Is Calling Muhammad a Pedophile Islamophobic?

[Ingledsva]

I chose NO, - it is not acceptable.

However, ALL of the religions of Abraham had marriage of young girls.

It seems to be a part of patriarchy to own girls as young as possible, - before they can form an opinion, and protest. Then put laws into practice which make stepping outside your marriage - when you grow up, - a death penalty.

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[Faybull]

I'd be more concerned about the effluence of adultery, instead of pondering what to do with the dressing of the wound.

What does it mention of Aisha in the Quran?
I am unfamiliar with the calculation of her age?

 

[Ingledsva]

During his time and the location? Yes. Young girls were routinely married off or betrothed to older men.

They still are in many places. National Geographic had a spread on this subject. They showed ten year old girls with their almost thirty year old husbands. The showed twelve year olds with their babies on their hips, and little girls dying from hemorrhaging because they were too small at birth.

It is truly awful.

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[YmirGF]

Really?
What does it tell us, exactly?

I'd rather not say, Mes. We would soon get into hot water that would make the Mod Squad nervous. It's not nice to upset them unnecessarily.

 

[Ingledsva]

That is precisely my point. This is child-marriage, not pedophilia. Two bad things, but two very different bad things.

It is wrong to single out a particular man as a pedophile, to jab the religion.

However, no matter the era, grown men wanting to SC**W little girls, as young as possible, is still pedophilia.

Some of the Hebrew writings say you can take in marriage - by intercourse - a girl three years and one day old!

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[Moishe3rd]

Morality has 100% for sure improved over time. Obviously, there will always be exceptions, but morality must be looked at in general.

1. Amount of slavery has decreased over time
2. Treatment of women has improved over time
3. Adherance to religious dogma (in most of the world) has decreased over time
4. No more kings (again, in most of the world)
5. Interracial/intermarriage more acceptable
6. Female reproduction rights improved upon
7. I could go on and on

So many things have improved (in general) regarding morality.

What is an example of something that has gotten worse in our structure of morality over time in general (by "in general" I mean that, of course, anyone can pick out exceptions, but we are discussing civilized society).

As noted, I disagree with your first two points. I think you have a very "Western" centric view of planet Earth.
Your third point is debatable. There is a very large group of Muslims who believe that their religious dogma requires them to murder people.

Then again, the reasons that I cannot debate your points is that I consider your premises faulty.
You consider that "Adherance to religious dogma (in most of the world) has decreased over time" to be a moral good. I do not.
You consider the rest of your points to be a moral good. I do not.
As noted previously, you believe that morals are whatever you believe are a good thing. I do not.

 

[Baladas]

While it may have been considered morally acceptable at one time, I consider it unacceptable.
The girl would likely still be prepubescent, and was most likely far from ready for the physical and psychological demands of married life.

No matter the era, it is a despicable practice that disregards the welfare of young girls.

 

[Aupmanyav]

How to ensure that virgin status?

There is no problem in Islam about virginity. That is a Christian problem. Khadija bint Khuwaylid, Sawda bint Zamʿa, Hafsa bint Umar, Zaynab bint Khuzayma, Hind bint Abi Umayya, Zaynab bint Jahsh, Juwayriyya bint al-Harith, Safiyya bint Huyeiy, Ramla bint Abi Sufyan, all had married earlier. Many of them were 'ghanima', spoils of war bestowed by Allah. Mohammad did not wait for the period of Iddah (four months and ten days) to end before he consumated his marriage with Safiyya bint Huyeiy whose father and husband were killed in battle just three days before. Perhaps Aisha bint Abu Bakr and Maymuna bint al-Harith were the only virgins that Mohammad married. And Aisha was his youngest wife.

 

[Kirran]

Aisha did have a very special status though.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

Hypocrisy?

One wonders how many threads there are on all those other alleged pedophiles...?

Well it is hypocritical to condemn a book due to messed up stuff when your own holy book has messed up stuff, too.

 

[McBell]

I'd rather not say, Mes. We would soon get into hot water that would make the Mod Squad nervous. It's not nice to upset them unnecessarily.

Interesting.

I am most curious.
Especially given that back then the vast majority of marriages were for convenience, politic positioning, social standing, alliances, etc.

One wonders why you would even mention it if you have intentions of expounding...

 

[McBell]

Well it is hypocritical to condemn a book due to messed up stuff when your own holy book has messed up stuff, too.

Why the blatant diversion tactic?
The thread is about Mohammed and Aisha, not the Koran, not the other alleged pedophiles...

 

[McBell]

However, no matter the era, grown men wanting to SC**W little girls, as young as possible, is still pedophilia.

Now all you need to do is show that Mohammed wanted to screw little girls.

Since we both know that cannot be done...

 

[YmirGF]

Interesting.

I am most curious.
Especially given that back then the vast majority of marriages were for convenience, politic positioning, social standing, alliances, etc.

One wonders why you would even mention it if you have intentions of expounding...

