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Is Christmas Pagan?

ChieftheCef

Well-Known Member
Most of the traditions of the holiday are Pagan
The big ones all are, and all their saints fictitious. Sanata Claus and Gift Giving coem from Shamanic Siberian traditions. They'd leave psychedelic gifts, amanita muscaria, down holes in their tents that were designed to keep out snow and allow their shaman (santa) to give them gifts of them "down the chimney". Snakes have basically never been in Ireland during the time of Christianity, etc.
 
Your not "pointing it out." You are just saying it.

Let's go through this then.

First of all, there are 3 issues that tend to be conflated:

1. When and why was 25 Dec identified as the (supposed) date for Jesus' birth? (or if you prefer why is it in winter) - My view: Probably 2nd/3rd C. due to a variety of related exegetical traditions from Daniel, Luke, etc and other theological assumptions combined with a desire to calculate calendars of important dates.
2. When and why did this become a liturgical feast day - probably 4th C in Rome - hard to say exactly why, but timing around Nicaea may suggest connection to mono/dyaphysite internal disputes
3. What are the origins of the Christmas rituals, decoration and festivities (trees, presents, etc.) - My view: it's certainly possible there was some cultural continuity, but most of our modern traditions seem to be just that: modern. There is no evidence AFAIK, of any pagan tradition that was also a medieval tradition and is also a modern tradition. There is very little evidence of many of the supposed pagan traditions even being pagan traditions (Saturnalia was not associated with evergreens, etc).

You literally cannot admit that Tacitus described yule in Germania in 98 CE.

You are asserting this, not providing evidence.

AFAIK, Tacitus did not describe Yule. If you have evidence please quote it here.

AFAIK, Tacitus described a generic Germanic festival of some kind. In this case so what?

All relevant societies had festivals in all seasons. This is so obvious it doesn't need to be said.

Other than "post hoc ergo propter hoc", what is the evidence of any causative connection between any generic feast days and Christmas, Easter, etc?

Or that Pope Gregory I advised the Bishop at Mellitus that pagan temples be converted into churches and that pagan festivals, such as Yule-like celebrations, be "baptized" with Christian significance to ease the transition for converts.

People seem to take a grab bag of 3000 years of pagan/Christian history across vast distances of time and geography and then just pick and choose whatever matches their presumptions without any actual attempt to contextualise the information.

7th C Britain (or any part of Northern Europe at any time) has absolutely nothing to do with:

1. When and why was 25 Dec identified as the (supposed) date for Jesus' birth? (or if you prefer why is it in winter)
2. When and why did this become a liturgical feast day

If you think it has something to do with:

3. What are the origins of the Christmas rituals, decoration and festivities (trees, presents, etc.)

Feel free to present some evidence.

If you don't think it has anything to do with any of these, then I'm not sure what your point is, can you please explain what you consider to be the the pertinent point.


Also, the letter doesn't really support your point anyway:

Very often quoted, but rarely in full, is a letter sent by Pope Gregory to Abbot Mellitus, who was about to join Augustine in England, in the year 601... Gregory then turns to festivals:

And because they have been used to slaughter many oxen in the sacrifices to devils, some solemnity must be exchanged for them on this account, as that on the day of the dedication, or the nativities of the holy martyrs whose relics are there deposited, they may build themselves huts of the boughs of trees, about those churches that have been turned to that use from temples, and celebrate the solemnity with religious feasting, and no more offer beasts to the Devil, but kill cattle to the praise of God in their eating, and return thanks to the Giver of all things . . .

To schedule the new feasts to coincide with the anniversary of the church’s dedication, or the feast-day of its patron saint, would almost inevitably break any previous links with the agricultural cycle or seasonal turning-points— the letter does not advise picking saints whose days match pagan festivals.

It is in any case doubtful that the policy outlined in this letter was widely adopted. In the same year, Pope Gregory wrote to King Ethelbert, urging him to ‘abolish the worship of idols and destroy their shrines’ (Bede; book 1, chapter 32). The few other relevant documents include no other reference to any policy of accommodation, but on the contrary mention several temples deliberately destroyed; archaeology has so far found no traces of pagan Saxon shrines under any churches.

