make it true. Duh.

What? Why do I care about this unknown group? You're also contradicting yourself. One minute you claim they are less than 5% in Iraq but then turn around and say they are the most feared and influential. Oh and again where's the proof? Where's the citations? Do you know what a citation is? I want to see where you're getting this information. Yourself is not a reliable resource because you're a stranger on the internet who means nothing to me.

No hon I'm not going to do the research. YOU brought them up so it's YOUR duty to show the evidence of which you are claiming. Cite where you're getting your information. Have you ever written a college paper? If this is how you do (or did) college papers did you ever pass? You wouldn't pass from my professors. Not only do you not cite your "information" but you have very poor grammar which makes it hard to follow whatever the hell you're saying. You have horrible run-on sentences and everything. Oh and on edit I'm going to keep asking you to prove your damn claims until you do. If you could have you would have done so already by doing a simple google search. The point is YOU brought them up so it's YOUR job. I have a life so I'm not going to do your homework for you. If you're oh so smart on Iraq it shouldn't be this damn difficult for you. And PLEASE learn how to do better grammar. I'm not perfect but damn it's hard to follow what the hell you're saying with all your run-on sentences and no paragraphs.

 

[MM218]

You can not arrest a person until they do an actual offensive action. Other wise that's ILLEGAL.

What I'm saying is that if a foreigner commits an offensive action, they should just be thrown in jail. I'm not saying that the police should arrest people at random.

 

[Autodidact]

What I'm saying is that if a foreigner commits an offensive action, they should just be thrown in jail. I'm not saying that the police should arrest people at random.

And what I'm saying is, without due process, how do you know whether the foreigner has committed the offensive action at all? Just because someone said so? What if a police officer has it is for someone. Can he just arrest him and never have to go before a court to justify it?

Would you please answer the several questions I have asked you? thank you.

 

[LittlePinky82]

What I'm saying is that if a foreigner commits an offensive action, they should just be thrown in jail. I'm not saying that the police should arrest people at random.

So what does them being a foreigner have to do with anything? They are treated the same as any other citizen.

 

[kai]

What are you talking about?! You are the only person here who has been abusive. telling someone to "shut the Hell up " is abusive and the rules must have changed because i can remember when *******swearing was not tolerated here and i find people doing that offensive the same as if they swore at me in person I have NEVER insulted your intelligence like you have and for some unknown reason brought up my political beliefs and try to insult me with them. not interested in your political beliefs and i don't think i insulted you Challenging you is not abusive hon. It's how a freakin argument works! I hate arguing i like to debate You can't just go around and spew whatever the hell you want. but you can it seems If someone disagrees or if you don't provide any factual evidence for your claims people are going to call you on it. Again that's how a debate works! You are the one who should be apologizing to me for being so damn holier than thou and insulting! I am far from holy and tell me what insulted you and i will look at it againNever have I insulted your intelligence. I simply asked you to prove what you were saying was factual and you still have not done so. All you have done is said you have no proof of your claims so thus your claims are bogus b.s. Grow some thicker damn skin. this makes no sense, you have asked me for statistics on the influence of the groups i mentioned, i have already told you several times i know of no statistics, and those statistics have no bearing on those groups existence, i merely claim these groups exist and operate in Iraq.

No hon. Once again YOU brought up these groups and YOU are to prove it. You've already said that there's no factual bases on your claims because no study has been done. So if no study has been done how in the hell can you claim these groups are so influential? Answer: YOU CAN'T! You don't know! Nobody does! As even you stated no study has been done! Doy! Common freakin sense! Use it! , you miss state my claims then argue against them thats a straw-man argument

I guess the Pentagon doesn't know anything about Iraq than either right? The number I got on AlQida in Iraq is from the Pentagon. If you know the true answer than prove it. Just because you claim something doesn't make it true. Duh. again what are you talking about i haven't mentioned the pentagon claims, yet you use it as a argument against me another straw man

What? Why do I care about this unknown group? You're also contradicting yourself. One minute you claim they are less than 5% in Iraq but then turn around and say they are the most feared and influential. Oh and again where's the proof? Where's the citations? Do you know what a citation is? I want to see where you're getting this information. Yourself is not a reliable resource because you're a stranger on the internet who means nothing to me. again you are misquoting me and arguing against the misquote, read the post again i have posted it several times.

No hon I'm not going to do the research. YOU brought them up so it's YOUR duty to show the evidence of which you are claiming. Cite where you're getting your information. Have you ever written a college paper? If this is how you do (or did) college papers did you ever pass? You wouldn't pass from my professors. Not only do you not cite your "information" but you have very poor grammar which makes it hard to follow whatever the hell you're saying. sorry left school at 16 joined the army not much of an education You have horrible run-on sentences and everything. Oh and on edit I'm going to keep asking you to prove your damn claims until you do. If you could have you would have done so already by doing a simple google search. The point is YOU brought them up so it's YOUR job. I have a life so I'm not going to do your homework for you. If you're oh so smart on Iraq it shouldn't be this damn difficult for you. And PLEASE learn how to do better grammar. I'm not perfect but damn it's hard to follow what the hell you're saying with all your run-on sentences and no paragraphs.

