Is Bin Laden Now Innocent Until Proven Guilty?

[MM218]

FIrst off, I apologize for the duplicate/repeating posts. My computer said that they weren't being posted, so I kept retyping and reposting.

"So what makes US citizens worthy of rights the rest of the human race doesn't deserve?"
Because the rest of the human race doesn't live in the US. The same rule should be in effect for all countries. A US citizen that's in a foreign country shouldn't have a fair trial in that country either, because they are not a citizen.

 

[Storm]

Why?!

 

[Autodidact]

Only US citizens should have the right to a fair trial.

So let me clarify your position. If your Canadian cousin comes to visit you one summer, and in a case of mistaken identity, is arrested for armed robbery when he actually had an iron-clad alibi, he should not have a right to a trial, but the U.S. government should be able to lock him up for the rest of his life without ever even telling him what the charges against him are? Is that your position?

Any idea why the Supreme Court has always seen this so differently?

 

[Autodidact]

We can't constantly bend over backwards for the rights of criminals.

What if you're not a criminal, but an innocent person accused of a crime--then should you have rights?

If you're not a US citizen and you commit a crime, no fair trial. If you don't want to be thrown in jail, don't commit crimes.

What if you're falsely accused of a crime? What if you're kidnapped by the U.S. government because they accidentally spelled your name wrong, like Khalid al-Masri? What if they arrest you because of incorrect information mistakenly supplied by the RCMP, and you're no more a terrorist than MM218, like Maher Arar, then should you get a chance to say so? Or too bad for you, you're not American so we can lock you up as long as we want with no trial, no charges, no lawyer, and no chance to show that you're not in fact a criminal?

o what if Bin Laden is a human being? Some humans are scum and deserve death. Bin Laden incriminated himself by claiming he caused 9/11. If that isn't enough proof, then perhaps you could give an example on what would be sufficient proof.

Has anyone here suggested there is insufficient proof? On the contrary, it is precisely because there is plenty of proof that he would be convicted, if charged.

 

[Autodidact]

FIrst off, I apologize for the duplicate/repeating posts. My computer said that they weren't being posted, so I kept retyping and reposting.

"So what makes US citizens worthy of rights the rest of the human race doesn't deserve?"
Because the rest of the human race doesn't live in the US. The same rule should be in effect for all countries. A US citizen that's in a foreign country shouldn't have a fair trial in that country either, because they are not a citizen.

Again, to clarify. You go on vacation to Mexico. The Mexican police mistakenly believe you were smuggling drugs. They should be able to arrest you and lock you up with no trial, no contact with your embassy, no lawyer, and no charges? That's what you're advocating?

 

[Autodidact]

MM: What if they arrest you and charge you with being Osama Bin Laden. Absurd, you say, you're not him. Should you get a trial to show that? What if they arrest some poor schmuck with the misfortune to be in Afghanistan, and mistakenly think he's Osama Bin Laden because he's tall and has a beard? Should he get a chance to show that in fact he's devoted his life to fighting against the Taliban and Al Qaeda? Or should the U.S. gov't get to lock him up forever with no rights whatsoever?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

MM: What if they arrest you and charge you with being Osama Bin Laden. Absurd, you say, you're not him. Should you get a trial to show that? What if they arrest some poor schmuck with the misfortune to be in Afghanistan, and mistakenly think he's Osama Bin Laden because he's tall and has a beard? Should he get a chance to show that in fact he's devoted his life to fighting against the Taliban and Al Qaeda? Or should the U.S. gov't get to lock him up forever with no rights whatsoever?

And what if they arrest some poor schmuck in downtown New York, decide he's Osama bin Laden (and therefore not a citizen)? Should he get no rights at all, or should he get the chance to prove that he's actually Steve bin Laden, American citizen, born and raised in Hoboken, NJ?

 

[LittlePinky82]

MM: What if they arrest you and charge you with being Osama Bin Laden. Absurd, you say, you're not him. Should you get a trial to show that? What if they arrest some poor schmuck with the misfortune to be in Afghanistan, and mistakenly think he's Osama Bin Laden because he's tall and has a beard? Should he get a chance to show that in fact he's devoted his life to fighting against the Taliban and Al Qaeda? Or should the U.S. gov't get to lock him up forever with no rights whatsoever?

I thought you've been advocating to kill BinLadin? So now you want him to have his day in court? And what if you kill BinLadin but find out later you killed a look-a-like? Or someone "accidentally" gave you wrong information?

 

[Autodidact]

I thought you've been advocating to kill BinLadin? So now you want him to have his day in court? And what if you kill BinLadin but find out later you killed a look-a-like? Or someone "accidentally" gave you wrong information?

I'm explaining how the constitution works. If anyone is apprehended by u.s. law enforcement, they are entitled to certain rights under the Constitution. If, on the other hand, we had declared war on Al Qaeda, which we haven't, then U.S. armed forces could attack him, if he did not surrender first. If he did surrender, he could be subject to prosecution, under U.S. or International Law. He would also be protected by the Geneva convention, which the Bush administration argues do not apply to GITMO detainees.