Source: Oxford Dictionary of English Folklore


Or that Griped about the persistence of pagan festivals even after Christian appropriation had begun.

Pointing out that Saturnalia and Christmas were celebrated alongside each other in for over a century and that no one noted that they considered it a replacement or an attempted marketing ploy is not a "gripe", it is an evidence based argument against the idea that it was a replacement or marketing ploy.

Did you bother to check on any of that? Or did you just ignore it and continue to say Nuh-uh, no cultural subsumption here?!

Yes. The sources don't say what you claim IMO, and even if they did they still don't really support your vague assertions.

If people just google this topic they will find all kinds of erroneous claims. That is why you need to be specific.

Cultural "borrowing" is certainly possible, but we would need to see evidence of some kind. Something specific, not just post hoc ergo propter hoc or a random 7th C quote that doesn't quite link to anything specific.

Feel free to make an explicit connection based on evidence if you like and we can consider it.

Because I certainly looked into your claims about Sol Invictus.

Excellent. Feel free to offer your thought and discussions on the multiple peer-reviewed scholarly articles and their contents.
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
First of all, there are 3 issues that tend to be conflated:

1. When and why was 25 Dec identified as the (supposed) date for Jesus' birth? (or if you prefer why is it in winter) - My view: Probably 2nd/3rd C. due to a variety of related exegetical traditions from Daniel, Luke, etc and other theological assumptions combined with a desire to calculate calendars of important dates.
2. When and why did this become a liturgical feast day - probably 4th C in Rome - hard to say exactly why, but timing around Nicaea may suggest connection to mono/dyaphysite internal disputes
3. What are the origins of the Christmas rituals, decoration and festivities (trees, presents, etc.) - My view: it's certainly possible there was some cultural continuity, but most of our modern traditions seem to be just that: modern. There is no evidence AFAIK, of any pagan tradition that was also a medieval tradition and is also a modern tradition. There is very little evidence of many of the supposed pagan traditions even being pagan traditions (Saturnalia was not associated with evergreens, etc).
Non of this address my points. The closest that you get is in #3 and that still falls far short of the mark.
You are asserting this, not providing evidence.
First, You did not provide evidence for the three views you expressed above. Why do I need to provide evidence, when you do not?
Second, your objections are not to my position, but to what you desire my position to be.
Third, You are stuck in trying to assign singular motives to actions.

Do you even know what my position is? At this point, I do not believe that you are paying attention to what I have stated repeatedly. Just like when you were insisting that I was talking about copying holidays, you seem to be stuck in your personal misconstruction my position is. Anything I say that does not fit your misconstruction, you just ignore.

To repeat myself(again):
As I pointed out before, "Is Christmas Pagan" is a meaningless and misleading question.

When Christmas was invented, extant pagan practices were adopted several into the observances and rites of Christmas. Even if we did not have evidence of intent and debate on the matter among early Christian theologians and historians, it would still be an inevitable phenomenon. Does that appropriation make Christianity Pagan? Does the appropriation of the Jewish Bible make Christianity Jewish?

Fedex bought Kinkos and hung out signs that said "FedEx Kinkos" for about a decade before removing the "Kinko's" from the sign. Is it still Kinko's in any meaningful way? No. Did FedEx ease its appropriation of Kinko's name recognition, revenue and customer base? Yes. Did leaving the existing stores in the same place with the same function help? Yes.
There is nothing pure about Christianity. It is an agglomeration of cultures, just like every other culture in human history. It is an agglomeration of the cultures from which it sprang. It is an agglomeration of the cultures that it appropriated and conflicted. Just like every other culture in human history.
 
  • Yule
    A pagan tradition that celebrates the rebirth of the sun. Some ways to celebrate Yule include building a Yule altar, decorating a Yule tree, burning a Yule log, and exchanging nature-based gifts.


  • Saturnalia
    An ancient Roman festival that took place around the winter solstice and marked the end of the planting season.


  • Yaldā
    A Persian festival that celebrates the winter solstice and the victory of light over dark. It also marks the birthday of the sun god Mithra.