I am sure you are intelligent enough to understand what i mean, if you read it

here are the groups i mentioned in total

Tanzim Qaidat al-Jihad fi Bilad al-Rafidayn
Al-Qaeda in Iraq - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Al-Qaeda
Al-Qaeda - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Jama'at al-Tawhid wal- Jihad

Jama'at al-Tawhid wal-Jihad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



here is a link to wikipedia if that not good enough then feel free to research them yourself ,i only brought them to your attention, ignore it or follow it up i care not , now once again i repeat , to my knowledge there are no surveys done to ascertain the influence of these groups of people in Iraq but that does not mean that they don't exist. i mentioned them to explain to you that there are many factors and different groups in Iraq carrying out the insurgency and invited you to do some research.The choice was yours, you chose not to do so.

i did in fact mention some others later:

• Ba'athists, the supporters of Saddam Hussein's former regime including army or intelligence officers. Generally the platform for individuals with Pan-Arab theories, as is visible from traditional Ba'athist sympathy for Palestinians as well as its tendency to maintain warm relations with other Arab states.
• Nationalists, Iraqis who believe in Iraqi self-determination based on the ideas behind its creation. These policies may not necessarily espouse a Pan-Arab ideology although they do advocate traditional Iraqi sentiments such as the country's territorial integrity over Kuwait and Khusestan. Historical figures of this movement include the pre-Ba'athist leader of Iraq Abd al-Karim Qasim and his government.
• Iraqi Sunni Islamists, the indigenous armed followers of the Salafi movement, as well as any remnants of the Kurdish Ansar al-Islam: individuals with a Sunni-only policy opposed to non-Sunnis though not allined to one specific ethnic group. Though opposed to the US-led invasion, these groups are not wholly sympathetic towards the former Ba'ath Party as its members included non-Sunnis.
• Shi'a militias, including the southern, Iran-linked Badr Organization, the Mahdi Army, and the central-Iraq followers of Muqtada al-Sadr. These groups have Shia religious theries and as such, neither advocate the dominance of a single ethnic group, nor the traditional ideologies behind the Iraqi state (eg. these particular Shi'ites do not support the capture of Khustestan or other border areas with Iran, but rather promote warm relations with Iran's Shi'ite government).
• Foreign Islamist volunteers, including those often linked to al Qaeda and largely driven by the Sunni Wahhabi doctrine (the two preceding categories are often lumped as "Jihadists");
• Various socialist revolutionaries (such as the Iraqi Armed Revolutionary Resistance).
• Non-violent resistance groups and political parties (not part of the armed insurgency).

Iraqi insurgency - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



and finally the Che Guevara people Iraqi Armed Revolutionary Resistance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


once again if you wish to discuss Iraq start another thread, it used to also be unacceptable to hijack someone else's thread , but it seems times have changed

 

[MM218]

And what I'm saying is, without due process, how do you know whether the foreigner has committed the offensive action at all? Just because someone said so? What if a police officer has it is for someone. Can he just arrest him and never have to go before a court to justify it?

Would you please answer the several questions I have asked you? thank you.

If a police officer sees a foreigner commiting a crime, he has every right to throw that person in jail. And I doubt that a police officer would "have it in" for a foreinger. That is a very rare scenario.

So what does them being a foreigner have to do with anything? They are treated the same as any other citizen.

They shouldn't be.

 

[McBell]

They shouldn't be.

Why not?

 

[Autodidact]

If a police officer sees a foreigner commiting a crime, he has every right to throw that person in jail. And I doubt that a police officer would "have it in" for a foreinger. That is a very rare scenario.

Oh, so only if he actually observes the crime being committed then? btw, does that happen often? Without a trial, how would you know whether the cop had actually witnessed the crime or not? It's not that cops have it in for any group, although there may be some cops who do. It's that they make mistakes. You know, being human and all. I gave you actual examples of foreigners arrested by the government by mistake. They spelled the guy's name wrong, kidnapped him and sent him to Jordan to be tortured. Then they realized they had the wrong guy and dropped off at the side of the road. True story. Should that be legal, in your book?

They shouldn't be.

Please answer the questions I have asked you. Do you need me to repeat them?

Say a foreign student here on a visa is accidentally mistaken for a different person, and accused of a crime due to mistaken identity. Should he be entitled to any due process at all? Should he get a trial? Or should the government be able to lock him up forever without ever producing any evidence?