Is Calling Muhammad a Pedophile Islamophobic?

[outhouse]

"...characterized as a primary or exclusive sexual interest in prepubescent children.."

If you make a 6-9 year old your wife, is she now not your primary sexual interest?

 

[YmirGF]

If you make a 6-9 year old your wife, is she now not your primary sexual interest?

But the child bride was not his only wife. His first wife, who was a part of that polygamous marriage, was several years older than Muhammad.

 

[Cephus]

Careful, now. Or else you're going to be apologizing for suicide bombings and mass executions.

I'm not the one doing them, I have nothing to apologize for.

 

[outhouse]

I have not seen any definition of pedophilia that states "only by children" in any form.

Depends on how we define the word.

Clinical mental illness as a psychiatric disorder

Or normal usage.


wiki

In popular usage, the word pedophilia is often applied to any sexual interest in children or the act of child sexual abuse

Austrian neurologist Sigmund Freud briefly wrote about the topic in his 1905 book Three Essays on the Theory of Sexuality in a section titled The Sexually immature and Animals as Sexual objects. He wrote that exclusive pedophilia was rare and only occasionally were prepubescent children exclusive objects. He wrote that they usually were the subject of desire when a weak person "makes use of such substitutes" or when an uncontrollable instinct which will not allow delay seeks immediate gratification and cannot find a more appropriate object.

 

[outhouse]

But the child bride was not his only wife. His first wife, who was a part of that polygamous marriage, was several years older than Muhammad.

Understood. I knew he had other wives.

It is sort of like henotheism and polytheism, for which we don't have enough evidence to determine any difference what so ever.


I think as a psychiatric disorder, the evidence is not thin, and it is not absent either.


The fact he took a 6 years old as a wife speaks volumes about his character and desires.

 

[YmirGF]

The fact he took a 6 years old as a wife speaks volumes about his character and desires.

This, I am willing to agree with. It tells us quite a lot, actually. Likewise, that Muslim chroniclers chose to tell us all about it shows that they didn't see anything wrong in their Prophet behaving in this way. He is, after all, the "perfect" example to follow.

 

[Nietzsche]

If you make a 6-9 year old your wife, is she now not your primary sexual interest?

But the child bride was not his only wife. His first wife, who was a part of that polygamous marriage, was several years older than Muhammad.

Understood. I knew he had other wives.

It is sort of like henotheism and polytheism, for which we don't have enough evidence to determine any difference what so ever.


I think as a psychiatric disorder, the evidence is not thin, and it is not absent either.


The fact he took a 6 years old as a wife speaks volumes about his character and desires.

This, I am willing to agree with. It tells us quite a lot, actually. Likewise, that Muslim chroniclers chose to tell us all about it shows that they didn't see anything wrong in their Prophet behaving in this way. He is, after all, the "perfect" example to follow.

Again, if we're going to use this kind of metric, we're going to have to apply it to just about every figure in Christian, Judaic, Muslim and other such history. I mean, I've got no problem with that at all, I don't really like any of them, but I do care about laying blame equally amongst equal crimes.

 

[Moishe3rd]

Morality has 100% for sure improved over time. Obviously, there will always be exceptions, but morality must be looked at in general.

1. Amount of slavery has decreased over time
2. Treatment of women has improved over time
3. Adherance to religious dogma (in most of the world) has decreased over time
4. No more kings (again, in most of the world)
5. Interracial/intermarriage more acceptable
6. Female reproduction rights improved upon
7. I could go on and on

So many things have improved (in general) regarding morality.

What is an example of something that has gotten worse in our structure of morality over time in general (by "in general" I mean that, of course, anyone can pick out exceptions, but we are discussing civilized society).

Cute!
This map shows where the world’s 30 million slaves live. There are 60,000 in the U.S.
Women? Great. It is good you live in a place where you treat women well. I would humbly suggest you stay out of parts of Asia; the Middle East; Africa; and South and Latin America.
Oy...
I'm sorry, I can't continue....
It has been my policy since a teenager not to try and totally decimate one's personal view of religion when it is useful to the individual.
Your belief both that "Adherence to religious dogma (in most of the world) has decreased over time" is true and is "moral," is too much.
Gezunt heit. You should live and be well.

 

[leibowde84]

Cute!
This map shows where the world’s 30 million slaves live. There are 60,000 in the U.S.
Women? Great. It is good you live in a place where you treat women well. I would humbly suggest you stay out of parts of Asia; the Middle East; Africa; and South and Latin America.
Oy...
I'm sorry, I can't continue....
It has been my policy since a teenager not to try and totally decimate one's personal view of religion when it is useful to the individual.
Your belief both that "Adherence to religious dogma (in most of the world) has decreased over time" is true and is "moral," is too much.
Gezunt heit. You should live and be well.

You are welcome to your opinion, but I stated that morality IN GENERAL has improved quite a bit. There are, of course, examples of places in the world where it has not improved as much. But, just to refute the points you offered, if you ask anyone in South America, "have the rights of women improved at all over the past 500 years" they would say yes. That would be the case even in Afghanistan.

 

[gsa]

Again, if we're going to use this kind of metric, we're going to have to apply it to just about every figure in Christian, Judaic, Muslim and other such history. I mean, I've got no problem with that at all, I don't really like any of them, but I do care about laying blame equally amongst equal crimes.

But they don't have equal stature within the religion, do they? Muhammad is, after all, unique in his role as the final prophet in Islam. Who else had child brides in Jewish and Christian history with an equivalent status? Joseph, I suppose, and who else?