    • Inti Raymi
      A festival in Peru that honors Inti, the sun god. It takes place on the winter solstice in June.
    • Dongzhi Festival
      A festival in China and parts of East Asia that celebrates the winter solstice and the rebalancing of yin and yang energies in nature. The name Dong Zhi translates to "Winter Arrives" in Chinese.

If we ignore the fact that Saturnalia is not a solstice festival and there is no real evidence of Yule being a solstice festival either (Although there is evidence of a different festival Modranicht - albeit 8th C evidence so not necessarily attesting to its pre-Christian origins), we aren't going to draw causative connections between Inti Raymi, Yule and Dongzi.

We know that lots of festivals at similar times of the year developed independently of each other and for different reasons (as your post explains).

Why then do people assume a causative relationship between Christmas and Yule, Saturnalia, Sol Invictus, and whatever else? No one asks the question "Is Yule Zoroastrian?" for example, or "Is Saturnalia Chinese folk religion?"
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
If we ignore the fact that Saturnalia is not a solstice festival and there is no real evidence of Yule being a solstice festival either (Although there is evidence of a different festival Modranicht - albeit 8th C evidence so not necessarily attesting to its pre-Christian origins), we aren't going to draw causative connections between Inti Raymi, Yule and Dongzi.
I find the above conclusions very questionable and biased. Regardless of whether Saturnalia is solstice festival that is when it was celebrated,

I believe the above you mentioned were definitely pre-Christian in origin as cited,

Yule, a winter festival that originated with the ancient Norse, is one of the oldest winter solstice festivals:


  • Origins
    Yule is thought to have originated as a Norse festival called jol. The word Yule also appears in Old English as geol.


  • Themes
    Common themes of Yule celebrations include light, fire, and feasting.


  • Celebrations
    Yule was celebrated in a variety of ways, including over two months, 12 days, or three days.


    • Symbols
      Symbols of Yule include evergreens, the Yule log, a Yule tree, mistletoe, holly, wreaths, and bells.

    • Honored figures
      Odin, the god of death and transition, is often honored at Yule. Freyr is also honored for the new year, and Thor is honored for driving back the Frost Giants.

    • Merging with Christmas
      During the reign of King Haakon Haraldsson, the Norse Yule celebration merged with Christmas. Christmas eventually overtook Yule, but many Yule traditions and symbols remain.
    • Modern celebrations
      Today, some Neo-Pagans celebrate Yule by burning a Yule log and feasting. Some Christmas customs and traditions, such as the Yule log, Yule goat, and Yule singing, may have connections to older pagan Yule traditions.
Described in more detail in" Yule - Wikipedia.
We know that lots of festivals at similar times of the year developed independently of each other and for different reasons (as your post explains).
This does not address that these traditions and choice of dates are based on prior traditions and beleifs,
Why then do people assume a causative relationship between Christmas and Yule, Saturnalia, Sol Invictus, and whatever else? No one asks the question "Is Yule Zoroastrian?" for example, or "Is Saturnalia Chinese folk religion?"

No one asks these questions because there is not evidence that this is the case. Zoroastrians and Chinese folk religions celebrated their own winter solstice celebrations,
 
Regardless of whether Saturnalia is solstice festival that is when it was celebrated,

No it wasn't. It was 17 December. Not the Solstice, and not a Solstice festival.

Saying anything that happens in December or January is a "Solstice festival" is fallacious.

(Until the Julian calendar was introduced the Roman calendar didn't even align well enough with the sun/moon to make solstice festivals on a fixed date a meaningful thing and they didn't really care about solstices, the idea that all "pagans" were obsessed with solstices is not correct, some cared about them, some didn't).

Yule, a winter festival that originated with the ancient Norse, is one of the oldest winter solstice festivals:

Evidence for this claim? Which is the earliest source that supports this?

AFAIK, it is not attested to before the 5thC, and even that reference is not to a solstice festival but a month/season.

Perhaps it is ancient, but that would require evidence better than an unsourced wikipedia claim.

Described in more detail in" Yule - Wikipedia.

