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Is Christmas......

DNB

Christian
And every person with Google and 15 or so seconds knows that Saturnalia didn't take place on 25th Dec, it was around about a week earlier.

Some of them also know that Saturnalia continued to be celebrated on a different date alongside Christmas well into the 5th C.

Aside from being on a different date and not being a replacement, it's a winning theory though :D
...and anyone with a little bit of sense in their head does not get pedantic about particular details that have absolutely nothing to do with the point at hand - Christ was not born on Dec 25th, nor anywhere necessarily near that date. It's association with Dec 25th was not based on theological acumen, but audacious and misguided impetuosity - emulating some form of an existing pagan festival.

Aside from missing the point entirely, you did offer some useless trivia.
 
...and anyone with a little bit of sense in their head does not get pedantic about particular details that have absolutely nothing to do with the point at hand - Christ was not born on Dec 25th, nor anywhere necessarily near that date. It's association with Dec 25th was not based on theological acumen, but audacious and misguided impetuosity - emulating some form of an existing pagan festival.

I personally don't consider correcting obvious factual inaccuracies that are used as the foundation for popular myths to be 'pedantic', but each to their own.

Also, it's dating was likely based entirely on 'theological acumen'. It was part of an early Christian trend to do calendrical calculations, and wasn't about finding some date for a feast to copy the pagans.

The dating likely significantly precedes any celebrations of the date.
 

DNB

Christian
I personally don't consider correcting obvious factual inaccuracies that are used as the foundation for popular myths to be 'pedantic', but each to their own.

Also, it's dating was likely based entirely on 'theological acumen'. It was part of an early Christian trend to do calendrical calculations, and wasn't about finding some date for a feast to copy the pagans.

The dating likely significantly precedes any celebrations of the date.
My point was, attempting to extrapolate scriptural information that the Bible just does not divulge, is misguided - the Bible explains things on a need-to-know basis - everything else is frivolous speculation.
Yes, you are correct in that the theologians who undertake such an endeavour believe that they are using a Biblically based deduction i.e. 'theological acumen'. But, again, such an exercise is futile since Scripture does not elaborate on those specific issues, ...because there's absolutely no significance to them. And, thus, my ultimate conclusion: Christmas is a corruption of what is meant to be true reverence and devotion.
 

Messianic Israelite

Active Member

Is Xmas pagan? Kenny in msg #2 has said 'if you want it to be' but I personally would call that flattery. The inability to say 'thus says Yahweh' will lead us to liberalize and set our standards low and low standards will not get us in to the Kingdom. Lying and flattery are considered very similarly in the Bible, see Proverbs 26:28 and rebuke is to preferred than flattery (Proverbs 28:23).To ask whether Xmas is pagan is to ask whether his festivity originates with the Bible, or another source. The simple answer is, of course Xmas is pagan.

Ch-rchianity "prooftexts" its doctrines and attempts to explain from the scriptures where their keeping of these holidays originated. However, upon close examination one soon discovers that these explanations do not in any way relate to what the Bible teaches. Although there is no proof, the reason Ch-rchianity offers for continuing to observe their holidays that are clearly "prooftexted", and have no relationship whatsoever with the Bible, is that they are popular. The holidays are based on traditions of men rather than upon proven fact (Matthew 15:7-9 and Isaiah 29:13-14). The winter holiday of Chr-stmas must be characterized as an unparalleled paradox in the realm of Ch-stian doctrine and practice. Since it is Ch-rchianity's principal holiday, it is the most widely observed. The first problem we encounter is with the name - "Chr-stmas" which is never found in the Bible. The etymology of the term is a combination of the two terms "Chr-st" and "mass". I won't cover this in this thread, but Chr-st is not the title of the son of Yahweh, who is our Redeemer, but His genuine title should be the Hebrew term Messiah. Further, the word "mass" is never found in the Sacred Scriptures, nor is the term Chr-stmas.

The cherished traditions that cling to the Chr-stmas celebration are not found anywhere in the Bible either. Where do we find in the Bible Santa Claus, reindeer's, a yule log, Chr-stmas trees, mistletoe, the drinking of alcoholic beverages etc relating to the birthday of the Messiah? The answer is: nowhere do these symbols appear in the Word of Yahweh.

Why, then, are people avidly keeping the Chr-stmas celebration with the traditional symbolism that cannot be found in the Bible? Why are even so-called religious people teaching their children lies, yet simultaneously they will demand their children to speak the truth. I suspect that religious people who keep Xmas don't truly believe in the inspiration of the Bible, nor submit to its authority. For those who shrug off Chr-stmas as simply celebrating the birthday of the Messiah, I might point out that there is absolutely no commandment in the Bible to observe a birthday. We are however to remember his death at the Passover. In the three occasions where birthday's were observed in the Bible, violence and death occurred (Genesis 40:20, Job 1, Matthew 14:6). Perhaps it would be wise to consider what King Solomon wrote in Ecclesiastes 7:1-4:

"A good name is better than precious oil; and the day of death, than the day of one's birth. 2 It is better to go to the house of mourning than to go to the house of feasting: for that is the end of all men; and the living will lay it to his heart. 3 Sorrow is better than laughter: for by the sadness of the countenance the heart is made glad. 4 The heart of the wise is in the house of mourning; but the heart of fools is in the house of mirth."

