Is "Cruelty" Ever Justified?

[Treasure Hunter]

The Bible does say Christ was sinless.
Hebrews 4:15 ...we have one who has been tested in all respects as we have, but without sin.
Hebrews 7:26 says, Jesus was "separated from the sinners".

The scripture you quoted, in Peter, says Jesus committed no sin.
This tells us that Jesus did not sin - did not do wrong.

God create no one sinful. that is a no-brainer.
So all the angels, as well as Adam and Eve were created sinless.

Some people don't seem to know that Jesus was created in heaven long before coming to earth as a human. They seem to think that Jesus first came into existence from the womb of Mary.
I hope you are not speaking from that misconception.

The reason Jesus was born sinless, is as the angel told Mary, “Holy spirit will come upon you, and power of the Most High will overshadow you. And for that reason the one who is born will be called holy, God’s Son." Luke 1:35

Jesus, therefore, was not born from defective seed, as from Adam, and his offspring, and so sin was not passed on to him. Hence, Jesus was perfect from birth - the only man born without sin... apart for Adam.

So in both cases -

• being created in heaven as a spirit son
• being born on earth as a human

Jesus was sinless.

The mistake most people make, is associating sinless, with cannot sin.
That is a huge misunderstanding, which I hope you are not following suit.
Are you?

Jesus could sin - that is, he could break God's law; disobey God.
Jesus however, obeyed God, because he loves his father, and always does the things pleasing to God, because he wants to, of his own free will.
'the One who sent me is with me; he did not abandon me to myself, because I always do the things pleasing to him.' John 8:29

Adam could have done the same. Adam was created without sin.
We can choose to obey God, in our imperfect sinful state, but we will fall short, always, because we are sinful... not sinless.

So the assertion "God is alleged to have created Jesus obedient after all", is not scriptural.
Sinless - without sin - does not mean obedient, any more than obedient means sinless. Sinful people are obedient to God.
So is one sinless, because they obey God? No. That is not accurate.
Neither is it logical, is it.

Did Jesus ever have sinful thoughts, desires, or impulses?

 

[nPeace]

No, I don't think it is likely. We seem to have aggression and greed built in, and those that have them most tend to get themselves into leadership positions.

I agree that willful ignorance is not an honest mistake. Where I disagree is categorizing all honest mistakes as willful ignorance. Hmm, we have an example here. Do you think I am willfully ignorant? I've spent a lot of time looking into these things and as far as I can tell I genuinely don't believe as you do. Go ahead, I won't be offended. You can ask me questions if you like, I'll answer as accurately as I can.

I will answer that by saying what is the only correct answer. Only the Great Judge of all the earth, knows who is willfully ignorant, because he knows the heart. That is why he gets to judge you. Not me.
Hence 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9. It's fair, then.

With no belief in God, I can only say that we either direct our own "steps" or nobody does. And the fact that we haven't been too successful in many ways doesn't affect that. It's the different world views again.

Well, as they say, "You're on your own." I don't believe in luck, so I won't say, "Good luck with that."

 

[Treasure Hunter]

In my view one cannot be both born a sinner and sinless at the same time

Identity is not static and can reconcile seeming contradiction. Are you not both one (one body) and multiple (multi-cellular)?

The fluidity and dynamism of identity can reconcile being born both a sinner and sinless in the same way that it can reconcile being one and many.

 

[nPeace]

Guidance and advice would be great, but I'd want to retain the right to make the ultimate decisions.

You think a child making a decision to listen to its parents is not making their ultimate decision?
What about the one who ran out into the street, and got hit by a bus? Or the teenager who sneaked out the door, and was found dead in the bushes a week later? Was that not their ultimate decision?
Or are you referring to something else?

Punishment, if that's the right word, would come from the results of my wrong decisions, not because I disobeyed my parents.

Are you saying you prefer not having parents set rules for you, and you prefer to make those yourself, regardless of how perfect those parents are?

Otherwise, what am I but a reflection of my parents? That's looking at it from the perspective of having human parents, which is how you phrased it.

Perfect human parents... is how I put it.
You do not want to be like perfect parents... is what you are saying?

From your description of God, the "perfect parent", though, it's more a demand for total obedience often without understanding the reasons behind the commands. After all, we can't understand right and wrong, correct?

Well, me as a "kid", and my dad tells me don't play in the street, or don't follow the "kids" in the neighborhood... I don't expect that he will tell me every detail about why not, but enough for me to understand why I shouldn't.