Detail you evidently didn't bother to read...

Yule is attested early in the history of the Germanic peoples; in a Gothic language calendar of the 5–6th century CE it appears in the month name fruma jiuleis, and, in the 8th century, the English historian Bede wrote that the Anglo-Saxon calendar included the months geola or giuli corresponding to either modern December or December and January.[10]

The exact dating of the pre-Christian Yule celebrations is unclear and debated among scholars. Snorri in Hákonar saga góða describes how the three-day feast began on "Midwinter Night", however this is distinct from the winter solstice, occurring approximately one month later. Andreas Nordberg proposes that Yule was celebrated on the full moon of the second Yule month in the Early Germanic calendar (the month that started on the first new moon after the winter solstice), which could range from 5 January to 2 February in the Gregorian calendar. Nordberg positions the Midwinter Nights from 19 to 21 January in the Gregorian calendar, falling roughly in the middle of Nordberg's range of Yule dates. In addition to Snorri's account, Nordberg's dating is also consistent with the account of the great blót at Lejre by Thietmar of Merseburg.[20]

This does not address that these traditions and choice of dates are based on prior traditions and beleifs,

This does not address you are simply asserting a connection, not providing evidence for one.

No one asks these questions because there is not evidence that this is the case. Zoroastrians and Chinese folk religions celebrated their own winter solstice

A critical thinker might ask themselves what evidence there is for their claims...
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
No it wasn't. It was 17 December. Not the Solstice, and not a Solstice festival.

Saying anything that happens in December or January is a "Solstice festival" is fallacious.

(Until the Julian calendar was introduced the Roman calendar didn't even align well enough with the sun/moon to make solstice festivals on a fixed date a meaningful thing and they didn't really care about solstices, the idea that all "pagans" were obsessed with solstices is not correct, some cared about them, some didn't).



Evidence for this claim? Which is the earliest source that supports this?

AFAIK, it is not attested to before the 5thC, and even that reference is not to a solstice festival but a month/season.

Perhaps it is ancient, but that would require evidence better than an unsourced wikipedia claim.



Detail you evidently didn't bother to read...

Yule is attested early in the history of the Germanic peoples; in a Gothic language calendar of the 5–6th century CE it appears in the month name fruma jiuleis, and, in the 8th century, the English historian Bede wrote that the Anglo-Saxon calendar included the months geola or giuli corresponding to either modern December or December and January.[10]

The exact dating of the pre-Christian Yule celebrations is unclear and debated among scholars. Snorri in Hákonar saga góða describes how the three-day feast began on "Midwinter Night", however this is distinct from the winter solstice, occurring approximately one month later. Andreas Nordberg proposes that Yule was celebrated on the full moon of the second Yule month in the Early Germanic calendar (the month that started on the first new moon after the winter solstice), which could range from 5 January to 2 February in the Gregorian calendar. Nordberg positions the Midwinter Nights from 19 to 21 January in the Gregorian calendar, falling roughly in the middle of Nordberg's range of Yule dates. In addition to Snorri's account, Nordberg's dating is also consistent with the account of the great blót at Lejre by Thietmar of Merseburg.[20]



This does not address you are simply asserting a connection, not providing evidence for one.



A critical thinker might ask themselves what evidence there is for their claims...
They were traditions later adapted by Christians. The Saturnalia celebration as actually originally 17-23. I was a Winter Solstice Celebration. The calendar math in Rome at the time was irregular. They added and took away days at the whim of the emperor, December 25th ws considered the Winter Solstice.
 
They were traditions later adapted by Christians. The Saturnalia celebration as actually originally 17-23.

No it wasn't.

It was originally shorter, was increased to 17-23rd for a short time, centuries before the dating of Christmas occurred and was then shortened again by Augustus.

I was a Winter Solstice Celebration.

No it wasn't. It was a festival for Saturn, hence the name.

Traditionally, Romans didn't really care about the solstice.

December 25th ws considered the Winter Solstice.

In the Julian calendar, not the pre-Julian Roman calendar which was too imprecise.