There is no commandment to keep the birthday of the Messiah holy.

Secret Chief briefly mentioned the Saturnalia, which predates Chr-stmas, yet was kept at the same time, so I assume the pagan roots are known here on RF at least to the extent of the Paganalia and Saturnalia. Of course, the pagan roots go beyond that. Further, I want to mention that the Pilgrim Fathers rejected Xmas. In the book, The History of Plymouth Colony by William Bradford, there appears a note about such on page 126. Also the Encyclopedia Britannica, Eleventh Edition, in the article Chr-stmas says the Puritans forbad any merriment or religious service on Chr-stmas on the grounds that it was a heathen festival and ordered it to be kept as a fast.

Ultimately, we are all our own judges. By our own decisions we judge ourselves worthy or unworthy to be in the Kingdom of Yahweh. I won't be celebrating Chr-stmas, as I have continued to do all my life, and I won't be teaching my children to keep it either, perpetuating the lie that seemingly psychologically damages children in to viewing what their elders say as being suspect. May Yahweh bless all those who choose to please Yahweh the right way, by keeping His commandments and rejecting pagan practices.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
The cherished traditions that cling to the Chr-stmas celebration are not found anywhere in the Bible either. Where do we find in the Bible Santa Claus, reindeer's, a yule log, Chr-stmas trees, mistletoe, the drinking of alcoholic beverages etc relating to the birthday of the Messiah? The answer is: nowhere do these symbols appear in the Word of Yahweh.
These are just "side-bar" celebrations, whereas if one goes to Christmas mass it is VERY clear why we are really there for.

I won't be celebrating Chr-stmas, as I have continued to do all my life, and I won't be teaching my children to keep it either, perpetuating the lie that seemingly psychologically damages children in to viewing what their elders say as being suspect.
Your choice of course, and I certainly don't have a problem with that.

May Yahweh bless all those who choose to please Yahweh the right way, by keeping His commandments and rejecting pagan practices.
All 613 Commandments? A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments) - Judaism 101 (JewFAQ)
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
The cherished traditions that cling to the Chr-stmas celebration are not found anywhere in the Bible either. Where do we find in the Bible Santa Claus, reindeer's, a yule log, Chr-stmas trees, mistletoe, the drinking of alcoholic beverages etc relating to the birthday of the Messiah? The answer is: nowhere do these symbols appear in the Word of Yahweh.

I think you are confusing the religious (found in the Nativity accounts) with the secular celebrations.
 

Messianic Israelite

Active Member
These are just "side-bar" celebrations, whereas if one goes to Christmas mass it is VERY clear why we are really there for.

Your choice of course, and I certainly don't have a problem with that.

All 613 Commandments? A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments) - Judaism 101 (JewFAQ)

Hi metis. Good evening. In my faith, the Assemblies of Yahweh, we keep all of the commandments. Yes, according to Maimonides they are 365 negative commandments and 248 positive commandments. However, many of these commandments relate to the sacrificial laws which Yahshua fulfilled in Him being the perfect sacrifice for us.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Hi metis. Good evening. In my faith, the Assemblies of Yahweh, we keep all of the commandments. Yes, according to Maimonides they are 365 negative commandments and 248 positive commandments. However, many of these commandments relate to the sacrificial laws which Yahshua fulfilled in Him being the perfect sacrifice for us.
Which translates to "No, we don't keep all the Commandments.".
 

