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Is feminism still needed in the U.S.

Curious George

Veteran Member
o_O of course they do.

I agree that many find a huge issue with the word feminism, I have heard many people talk about when they accepted the "f-word" and why they had trouble with it. I believe many women have written on the subject within blogs and books, I do not know of any men who have written on the subject. There is definitely a stigma to the word, even within feminist movements. I can not tell you how many scoffs I have received from feminists when I have identified myself as one. Does that mean that is every feminist reaction? Absolutely not. As I said before, people tend to lump people into roles. Feminism is identified as feminism because of the history. Feminism today deals with the broader spectrum of gender issues but does indeed concern itself with "women's" issues but just because the issue deals directly with women or the femininity does not mean that "women's issues" only concern women. the name is a.semantic facet but a real issue nonetheless. Personally, I see unity in keeping such a name. The historic changes that were brought about by feminists of the past continue to motivate and inspire. In my mind the negative baggagge that the name carried is illusory. Many believe feminism is what they have been socialized to understand as feminism without ever critically thinking or analyzing the subject. Jokes, TV, limited exposure to only the most radical groups. Should christianity devise a new name because of the extremist churches, should muslims change for the same reason? In this facet, feminism is ideal because a huge part of feminism is critically thinking about how we are socialized with certain gender bias, second Ted talk I posted dealt with this. I am not saying you are wrong, perhaps better branding will help gather more support to deal with feminist issues, however I do think people should ask themselves why they can so easily accept terms like man, human, or mankind but the f-word is bad.
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
You built it. If you don't like it, smash it.

The caricature you have of me built it. You seem to attached to such a strawman to ever let him go :shrug:

You take him out for a while every time I speak my actual points so it can block the thing. I have no idea why you do it.

In any case, we all agree that women right movements are needed and will probably be needed for a good long while too right?
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
I agree that many find a huge issue with the word feminism, I have heard many people talk about when they accepted the "f-word" and why they had trouble with it. I believe many women have written on the subject within blogs and books, I do not know of any men who have written on the subject. There is definitely a stigma to the word, even within feminist movements. I can not tell you how many scoffs I have received from feminists when I have identified myself as one. Does that mean that is every feminist reaction? Absolutely not. As I said before, people tend to lump people into roles. Feminism is identified as feminism because of the history. Feminism today deals with the broader spectrum of gender issues but does indeed concern itself with "women's" issues but just because the issue deals directly with women or the femininity does not mean that "women's issues" only concern women. the name is a.semantic facet but a real issue nonetheless. Personally, I see unity in keeping such a name. The historic changes that were brought about by feminists of the past continue to motivate and inspire. In my mind the negative baggagge that the name carried is illusory. Many believe feminism is what they have been socialized to understand as feminism without ever critically thinking or analyzing the subject. Jokes, TV, limited exposure to only the most radical groups. Should christianity devise a new name because of the extremist churches, should muslims change for the same reason? In this facet, feminism is ideal because a huge part of feminism is critically thinking about how we are socialized with certain gender bias, second Ted talk I posted dealt with this. I am not saying you are wrong, perhaps better branding will help gather more support to deal with feminist issues, however I do think people should ask themselves why they can so easily accept terms like man, human, or mankind but the f-word is bad.

First of all thanks for actually understanding and addressing my point :)

I can totally see from where you are coming. When thinking about a change of name for a product (in this case the product is a social idea and the cost is the involvement one puts in it which will vary on degrees) that is one of the issues to face.

In general I liked the TED talks, they talked about interresting stuff, one of them I had already watched before you posted it here. As I said earlier I really liked one speaker when she said her mother was against "patriarchy" and she was against "inequity". I think this is the kind of healthy approach to take so that people that have a problem with the name will decrease in numbers.

Most people here will tell you "I am not a machista I am not a feminista, I am for equality" . This is what happens with that problematic branding. Maybe it was necessary for a time, but now that we are at leas tin ideology extremely more egualitarian (wch doesnt mean we are so completely or that we are so in actions and omitions) a re branding would do great good.
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
If you agree that feminism is needed, we have no argument.