I note you offered no evidence for your other claims, just further errors and misunderstandings on Saturnalia. Funny that.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Christmas on 6th?

Christmas is celebrated on the 7th.
At least by Eastern Orthodox.
Yes, you are correct about the Eastern Orthodox, because their calendar runs behind.

I googled about Jan 6, and what I found was this. Before the Church finalized Dec 25 as the standard for the whole church, there were quite a variety of different dates Christians celebrated Jesus' nativity, Dec 25 being just one of them. In fact, the date of the celebration varied from bishopric to bishopric. Jan 6 was one of the alternative dates.

The Armenian Apostolic Church is a Christian church in the branch known as Oriental Orthodox, and is the national church of Armenia. This branch kept the festival on Jan 6 before the decision was made for all Christians to use Dec 25. Now, either they just ignored that declaration, OR when the Oriental Orthodox church broke away over the Council of Chalcedon, they RETURNED to their earlier tradition. But I don't know which. All I know is that today, Jan 6 is still the day they celebrate Christmas.
 
First, You did not provide evidence for the three views you expressed above. Why do I need to provide evidence, when you do not?

Why say things you know aren’t true?

I provided extensive evidence for in earlier posts. You even complained about it a couple of days ago and claimed to have “looked into it” it in your last post.

There is nothing pure about Christianity. It is an agglomeration of cultures, just like every other culture in human history. It is an agglomeration of the cultures from which it sprang. It is an agglomeration of the cultures that it appropriated and conflicted. Just like every other culture in human history.

No one is saying Christianity is “pure”. Many aspects of Christianity are indeed direct adaptations and borrowings from different cultures.

It just seems that neither the dating of Christmas or any significant aspects of the modern festivities are among these.

If your point is simply “nothing emerges out of a vacuum”, that’s obviously true. But so what?

This doesn’t mean everything is simply directly co-opted from the previous generation, cultures are also creative in ways that are not simply “appropriation”, “hanging new painted tarps over old” or people enacting a crude marketing ploy.
 

Димитар

Прaвославие!
Yes, you are correct about the Eastern Orthodox, because their calendar runs behind.
I googled about Jan 6, and what I found was this. Before the Church finalized Dec 25 as the standard for the whole church, there were quite a variety of different dates Christians celebrated Jesus' nativity, Dec 25 being just one of them. In fact, the date of the celebration varied from bishopric to bishopric. Jan 6 was one of the alternative dates.
Celebrating Christmas in December is tied to the pagan tradition of holding celebrations for the winter solstice, which is around Dec 21.

You say the Church , but in fact you only refer to the Roman Catholic Church.
They changed very much theologically from the early teachings.
They are not trustworthy source.

We are also Catholics , friend.

We Orthodox have Catholic faith and the full name of the Church is Orthodox Catholic Church.

We are Orthodox because Orthodox means 'that which was from the begining'.
Eastern is what separates us geographically from others.

As for the 6th and the 7th and the issue with the Oriental Church , that is quite a long discussion.

First we don't celebrate by calendar , but by when Jesus was born.

Jesus was born in January , not in December.
All evidence suggest that.
This can be explained.

Jesus died Friday, April 3, AD 33 at about 3 p.m., a few hours before the beginning of Passover day and the Sabbath.
This is the date in the Julian calendar, which had been introduced in 45 BC, and follows the convention that historical dates adhere to the calendar in use at the time.


That the calendar is changed , does not change that fact when Jesus was born.

That is why Easter does not have a date , because it is related to the spring equinox from the Julian calendar.

If we were following the Julian calendar today , then Easter 2024 would not be the 31st of March , but 5 of May.

Fun fact:
"The first full moon of the spring season 2024 was on the nights of Sunday, March 24,

They should ask themselfs why do they Celebrate it 1 week later.

The Gregorian calendar is the most correct calendar , nobody is denying that.

But when it comes to Christmas and Easter we celebrate it by the Julian.

We celebrate Christmas on 7th because it ascociates with the date on the Julian calendar.

Otherwise we would have to celebrate it on different days.

Easter is related to Pascha and the spring equinox.