Messianic Israelite

Active Member
Which translates to "No, we don't keep all the Commandments.".
Hi metis. Good evening. No, it still translates to, we keep all of Yahweh's commandments as indicated by Revelation 12:17 and Revelation 14:12. We now keep a spiritual sacrifice rather than animal sacrifices, meal, and drink offerings, Hebrews 13:15-16; 1 Peter 2:5; Romans 12:1; Philippians 4:18. If we kept the sacrificial laws, we would be denying Yahshua as the perfect sacrifice for humankind (Isaiah 53). We therefore keep the sacrificial laws by accepting Yahshua as our Messiah.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Symbols and calendar dates are not owned by anyone. It doesn't matter squat that a yule log was first used by some other group or that the Catholic church has a holy day of obligation on Dec 25. What matters is how things are used TODAY, in THIS culture. So I don't think anyone is celebrating Mithras anymore. Yes Christians still celebrate the religious side of Christmas. But honestly, Christmas has burst through its religious beginnings to become a slam dunk secular holiday. That's why 93% of Americans celebrated christmas in 2019, according to What Percentage of Americans Celebrate Christmas? . Now we all know very well, they weren't all Christians. They certainly weren't all pagans.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Personally I have no more of a problem celebrating Christmas than I do of celebrating Halloween. Both started out as religious holidays but both are very secular today.
Why would that cause you problems? Do you celebrate mother's day, labor day, valentine's day and other secular holidays?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Hi metis. Good evening. No, it still translates to, we keep all of Yahweh's commandments as indicated by Revelation 12:17 and Revelation 14:12. We now keep a spiritual sacrifice rather than animal sacrifices, meal, and drink offerings, Hebrews 13:15-16; 1 Peter 2:5; Romans 12:1; Philippians 4:18. If we kept the sacrificial laws, we would be denying Yahshua as the perfect sacrifice for humankind (Isaiah 53). We therefore keep the sacrificial laws by accepting Yahshua as our Messiah.
That's not how it works as one cannot say they observe all of the Law but use excuses, valid or not, to not observe some of the Law.

According to the Gospel, Jesus said that there are only Two Commandments that a Christian must observe as all of the Law is embedded in his response. IOW, those two Laws deal with our obligation, and all the other Commandments that are under Jewish Law [halacha] are basically commentary.
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
I think so. This has been covered before in the forum, I think. I mean, hardly any of the practices we associate with celebrating Christmas are in the bible, barring maybe the gift giving. And gift-giving itself doesn't really stick to a specific tradition, and people probably gave gifts to people they thought were gods for a long time.

As far as the wreaths and christmas tree thing goes, and the idea of santa and the elves, that has to be almost completely post-biblical, or non-biblical. It has to be almost completely certain, that pre-christian peoples would have perceived the evergreen tree has having some kind of supernatural quality, given that they clearly seem to 'live on,' when everything else appears to go dead. Elves or elf-like creatures are surely part of pagan myths, that were recorded, and that anyone can probably take the time to go read about.

And why would the sort of more mystical winter symbolism at this time of year come from the bible, where the setting is probably not very often one where winter happens. Tell me, how would that make any sense.
 
It doesn't matter squat that a yule log was first used by some other group

And, like almost all the other 'pagan trimmings', that seems to have originated in a Christian context long after the decline of paganism.

I mean, hardly any of the practices we associate with celebrating Christmas are in the bible, barring maybe the gift giving. And gift-giving itself doesn't really stick to a specific tradition, and people probably gave gifts to people they thought were gods for a long time.

Gift giving was more of an early modern thing too rather than a traditional practice.

As far as the wreaths and christmas tree thing goes, and the idea of santa and the elves, that has to be almost completely post-biblical, or non-biblical. It has to be almost completely certain, that pre-christian peoples would have perceived the evergreen tree has having some kind of supernatural quality, given that they clearly seem to 'live on,' when everything else appears to go dead. Elves or elf-like creatures are surely part of pagan myths, that were recorded, and that anyone can probably take the time to go read about.

While some pagans presumably did venerate trees, the Christmas tree emerged far too late to be a pagan borrowing. It emerged in 17th C and only became popular in the 19th C.

Elves, reindeer and the modern Santa are late 19th early 20th C Americana, although are evolutions of Saint Nicholas (via Dutch immigrants) who is quite interesting as he was a Crusader icon, paid dowries for women who would have been forced into prostitution (perhaps a link to gift giving) and resurrected the chopped up remains of pickled children (which definitely happened and is not at all made up :D).
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
And, like almost all the other 'pagan trimmings', that seems to have originated in a Christian context long after the decline of paganism.



Gift giving was more of an early modern thing too rather than a traditional practice.



While some pagans presumably did venerate trees, the Christmas tree emerged far too late to be a pagan borrowing. It emerged in 17th C and only became popular in the 19th C.

Elves, reindeer and the modern Santa are late 19th early 20th C Americana, although are evolutions of Saint Nicholas (via Dutch immigrants) who is quite interesting as he was a Crusader icon, paid dowries for women who would have been forced into prostitution (perhaps a link to gift giving) and resurrected the chopped up remains of pickled children (which definitely happened and is not at all made up :D).
People may have continued some pagan practices for generations after the end of paganism. Do you think that someone was suddenly inspired to hack a tree down and put it up in his living room?
 
People may have continued some pagan practices for generations after the end of paganism.

It's not impossible, but there is no evidence that they did and the length of time makes it highly unlikely which is compounded by the lack of evidence of there being any comparable pagan tradition to 'steal'.

Just like the "Christmas is Saturnalia" myth, it's an assumption lacking any real justification.

Do you think that someone was suddenly inspired to hack a tree down and put it up in his living room?

No, they didn't start as home decorations.
 
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