Womens rights movements are needed, feminism needs some important changes in ideology and definetely a new name. But u dont want to talk about that and find it a diversion or aout of topic thing, so I am asking which other things you are interested on talking about on this thread :)
 

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
No, you will never, ever, ever be allowed to move on. You'll think the etymology / branding / marketing nonsense is finished with, then another thread will pop up and BOOM, there it is again. We won't be able to move on until we get a feminist DIR.

And that the word "patriarchy" is bad branding because it makes males look bad. It's just not fun to have a word that your gender is associated with when it comes to what looks good and what looks bad. We want women to have rights, too, but we don't like it if descriptors are used to make males look like the bad guys. Just only use gender-neutral descriptors when it comes to equal rights for all. But when it comes to reproductive rights and all, and anything that happens to contain uteruses, we'll ignore that these are gender-specific and focus on what makes males not look like the bad guys. Because really, that's so much more important than the actual issues at hand. Making sure that males don't look bad.

Am I right?
 

Alceste

Vagabond
The caricature you have of me built it. You seem to attached to such a strawman to ever let him go :shrug:

You take him out for a while every time I speak my actual points so it can block the thing. I have no idea why you do it.

In any case, we all agree that women right movements are needed and will probably be needed for a good long while too right?

When I say you built the box, I mean you drag out the same tired etymological fallacy in every single discussion of the subject. So you don't like the word feminism. Fine. I get it. Everybody gets it. Nobody is ever going to agree, though, that because the word feminism rubs you, personally, the wrong way, there is a major problem with feminism that feminists have to resolve before they can make any progress.

Guess what? We're making progress anyway, regardless of what you think of the word feminism. In my country, women only won the right to vote on the day my grandmother was born. Now half our provincial political leaders are women. That's only one lifetime. And for that entire lifetime, feminists were dealing with men and women who, like yourself, personally didn't like the word feminism. We still got the job done.

It's your box. You built it. If you want out, stop obsessing about the word and start thinking seriously about women's rights, how far we've come and how much work we still have left to do.
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
When I say you built the box, I mean you drag out the same tired etymological fallacy in every single discussion of the subject. So you don't like the word feminism. Fine. I get it. Everybody gets it. Nobody is ever going to agree, though, that because the word feminism rubs you, personally, the wrong way, there is a major problem with feminism that feminists have to resolve before they can make any progress.

Guess what? We're making progress anyway, regardless of what you think of the word feminism. In my country, women only won the right to vote on the day my grandmother was born. Now half our provincial political leaders are women. That's only one lifetime. And for that entire lifetime, feminists were dealing with men and women who, like yourself, personally didn't like the word feminism. We still got the job done.

It's your box. You built it. If you want out, stop obsessing about the word and start thinking seriously about women's rights, how far we've come and how much work we still have left to do.

You are the one who has no idea what I say beyond your caricatures :shrug:

Just cause you make a puppet mockery of what you think are my points doesnt mean I will pretend responsibility for such wretched thing :shrug:
 

MoonWater

Warrior Bard
Premium Member
I am listening.

Who has anything new to say about it?

We know women rights movements are needed, George provided good material for it.

that's been the whole purpose of this thread because there are many people who claim that women's rights movements are outdated and no longer necessary because women already have equal rights. After all they can vote right? That means they're equal right?

It's a stupid argument because of course women's rights movements are still needed, anyone who pays attention can see that. But the argument has a lot of supporters so here we are.

btw, when most people say feminism is no longer needed they are not talking about the word itself but the social and political movements that have been born out of that ideology and philosophy and those are the kinds of people this thread was meant to address. It was not meant to address those who get so hung up on their own perceived implications of a word's etymology that they take those implications as objective fact and claiming that they are the reason why people are against the movement instead of stopping to think that maybe different people get different implications from the term and as such one's own perceived implications of a movements label is not grounds to criticize the whole movement itself.
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
And that the word "patriarchy" is bad branding because it makes males look bad. It's just not fun to have a word that your gender is associated with when it comes to what looks good and what looks bad. We want women to have rights, too, but we don't like it if descriptors are used to make males look like the bad guys. Just only use gender-neutral descriptors when it comes to equal rights for all. But when it comes to reproductive rights and all, and anything that happens to contain uteruses, we'll ignore that these are gender-specific and focus on what makes males not look like the bad guys. Because really, that's so much more important than the actual issues at hand. Making sure that males don't look bad.

Am I right?