 

[McBell]

If anyone is apprehended by u.s. law enforcement, they are entitled to certain rights under the Constitution.

UNLESS they are being accused of terrorism.
Or the Government just refuses to say why they are being apprehended.

[sarcasm]
Thank you Patriot Act!!
[/sarcasm]

 

[kai]

Okay and the point?

This goes a long with five and six. Use stigma to fight them. It has worked in the past. Stigma is putting a negative label on an ideal or an action. Look at OJ Simpson.


some countries hold Alqueda in high esteem , some countries have never heard of OJ Simpson

 

[kai]

Only a complete lack of reason combined with a complete lack of ethics could produce such an idea.

indeed

 

[kai]

But they are only 5% there so how could that have any type of influence?

are you joking? or do you know nothing of what goes on in Iraq?

there is a particularly nasty group of individuals that operate in Iraq called Tanzim Qaidat al-Jihad fi Bilad al-Rafidayn

this group is very small way less Than 5% of the population but its two favorite methods of promoting its ideological goals are to suicide bomb crowded areas and behead people, this makes them probably one of the most feared groups in Iraq.


you would be amazed how much the beheading of your village elder would influence a whole village. or the effect blowing up a Shia Mosque would have on the whole of southern Iraq.

 

[LittlePinky82]

This goes a long with five and six. Use stigma to fight them. It has worked in the past. Stigma is putting a negative label on an ideal or an action. Look at OJ Simpson.


some countries hold Alqueda in high esteem , some countries have never heard of OJ Simpson

I know but I was using OJ Simpson as an example of stigma working since I assumed you knew who he was and apparently you do. I wasn't talking to country's who have never heard of OJ Simpson. And those country's where AlQida is held in high esteem that is a battle between Muslim's. What someone in the west says (especially the United States) probably won't mean much anyways unless they are proven to be a true friend to Islam and understanding of their plight etc.

 

[kai]

I know but I was using OJ Simpson as an example of stigma working since I assumed you knew who he was and apparently you do. I wasn't talking to country's who have never heard of OJ Simpson. And those country's where AlQida is held in high esteem that is a battle between Muslim's. What someone in the west says (especially the United States) probably won't mean much anyways unless they are proven to be a true friend to Islam and understanding of their plight etc.

which is?

 

[LittlePinky82]

are you joking? or do you know nothing of what goes on in Iraq?

there is a particularly nasty group of individuals that operate in Iraq called Tanzim Qaidat al-Jihad fi Bilad al-Rafidayn

this group is very small way less Than 5% of the population but its two favorite methods of promoting its ideological goals are to suicide bomb crowded areas and behead people, this makes them probably one of the most feared groups in Iraq.


you would be amazed how much the beheading of your village elder would influence a whole village. or the effect blowing up a Shia Mosque would have on the whole of southern Iraq.

Yes I do know what goes on in Iraq. And don't tell me that. Tell the Pentagon. That 5% is their number. And what makes you think Iraqi's want those people to stay in their country in the first place? Once we leave I am pretty confident the Iraqi people will take care of that. They have been doing that all a long.

 

[LittlePinky82]

which is?

What does that mean? You didn't provide anything to that.

 

[kai]

I know but I was using OJ Simpson as an example of stigma working since I assumed you knew who he was and apparently you do. I wasn't talking to country's who have never heard of OJ Simpson. And those country's where AlQida is held in high esteem that is a battle between Muslim's. What someone in the west says (especially the United States) probably won't mean much anyways unless they are proven to be a true friend to Islam and understanding of their plight etc.[/quote]


which is? i thought you had an idea what true Islam was and they had some kind of plight?

never mind if i missunderstood

 

[kai]

Yes I do know what goes on in Iraq. And don't tell me that. Tell the Pentagon. That 5% is their number. And what makes you think Iraqi's want those people to stay in their country in the first place? Once we leave I am pretty confident the Iraqi people will take care of that. They have been doing that all a long.

these are murdering scum , terryifying religious maniacs , once the Iraqi security forces can take them out i am sure they will ,right now they cant.

 

[LittlePinky82]

I know but I was using OJ Simpson as an example of stigma working since I assumed you knew who he was and apparently you do. I wasn't talking to country's who have never heard of OJ Simpson. And those country's where AlQida is held in high esteem that is a battle between Muslim's. What someone in the west says (especially the United States) probably won't mean much anyways unless they are proven to be a true friend to Islam and understanding of their plight etc.[/quote]


which is? i thought you had an idea what true Islam was and they had some kind of plight?

never mind if i missunderstood

I'm talking about if you are shown to be a friend to their religious beliefs and sympathetic and understanding. If you're biased, hateful etc. I'm sure they're not going to care what you think like with any religion. It helps to be understanding even if you don't agree with something. And their plight with taking back their country or having some sort of justice such as with Palestine and Israel etc. Sorry if I was confusing.