 

[leibowde84]

Cute!
This map shows where the world’s 30 million slaves live. There are 60,000 in the U.S.
Women? Great. It is good you live in a place where you treat women well. I would humbly suggest you stay out of parts of Asia; the Middle East; Africa; and South and Latin America.
Oy...
I'm sorry, I can't continue....
It has been my policy since a teenager not to try and totally decimate one's personal view of religion when it is useful to the individual.
Your belief both that "Adherence to religious dogma (in most of the world) has decreased over time" is true and is "moral," is too much.
Gezunt heit. You should live and be well.

So, by your comment, you disagree with my point. My point was simply that the prevalence of slavery throughout the world (as a whole taking into account changes in population) has decreased. This is a sign of an improvement in global morality, imho. What part of this do you disagree with specifically, as your map did not refute my point at all.

 

[Nietzsche]

But they don't have equal stature within the religion, do they? Muhammad is, after all, unique in his role as the final prophet in Islam. Who else had child brides in Jewish and Christian history with an equivalent status? Joseph, I suppose, and who else?

Well there's;

Isaac & Rebeca(she was three)
Moses too, (Numbers 31) 18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
Then there are the concubines of King Solomon & King David.
And as you listed, Joseph & Mary.

 

[outhouse]

Again, if we're going to use this kind of metric, we're going to have to apply it to just about every figure in Christian, Judaic, Muslim and other such history

But we don't have accounts of Noah, Moses, Jesus, or Abraham taking on a 6 year old wife.

So our methodology actually defines the man as a pedophile, and if you would like to discuss how much or how deep his possible psychiatric disorder was, well that is another story altogether we could not diagnose accurately based of lack of credible evidence.

But, can you point out a error placing him in the normal usage and definition of word?

 

[outhouse]

Isaac & Rebeca(she was three)

A literary creation and a real event are 4 different things here.

This number 3 is also based on faulty dates given in the accounts. You know certain men lived until 600 years old ect ect

It is also not as confirmed or accepted as muhammads wife and other dates as 14 are also considered credible.

It is also stated 20 years had gone by before they tried to have children.

Moses too, (Numbers 31

Another literary creation.

Then there are the concubines of King Solomon & King David.

Another literary creation.

And as you listed, Joseph & Mary.

Ages not known.


Now if you wanted something credible, you could point out the OT verses that point to the teachings that is OK for children captured in war, or selling your daughter as a sex slave.

But again, this is a thousand to fifteen hundred years before, and most are literary created legends. Not real events by the most influential character of a whole religion. That is where the real damage is done.

 

[Nietzsche]

But again, this is a thousand to fifteen hundred years before, and most are literary created legends. Not real events by the most influential character of a whole religion. That is where the real damage is done.

And? Whether they existed or not isn't that important here. The texts still have these examples, real or otherwise. The Torah & the Bible posit themselves as factual events(and plenty, plenty people take the books at their word). They are held in equally high regard by their respective adherents as the Quran is by Muslims. This makes the examples perfectly legitimate.

 

[outhouse]

Whether they existed or not isn't that important here.

I don't see how comparing mythology to reality is relevant.

Not only that, none of the mythology is similar.

I agree people use the term pedophile in a negative and insulting way. I honestly think this is a case of the truth hurting, and truth used to hurt. I can admit I have done it in a negative manner myself.

But it does not mean because there are a few sentences of text in millions of words, in other religions, out of context here, that a marriage to a 6 year old was morally acceptable even in this time.

 

[gsa]

Well there's;

Isaac & Rebeca(she was three)
Moses too, (Numbers 31) 18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
Then there are the concubines of King Solomon & King David.
And as you listed, Joseph & Mary.

Yes, I agree those examples are horrible. Even though, as you note, Moses, Isaac, etc are mythological.

Of course, I have no problem with a generalized criticism of the Abrahamic religions on sexuality. To the extent that Moses is a role model that inspires similarly aberrant behavior, it shouldn't be overlooked.

 

[Nietzsche]

Of course, I have no problem with a generalized criticism of the Abrahamic religions on sexuality. To the extent that Moses is a role model that inspires similarly aberrant behavior, it shouldn't be overlooked.

I think most believers have problems with how their texts tend to treat sexuality. Or at least, those believers who aren't as terrible as some of the figures in said texts.

I don't see how comparing mythology to reality is relevant.

Not only that, none of the mythology is similar.

I agree people use the term pedophile in a negative and insulting way. I honestly think this is a case of the truth hurting, and truth used to hurt. I can admit I have done it in a negative manner myself.

But it does not mean because there are a few sentences of text in millions of words, in other religions, out of context here, that a marriage to a 6 year old was morally acceptable even in this time.

Perhaps I'm missing something, but why does their status as mythology matter in this regard? There are many parts of Mohammad's life that we aren't sure of, and obviously quite a bit that's firmly & rightly seen as flat-out myth & legend. How does that change that the texts all of these individuals(real or imagined) come from regard their actions as good, just, and in some cases flat-out endorsed or demanded by God?

 

[McBell]

The fact he took a 6 years old as a wife speaks volumes about his character and desires.

This, I am willing to agree with. It tells us quite a lot, actually. .

Really?
What does it tell us, exactly?

 

[Politesse]

I don't think pedophile is a category that makes sense in a context where that behavior is normalized and expected. I don't think we should hold up anyone as an exemplar of moral behavior forever and ever, but the solution is to stop doing that, not to apply modern labels to the past as though they meant something. As a pacifist I would love a future world in which all wars were made illegal, but I think it would be wrong to retroactively label every soldier a murderer, when they were raised from birth to conduct themselves by the sword. I'd like to see for-profit insurance declared a fraudulent and illegal industry, but it wouldn't be fair to then accuse every Blue Cross employee of theft.