The Calculation hypothesis suggests that 7th of January was chosen because it was nine months after a date chosen as Jesus's conception (the Annunciation)

But as i said , we have no business with heretics and their changing dogmas.

We have parted from them , but in fact theologically it is they who parted from us.


The Armenian Apostolic Church is a Christian church in the branch known as Oriental Orthodox, and is the national church of Armenia. This branch kept the festival on Jan 6 before the decision was made for all Christians to use Dec 25. Now, either they just ignored that declaration, OR when the Oriental Orthodox church broke away over the Council of Chalcedon, they RETURNED to their earlier tradition. But I don't know which. All I know is that today, Jan 6 is still the day they celebrate Christmas.
Yeah , i have to consult someone however about the differences with the Oriental Church.
 
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Димитар

Прaвославие!
Yes it is by the facts of the time and many things surrounding the celebration. The date chosen is a Roman holiday for Saturnalia and the birth of the sun god, Sol Invictus.

Many of rest of the traditions are associated with European practices celebrating the Winter solstice.

Here are some traditions for celebrating the winter solstice:
  • Yule
    A pagan tradition that celebrates the rebirth of the sun. Some ways to celebrate Yule include building a Yule altar, decorating a Yule tree, burning a Yule log, and exchanging nature-based gifts.


  • Saturnalia
    An ancient Roman festival that took place around the winter solstice and marked the end of the planting season.


  • Yaldā
    A Persian festival that celebrates the winter solstice and the victory of light over dark. It also marks the birthday of the sun god Mithra.


    • Inti Raymi
      A festival in Peru that honors Inti, the sun god. It takes place on the winter solstice in June.

    • Dongzhi Festival
      A festival in China and parts of East Asia that celebrates the winter solstice and the rebalancing of yin and yang energies in nature. The name Dong Zhi translates to "Winter Arrives" in Chinese.

Other ways to celebrate the winter solstice include: Celebrating in candlelight, Setting up a meditation space, and Giving back to nature.
There are far more aspects of Christian theology adopted Roman and Hellenist beliefs that deviated from its Jewish heritage to make it an eclectic religion,

Actually this more true than you would think considering the many celebrations celebrated by Christians including Easter, and Day of the dead celebrated throughout the Americas.

The solstices and equinoxes are ancient celebrations practiced today in many religions. Example many Buddhists celebrate Peace Day on the Winter Solstice.
Let's start with a question.

Do you think that Christmas and Easter have the same roots in Western as in Eastern Christianity?
 

ChieftheCef

Well-Known Member
Now try every other language...

Pascha..... errrrrr, Ishtar? Amirite!
Pashcha Ashtaroth. They name the spring after her because she is the true goddess, you can't actually disprove her

No you are not right! I studied this for years and years looking under my nose
 

ChieftheCef

Well-Known Member
Well said.

When Christmas was invented, extant pagan practices were adopted several into the observances and rites of Christmas. Even if we did not have evidence of intent and debate on the matter among early Christian theologians and historians, it would still be an inevitable phenomenon. Does that appropriation make Christianity Pagan? Does the appropriation of the Jewish Bible make Christianity Jewish?

Yeah they were a Jewsih sect starting out, just liek Judiasim was originally a portion of paganism. Yahweh is the deity of the Canaanites who is less than El. One day a bunch of Yahwhists who hated the Goddess tried their best to wipe the Goddess from their world. They didn't do so well, but still practically no one knows the Goddess.

Check out this book. Freeing yourself from antinature would give you so many benefits it's probably the best avenue to go, just don't get lost. Look up my posts on happiness, there would will find a class and hopefully you'll not stare in the great darkness that is the Goddess (space and us and stuff) and feel existential dread. Important to have your purpose too. Amazon.com
 

ChieftheCef

Well-Known Member
Again, so what??????

Again, so what?????
So it constitutes all of religion of which 1/3 is a lie (monotheism) It's not just monality, it is monality becoming duality. The aspects of the goddess is all of the facets of reality. That's why she's omnipotent. It is also a lie because badness composes goodness. But I'll be uncovering more of the truth based on modern science.
 
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