Is Bin Laden Now Innocent Until Proven Guilty?

[LittlePinky82]

OK but they have Kudos in Waziristan and stigma in the UK

Okay and the point?

 

[LittlePinky82]

there are several reasons and several kinds of insurgents in Iraq. taking Al Quedas role is merely to promote their ideological goals . one of which is to kill Shia who they consider apostates, and to prevent them holding power in government.

But they are only 5% there so how could that have any type of influence?

 

[LittlePinky82]

Sadly, I think there is a good chance that the minute we leave total civil war will break out until one group has established a firm hold on the power structure. OTOH, our staying there aggravates the hostilities tremendously, so Bush the idiot has created an untenable position for us. On the balance, I think the best we can make out of a bad job is to leave, but I don't think we should fool ourselves that life for the average Iraqi will be peace and roses. The best choice would have been not to invade in the first place, but that choice is gone forever.

The civil war has been going on for a while now. So the point? Who said life for them will be peaches and roses? It's not for them now either. We're only making it worse.

 

[Magic Man]

Why is this still going on? He is innocent until proven guilty. If, in the process of trying to capture him, he is killed somehow, then so be it. That can't be helped. It's the same with trying to capture any possible criminal. If the police go to his house to try to arrest him, and he resists and is killed as a necessity, then oh well. If, however, any suspected criminal is caught and arrested, then they should stand trial. If they are convicted, then punish them accordingly.

I don't see what the big deal is. I can't really see Bin Laden not being proved guilty. You can't just say "Well, look at the horrible things he did, though, he should just be killed", because what makes this case any different than any other? There are always people who think "What a horrible person he/she is, just dispense with the trial and fry them". That's not the way our system works, though, even in a case of terrorist like Bin Laden, and for good reason.

 

[MM218]

Bin Laden isn't a US citizen. Therefore, our system should not apply to him. He has already been proven guilty. We shouldn't waste our time and money on giving him a fair trial.

 

[Magic Man]

Bin Laden isn't a US citizen. Therefore, our system should not apply to him. He has already been proven guilty. We shouldn't waste our time and money on giving him a fair trial.

Ah, I see. So, only Americans are worthy of such things. Those darn foreigners don't deserve such things.

He is a human being. That's why he deserves a fair trial. How has he been proven guilty? I must have missed that part. So,t he next time a French guy is accused of raping some American woman, he should just be thrown in jail, or executed because there is some evidence against him, and he's not American, so we should forego the fair trial? I wouldn't travel to any foreign counries, if I were you then.

 

[Autodidact]

The civil war has been going on for a while now. So the point? Who said life for them will be peaches and roses? It's not for them now either. We're only making it worse.

If we stay, we aggravate the situation. If we leave, it will probably escalate. Asterisk Bush.

 

[Autodidact]

Bin Laden isn't a US citizen. Therefore, our system should not apply to him. He has already been proven guilty. We shouldn't waste our time and money on giving him a fair trial.

The Supreme Court sees it differently. Is it your position that only U.S. citizens are guaranteed rights under the Constitution? Did you know that is not, and has never been, the law of the U.S.?

 

[MM218]

Ah, I see. So, only Americans are worthy of such things. Those darn foreigners don't deserve such things.

He is a human being. That's why he deserves a fair trial. How has he been proven guilty? I must have missed that part.

Only US citizens should have the right to a fair trial.

Just because he's a human doesn't mean he deserves a fair trial. He is a proven terrorist. We should shoot him on site. He proved himself guilty by claiming he was behind 9/11. That's all the proof we need.

 

[Magic Man]

Only US citizens should have the right to a fair trial.

Just because he's a human doesn't mean he deserves a fair trial. He is a proven terrorist. We should shoot him on site. He proved himself guilty by claiming he was behind 9/11. That's all the proof we need.

Again, so any foreigner who is accused of a crime here should just be thrown in jail without fair trial? If that's the case, then, as I said before, I wouldn't suggest travelling abroad at all. You could end up the same way for no reason.

As to the bold part: Yes, it does. That's exactly what it means, and that's exactly what our law says, as pointed out by Autodidact. His being a human means he has the same inalienable human rights as any other human.

I'm just glad you don't run our legal system. I'd be very afraid.

 

[Smoke]

Bin Laden isn't a US citizen. Therefore, our system should not apply to him. He has already been proven guilty. We shouldn't waste our time and money on giving him a fair trial.

Whether our system applies to bin Laden is beside the point. Our system applies to us. Suggesting that we should throw it out the window to gratify a childish desire to lash out is inexcusable.