I'd love to give you my impressions, Mes, but by doing so, I would likely break a few RF rules.
Maybe sometime in the future I could regale you with my viewpoint over a couple of cold beers by a warming campfire... but no, it is not possible to give my unvarnished opinions here on RF. I can almost feel the Mods breaking into a sweat simply writing this, LOL.

 

[outhouse]

can almost feel the Mods breaking into a sweat simply writing this, LOL.

Rule #1 about the fight club. Don't talk about the fight club lol

 

[Deadtroopers]

I am scratching my head that 3/4s here can answer other than yes. We have a confirmed datum. See Black Swan.
The thing seems to hedged with caveats, however, and a specific dispensation, like so many others, to Mo.
Arguing from the particular to the general would seem problematic. Against that; childhood is supposedly a Victorian conception; as teenagers are of the 1950s. Paedophilia is a recent obsession of society. I can certainly remember a period when some parts of Europe, including the UK, were moving in the other direction. The kerfuffle created in 1958 when Jerry Lee Lewis toured the UK and it came out he had a thirteen year old wife, also his cousin, is an example of the elasticity of moraility in this area in a recent period of US history. As with all moral questions, one should think it through and come to a rational; evidence based conclusion. 'Because I am outraged.' is no more a proper answer than 'Because God said so'.

 

[gsa]

I am scratching my head that 3/4s here can answer other than yes. We have a confirmed datum. See Black Swan.
The thing seems to hedged with caveats, however, and a specific dispensation, like so many others, to Mo.
Arguing from the particular to the general would seem problematic. Against that; childhood is supposedly a Victorian conception; as teenagers are of the 1950s. Paedophilia is a recent obsession of society. I can certainly remember a period when some parts of Europe, including the UK, were moving in the other direction. The kerfuffle created in 1958 when Jerry Lee Lewis toured the UK and it came out he had a thirteen year old wife, also his cousin, is an example of the elasticity of moraility in this area in a recent period of US history. As with all moral questions, one should think it through and come to a rational; evidence based conclusion. 'Because I am outraged.' is no more a proper answer than 'Because God said so'.

There are perfectly reasonable arguments to be made that the low age of consent was immoral at the time, even when it was pervasive. But the age of consent was setting a minimum, it doesn't speak to how pervasive marriage at the particular age was at any point in space and time.

 

[Ingledsva]

I am scratching my head that 3/4s here can answer other than yes. We have a confirmed datum. See Black Swan.
The thing seems to hedged with caveats, however, and a specific dispensation, like so many others, to Mo.
Arguing from the particular to the general would seem problematic. Against that; childhood is supposedly a Victorian conception; as teenagers are of the 1950s. Paedophilia is a recent obsession of society. I can certainly remember a period when some parts of Europe, including the UK, were moving in the other direction. The kerfuffle created in 1958 when Jerry Lee Lewis toured the UK and it came out he had a thirteen year old wife, also his cousin, is an example of the elasticity of moraility in this area in a recent period of US history. As with all moral questions, one should think it through and come to a rational; evidence based conclusion. 'Because I am outraged.' is no more a proper answer than 'Because God said so'.

It has nothing to do with "I'm outraged." That is beside the facts.

It has everything to do with little girls hemorrhaging from being torn by sex with full grown men, and hemorrhaging and dying from trying to birth babies from their little bodies.

National Geographic had an article on this very subject (last year, or the year before, I think,) showing the exact same things, abuse, hemorrhaging, and death, happening to little girls in some of these countries today.

No wonder we had so much death at childbirth, including the babies, in the past .

There is no excuse for screwing little girls, - no matter the era.

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[Aupmanyav]

Now all you need to do is show that Mohammed wanted to screw little girls. Since we both know that cannot be done...

Well, Mohammad did ask Jabir bin 'Abdullah why did he not marry a young girl. The first two wives of Mohammad were old (Khadija and Sawda).

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah (Sahih Bukhari)
"Why have you not married a virgin to fondle with each other?"
"Why didn't you marry a young girl so that you may play with her and she with you?"
"Why, don't you have a liking for the virgins and for fondling them?" Jabir also said: Allah's Apostle said, "Why didn't you marry a young girl so that you might play with her and she with you?"
Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Aisha - WikiIslam

 

[Deadtroopers]

Aupmanyav,

There is no way of judging any hadith as genuine. Since even the Muslim scholars rejected 90% of them as having any truth back in the Middle Ages even with their largely useless methodology and nothing survives modern investigation; what you are left with is anecdote and hearsay that can have multiple reasons for it's generation.

The question set is "Was sex between grown men and 9 year old girls morally acceptable at any point in history".
The fact we have this tradition in the record; true or not; establishes that it was. The past is another country; we cannot go there anymore. We cannot influence it; we cannot change it: It is what it is. Get over it.

What is or is not moral today is a whole other kettle of fish. We no longer need gods to give us morality by fiat; we can determine it by logic, reason and science. There are moral facts and science can determine them. We do not need gods to protect us from moral relativism; with effort we can determine that such a thing cannot in fact be so.