Pro-life feminism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
First of all thanks for actually understanding and addressing my point :)

I can totally see from where you are coming. When thinking about a change of name for a product (in this case the product is a social idea and the cost is the involvement one puts in it which will vary on degrees) that is one of the issues to face.

In general I liked the TED talks, they talked about interresting stuff, one of them I had already watched before you posted it here. As I said earlier I really liked one speaker when she said her mother was against "patriarchy" and she was against "inequity". I think this is the kind of healthy approach to take so that people that have a problem with the name will decrease in numbers.

Most people here will tell you "I am not a machista I am not a feminista, I am for equality" . This is what happens with that problematic branding. Maybe it was necessary for a time, but now that we are at leas tin ideology extremely more egualitarian (wch doesnt mean we are so completely or that we are so in actions and omitions) a re branding would do great good.

Which I admit is a valid notion, but part of the essence of feminism is to deconstruct branding. Btw while I understand your ism argument I think that it is important to note that while peoples ideas define isms no ism can define a person. I am a feminist, I will always be. but rest assured that is nor will ever be the only ism which I am or any feminist is or will ever be.
 

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
Which I admit is a valid notion, but part of the essence of feminism is to deconstruct branding. Btw while I understand your ism argument I think that it is important to note that while peoples ideas define isms no ism can define a person. I am a feminist, I will always be. but rest assured that is nor will ever be the only ism which I am or any feminist is or will ever be.

FWIW, I've never scoffed at males who say they are feminists. I embrace them.

I hope the bolded part is understood. A frubal is heading in your direction. :)
 

Pagan_Patriot

Active Member
Lol. I'd love to see a feminist stand off. Pro life feminists vs pro choice ones. Talk about a spkit movement ;x

Edit: split*
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
that's been the whole purpose of this thread because there are many people who claim that women's rights movements are outdated and no longer necessary because women already have equal rights. After all they can vote right? That means they're equal right?

It's a stupid argument because of course women's rights movements are still needed, anyone who pays attention can see that. But the argument has a lot of supporters so here we are.

btw, when most people say feminism is no longer needed they are not talking about the word itself but the social and political movements that have been born out of that ideology and philosophy and those are the kinds of people this thread was meant to address. It was not meant to address those who get so hung up on their own perceived implications of a word's etymology that they take those implications as objective fact and claiming that they are the reason why people are against the movement instead of stopping to think that maybe different people get different implications from the term and as such one's own perceived implications of a movements label is not grounds to criticize the whole movement itself.

Well, the movement started so to change a reality, but people associated it first for a change of laws and mindset. This change of mindset was most needed, and is in general very accepted that both men and women need to have equal rights.

Now, while in paper people say equal rights are needed, there are still specifical gender roles that persist in e culture and omissions to this equality seeking in different scenarios and places.

I ll tell you something that is happening that I like a lot. Ever more so, we see more gay and queer characters in series and movies that go beyond the most caricaturisized stereotypes for them. This is more or less what feminism wants to happen but for women.

While there was a lot of uproar about equal rights for what comes to law and e queer and complains about inequality in this (as there very well needed to be and still need to be) this thing with the series seems to be happening quietly.

I have never heard or maybe I have just once heard critisizing of the bad stereotypes of queer in series and tv shows or the non existence of them, but awesomely enough, I am seeing series starting to integrate them.

I think chats about bechdel test and similar ways to make it common knowledge the issue of women portrayed in media in limited ways are very valuable and good, but the main effort should come towards supporting actual female writters for movies and series, or males or whoevers that do make the kind of material you want be seen, be seen.

There is something in advertising that says that you must try to be "for" sometng instead of "against" something.

For example, instead of doing a "war against anorexia" you start a "body health campaign". You understand what I am saying?

Organisations looking out for female rights are needed and so are campaigns to correct culture so to change the views, but more important than saying what behaviour you DONT want, is to encourage the behaviour that you DO want.

I think on the "changing people's minds" camp that would be the most effective way to approach it.


To summarize my point, I think movies like "Brave" are of the best things that can happen to make us as a society to have a more equal approach to women as people of interest.

One of the TED talks talked about this a bit. We need role models.