 

[MM218]

Ah, I see. So, only Americans are worthy of such things. Those darn foreigners don't deserve such things.

He is a human being. That's why he deserves a fair trial. How has he been proven guilty? I must have missed that part. So,t he next time a French guy is accused of raping some American woman, he should just be thrown in jail, or executed because there is some evidence against him, and he's not American, so we should forego the fair trial? I wouldn't travel to any foreign counries, if I were you then.

We can't constantly bend over backwards for the rights of criminals. If you're not a US citizen and you commit a crime, no fair trial. If you don't want to be thrown in jail, don't commit crimes.

So what if Bin Laden is a human being? Some humans are scum and deserve death. Bin Laden incriminated himself by claiming he caused 9/11. If that isn't enough proof, then perhaps you could give an example on what would be sufficient proof.

 

[Magic Man]

We can't constantly bend over backwards for the rights of criminals. If you're not a US citizen and you commit a crime, no fair trial. If you don't want to be thrown in jail, don't commit crimes.

So what if Bin Laden is a human being? Some humans are scum and deserve death. Bin Laden incriminated himself by claiming he caused 9/11. If that isn't enough proof, then perhaps you could give an example on what would be sufficient proof.

I think you're missing the point. We don't know whether he did these thigns yet. We don't know whether he's scum. The fact that he's a human being means that he has a right to have both sides of the argument presented fairly, and have an impartial judge decide whether or not he's guilty.

No one is saying he shouldn't be punished, if he's found guilty. We all want to see him pay for his crimes. The problem is that we want to show that he is guilty of those crimes first, and then proceed to the punishment.

I'm sure you want a fair trial if you're ever accused of anything, right? What if tomorrow, the cops arrested you with some evidence that you had shot several people. They decided without a trial that their evidence was enough to convict you and threw you in prison for the rest of your life, or killed you, without a trial. Would you like that? If not, why would you want anything different for any other human, even if you have a preconcieied notion that they are scum?

EDIT: I agree that we shouldn't bend over backwards for criminals. We just have to prove that they are criminals first.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Bin Laden isn't a US citizen. Therefore, our system should not apply to him. He has already been proven guilty. We shouldn't waste our time and money on giving him a fair trial.

Since you claim that the US system should not apply to bin Laden, you also believe that the US has no right to mete out justice on him, correct?

 

[Smoke]

Only US citizens should have the right to a fair trial.

Only a complete lack of reason combined with a complete lack of ethics could produce such an idea.

 

[LittlePinky82]

Why is this still going on? He is innocent until proven guilty. If, in the process of trying to capture him, he is killed somehow, then so be it. That can't be helped. It's the same with trying to capture any possible criminal. If the police go to his house to try to arrest him, and he resists and is killed as a necessity, then oh well. If, however, any suspected criminal is caught and arrested, then they should stand trial. If they are convicted, then punish them accordingly.

I don't see what the big deal is. I can't really see Bin Laden not being proved guilty. You can't just say "Well, look at the horrible things he did, though, he should just be killed", because what makes this case any different than any other? There are always people who think "What a horrible person he/she is, just dispense with the trial and fry them". That's not the way our system works, though, even in a case of terrorist like Bin Laden, and for good reason.

Exactly. Our system has gone through worse criminals before. Even the people who did the previous WTC attack are now serving life sentences without parole. I would love to see BinLadin do that quite honestly. Even if there is reasonable doubt about him and 9/11 he could still get in trouble with bombing the Cole and the Embassy's and those are federal attacks too. Razan Aslan made the point that BinLadin's image in the radical Muslim world is already established so either way he'd be a martyr so why not just take him through our system?

 

[Magic Man]

mball- Yes, only Americans are worthy of rights in the US. We can't constantly be bending over backwards just to be "fair".

As for Bin Laden, so what if he is a human being? There are many human beings that are complete scum and are deserving of death. He incriminated himself by claiming to be responsible for 9/11. What more proof do we need? We should kill him on site.

Autodidact- Yes, my position is that only US citizens should have rights.

Most of this is responded to in my last post.

So, Africans, Europeans, Asians, none of them should have rights? I think they'd beg to differ.

 

[Storm]

MM218,

So what makes US citizens worthy of rights the rest of the human race doesn't deserve?

 

[LittlePinky82]

MM218,

So what makes US citizens worthy of rights the rest of the human race doesn't deserve?

There's a little thing called international law everyone has to apply by. I know I'm not MM218 but I wanted to bring that point up. The U.S. has fought hard and bled blood to get to this point. Other country's have to figure out what works for them as well. They can't be forced into it.

 

[Storm]

Oh, I don't agree with him.