For example, my dad does not have to go into the details of what a car might do to me if I got hit, but why not to play in the road is enough.
For me, listening to someone who is far older, hence more experienced, makes more sense, than trying to walk in their boots, when I have not had the experience.

Even when I get to their age, they will still have more experience, and I can always learn something from them.
That's not preventing me from learning and finding out as I go along, that they were right. I am still making my decisions based on what I experience.
I'm talking about perfect parents here.

 

[nPeace]

Did Jesus ever have sinful thoughts, desires, or impulses?

Jesus said... out of the heart come wicked reasonings: murders, adulteries, sexual immorality, thefts, false testimonies, blasphemies. These are the things that defile a man... Matthew 15:19, 20

The Bible says... “The heart is more treacherous than anything else and is desperate. Who can know it? Jeremiah 17:9, 10.

Of Jesus Christ, the Bible says... He committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth. 1 Peter 2:22

How would you answer the question?

 

[Treasure Hunter]

Jesus said... out of the heart come wicked reasonings: murders, adulteries, sexual immorality, thefts, false testimonies, blasphemies. These are the things that defile a man... Matthew 15:19, 20

The Bible says... “The heart is more treacherous than anything else and is desperate. Who can know it? Jeremiah 17:9, 10.

Of Jesus Christ, the Bible says... He committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth. 1 Peter 2:22

How would you answer the question?

I think you have to say yes in order to honor the idea that he was tempted by the enemy.

 

[danieldemol]

Jesus had less agency and free-will than the rest of us? Is that what it means to be “fully man” to you?

You are knocking over a strawman as I never said Jesus was created without free-will, I said He is alleged to have been fully obedient to God.

Try to view what I was saying in the context of the assertion of @nPeace in post#103 that (paraphrasing) sin means disobedience to God.

In my opinion.

 

[danieldemol]

Jesus was put to death. He did not inherit sin. He did not die of a disease. He was killed according to mandate.

Relevance?

 

[danieldemol]

The Bible does say Christ was sinless.
Hebrews 4:15 ...we have one who has been tested in all respects as we have, but without sin.
Hebrews 7:26 says, Jesus was "separated from the sinners".

The scripture you quoted, in Peter, says Jesus committed no sin.
This tells us that Jesus did not sin - did not do wrong.

God create no one sinful. that is a no-brainer.
So all the angels, as well as Adam and Eve were created sinless.

Some people don't seem to know that Jesus was created in heaven long before coming to earth as a human. They seem to think that Jesus first came into existence from the womb of Mary.
I hope you are not speaking from that misconception.

The reason Jesus was born sinless, is as the angel told Mary, “Holy spirit will come upon you, and power of the Most High will overshadow you. And for that reason the one who is born will be called holy, God’s Son." Luke 1:35

Jesus, therefore, was not born from defective seed, as from Adam, and his offspring, and so sin was not passed on to him. Hence, Jesus was perfect from birth - the only man born without sin... apart for Adam.

So in both cases -

• being created in heaven as a spirit son
• being born on earth as a human

Jesus was sinless.

The mistake most people make, is associating sinless, with cannot sin.
That is a huge misunderstanding, which I hope you are not following suit.
Are you?

Jesus could sin - that is, he could break God's law; disobey God.
Jesus however, obeyed God, because he loves his father, and always does the things pleasing to God, because he wants to, of his own free will.
'the One who sent me is with me; he did not abandon me to myself, because I always do the things pleasing to him.' John 8:29

Adam could have done the same. Adam was created without sin.
We can choose to obey God, in our imperfect sinful state, but we will fall short, always, because we are sinful... not sinless.

We were allegedly created that way. God could have made us all as Adam or Jesus without inherited sin. We did not get to choose our inheritance.

So the assertion "God is alleged to have created Jesus obedient after all", is not scriptural.
Sinless - without sin - does not mean obedient, any more than obedient means sinless. Sinful people are obedient to God.
So is one sinless, because they obey God? No. That is not accurate.
Neither is it logical, is it.

I believe you are contracting your assertion in post #103 that (paraphrasing) sin is disobedience to God.

In my opinion.

 

[nPeace]

I think you have to say yes in order to honor the idea that he was tempted by the enemy.

To be tempted by... is what scripture says.
The tempter did not succeed, but failed, as scripture says.
So, no. Jesus was not tempted to do anything.

Joseph was face with a temptation, but he was not tempted.
Temptation exist everywhere in this world, but what is a temptation to one person, is not a temptation to another.
Are you tempted to gamble, drink alcohol, flirt with your boss' wife. Don't answer. It an example.