When I say role models I dont mean that the women need to be there and say "I am a feminist do what i do" or that men should say that, but simply quietly integrate them in the culture and the media. This is one of the best ways to educate and to change cultures, through their consumptions.

I think that on a side the insitutions need to support female writers, scriptists (or however that is called :D) authors, etc, writing about things that do not directly talk about feminism, but ARE "feminism" (equality, etc)

You know what I mean?
 

MoonWater

Warrior Bard
Premium Member
Womens rights movements are needed, feminism needs some important changes in ideology and definetely a new name. But u dont want to talk about that and find it a diversion or aout of topic thing, so I am asking which other things you are interested on talking about on this thread :)

the idea of feminism needing a new name is another debate all together that has nothing to do with whether or not the movements the word stands for are still needed.

besides you're the only one here arguing for a name change. Most everyone else seems to be just fine with the term and have never gotten the implications from it that you have gotten. Plus re-branding would take a lot of time money and effort as well as causing great schisms in the movement as people debate over what the name should be and argue with those who don't want it changed, all of which would distract from the far more important issues that women's rights movements are meant to address.

Let's say for example that we drop feminism and instead just call it humanism or whatever. How do you know there wouldn't be just as many people, if not more, criticizing the movement because of that change? There would certainly be many people, myself included, who would have a problem with such a change because the feel the word "humanism" is far to broad and general in scope to really be able to focus on the issues that most concern women, thus causing those issues to get lost in the mass of other rights movements and slowing down progress in those areas. The term feminism draws attention to the group most hurt by the patriarchal issues that have ruled us for so long. To me and to so many others the word does not imply women are more important, it simply implies hey look at the women, we're people too, don't forget about us, don't dismiss or ignore us just because we have girly parts.
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
Which I admit is a valid notion, but part of the essence of feminism is to deconstruct branding. Btw while I understand your ism argument I think that it is important to note that while peoples ideas define isms no ism can define a person. I am a feminist, I will always be. but rest assured that is nor will ever be the only ism which I am or any feminist is or will ever be.

Ironically, that is impossible.

Branding is the conscious effort to manipulate the associations that will inevitably happen in people's minds.

Opposing it is like opposing "power" . You can oppose "power" itself because you wont have anything to oppose it with but "power"

The affection you have towards the term is exactly the result of what is called a "love brand" or "brand equity" . This means that by one way or another they managed to associate enough positive stuff to the term so you not only adopt it but feel deeply identified by it.

That means that they are doing a good job.

My position is they would do a better one by dropping that name, but anyways, people dont want to talk about it here, so I am dropping the discussion about the bad branding for the name.
 

ignition

Active Member
What exactly do the feminists on this forum want? I understand the broad aims of feminist movements in my country and I certainly don't agree with a lot of what they have to say but I don't precisely know what they want in places like the US. Women can work, vote, stay at home, whatever. What is there left that they want to do?
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
the idea of feminism needing a new name is another debate all together that has nothing to do with whether or not the movements the word stands for are still needed.

besides you're the only one here arguing for a name change. Most everyone else seems to be just fine with the term and have never gotten the implications from it that you have gotten. Plus re-branding would take a lot of time money and effort as well as causing great schisms in the movement as people debate over what the name should be and argue with those who don't want it changed, all of which would distract from the far more important issues that women's rights movements are meant to address.

Let's say for example that we drop feminism and instead just call it humanism or whatever. How do you know there wouldn't be just as many people, if not more, criticizing the movement because of that change? There would certainly be many people, myself included, who would have a problem with such a change because the feel the word "humanism" is far to broad and general in scope to really be able to focus on the issues that most concern women, thus causing those issues to get lost in the mass of other rights movements and slowing down progress in those areas. The term feminism draws attention to the group most hurt by the patriarchal issues that have ruled us for so long. To me and to so many others the word does not imply women are more important, it simply implies hey look at the women, we're people too, don't forget about us, don't dismiss or ignore us just because we have girly parts.

I just programed myself to drop the subject, do we really want to discuss it again here? :D
 

Pagan_Patriot

Active Member
What exactly do the feminists on this forum want? I understand the broad aims of feminist movements in my country and I certainly don't agree with a lot of what they have to say but I don't precisely know what they want in places like the US. Women can work, vote, stay at home, whatever. What is there left that they want to do?

One thing they want is the right to have abortions.
 
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