Jesus was not tempted by anything the Devil offered. The scriptures clearly show that.

 

[danieldemol]

Identity is not static and can reconcile seeming contradiction. Are you not both one (one body) and multiple (multi-cellular)?

The fluidity and dynamism of identity can reconcile being born both a sinner and sinless in the same way that it can reconcile being one and many.

In what way was Jesus born a sinner?

 

[Treasure Hunter]

To be tempted by... is what scripture says.
The tempter did not succeed, but failed, as scripture says.
So, no. Jesus was not tempted to do anything.

Joseph was face with a temptation, but he was not tempted.
Temptation exist everywhere in this world, but what is a temptation to one person, is not a temptation to another.
Are you tempted to gamble, drink alcohol, flirt with your boss' wife. Don't answer. It an example.

Jesus was not tempted by anything the Devil offered. The scriptures clearly show that.

Ok, then why do you say that Jesus was capable of sinning but didn’t?

If you are never tempted to sin, never have a desire or thought to sin, never feel compelled to sin, then how can you say you are capable of sinning?

 

[nPeace]

We were allegedly created that way. God could have made us all as Adam or Jesus without inherited sin. We did not get to choose our inheritance.

Good. We are getting somewhere.
So, rather than have two people, produce the human race, God creates everyone sinless. What now?
How does that make everyone obedient?

I believe you are contracting your assertion in post #103 that (paraphrasing) sin is disobedience to God.

In my opinion.

I looked, and don't see a contradiction.
What's the contradiction? Please specifically state it.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

In what way was Jesus born a sinner?

The obvious way.

 

[YoursTrue]

Relevance?

Is death cruel? If you believe in evolution rather than what the Bible says, again -- is death cruel?

 

[nPeace]

Ok, then why do you say that Jesus was capable of sinning but didn’t?

If you are never tempted to sin, never have a desire or thought to sin, never feel compelled to sin, then how can you say you are capable of sinning?

If you hate your dad, you may be tempted to join his enemies to get rid of him.
If you love your dad, the thought will never enter your mind.
The Bible says Jesus loves the father, and always does the things pleasing to the father; does only what the father wants; obeys the father.

Another scripture says he loves righteousness and hates lawlessness. Hebrews 1:9
That word hate is a strong word, expressing repulsion.
Jesus is complete with God. Connected like glue - the strongest kind - love Colossians 3:14, which comes from connection with God's spirit. Galatians 5:22

 

[Treasure Hunter]

If you hate your dad, you may be tempted to join his enemies to get rid of him.
If you love your dad, the thought will never enter your mind.
The Bible says Jesus loves the father, and always does the things pleasing to the father; does only what the father wants; obeys the father.

Another scripture says he loves righteousness and hates lawlessness. Hebrews 1:9
That word hate is a strong word, expressing repulsion.
Jesus is complete with God. Connected like glue - the strongest kind - love Colossians 3:14, which comes from connection with God's spirit. Galatians 5:22

Then, upon deeper examination, you actually don’t believe that he was capable of sinning. If he was only capable of doing the father’s will, then it is impossible for him to sin and sin has no part in him.

 

[nPeace]

Then, upon deeper examination, you actually don’t believe that he was capable of sinning. If he was only capable of doing the father’s will, then it is impossible for him to sin and sin has no part in him.

Jesus is not programmed. Jesus is not a robot. Jesus has free will.
Therefore, Jesus could sin - disobey God, if he wanted to... like his brother. Jesus does not want to.
Jesus wants to please God.

Is this proving too difficult for you?
Are you wanting things to be a particular way?

 

[nPeace]

Then, upon deeper examination, you actually don’t believe that he was capable of sinning. If he was only capable of doing the father’s will, then it is impossible for him to sin and sin has no part in him.

"... If he was only capable of doing the father’s will"?
Where did you get that from? Did you insert it for a reason?

 

[danieldemol]

Good. We are getting somewhere.
So, rather than have two people, produce the human race, God creates everyone sinless. What now?
How does that make everyone obedient?

Well according to the story it doesn't, but it does at least give us the opportunity to choose to remain obedient without facing death, that option is not available to nearly all humans after Adam. They have to die regardless.

I looked, and don't see a contradiction.
What's the contradiction? Please specifically state it.

The contradiction is that you said in post #103 (paraphrasing) sin is disobedience to God. Then you said in post #140 "Sinless - without sin - does not mean obedient"

In my opinion