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Is feminism still needed in the U.S.

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
Indeed, I understand seing feminism itself as against porn as being one of the most common associations about feminist today or is it not? That would be another thing that causes it bad rep IMHO.

Not according to many of the Religious Right. Just like many political factions, it's interesting to see who is in bed with whom (lol) when it regards shared perspectives on social issues like pornography, strip clubs, and prostitution (at least when they're lumped together like this). There are plenty of feminists who see the subjugation of women in the sex industry the same way that the Religious Right see the subjugation of women in the sex industry.

And with both of them, I tend to disagree with the whole of their arguments for either stigmatizing or criminalizing these certain factions in the sex industry.

What do you think should be the things it should be more focused on right now and which approaches you think would be best?

Oh, if only you were the fly on the wall when me and my feminist writer friend would get into long, loooonnnnggggg, debates at the local cafe concerning the issue. She is in favor of banning porn. I'm in stark disagreement. Our debates have been going on for at least a dozen years when we'd get together. It's all in good fun, though, especially when it's over a bottle of Merlot or a good turtle dove mocha. :D

I think as feminism continues to include the rights of GLBTQs, and recognizes that there are different orientations, that like many males who grow up with the notion that they should always be the one who desires, and not to be the one desired, women have been very sensitive to the idea of being desired. There is the sense that to be desired automatically equates to being an object of desire, when it does not necessarily follow. I can desire somebody without objectifying them. And the same can be said of heterosexual males, bisexual females, and lesbian women, who may desire a woman don't necessarily objectify her. Sexual objectification has been a big subject in feminism considerably after the Second Wave when women were more concerned about the identity and worth of women more focused on non-physical traits than physical.

I also think as pornography expands more through digital media, the industry has changed from largely DVD sales to internet streaming, and another change is the bigger involvement of women producers who have been marketing female erotica. These changes, I think, over time will show a shift in mainstream porn to be more erotic than the - what I have called - ejaculatory bias seen in much of mainstream porn. We've already been seeing more of a shift away from always focusing on what the penis is doing or how the penis is reacting to girl-only scenes.

This is where Jenna Jameson has been such an influence in the business. Her works are still on this side of mainstream with the aggressiveness and the occasional money shot. But she has also ensured much of the works to focus entirely on a woman's pleasure.

After 1972's Deep Throat and the following works in the 70's and 80's, porn had been for so long ejaculatory fetishized. Things are changing, though, to include and/or focus entirely on female orgasm or dominance. And in so doing, we are seeing more variety in pornographic works.

Not saying that we're there. Porn has a long way to go given that right now multiple penetration and ejaculatory fetishism is still quite prevalent. But more erotica continually bringing in more women who view porn (there are many more who admit to watching internet porn), I view "feminist" porn as introducing the female gaze and the different biological cycle and processes of orgasm and pleasure.

I think these are starts to reassure the populace that the sex industry need not require objectifying women, girls, or boys. And that the sex industry is not what will doom civilization as long as women have equal rights, bodily security and autonomy, and equal representation.....in the sex industry, too.

Those are my thoughts. Thanks for asking. Sexuality and the arts are rather like life missions for me. :)
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Well then explain to me why our society has degenerated so much.

It hasn't.

It looks like it has because of the internet. Suddenly all kinds of different social groups can interact with each other, and it turns out there was never a homogenous whole to American culture to begin with.
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
1.) No, I think people do things in real life are much more effective, then people simply stating stuff on the internet all the time. This method has proven extremely effective for feminism.

2.) Propaganda is bad and shouldn't be used to persuade people to issues which need to be addressed rationally.

3.) Nope, the name doesn't need to be changed. Whether you think it should be the case or not is rather irrelevant, since feminism, in many ways, has views on society.

4.) Who said feminism was an unpopular term?

According to the survey, just 20 percent of Americans -- including 23 percent of women and 16 percent of men -- consider themselves feminists. Another 8 percent consider themselves anti-feminists, while 63 percent said they are neither.

Poll: Few Identify As Feminists, But Most Believe In Equality Of Sexes

A newly released voter poll finds that feminists, not just women in general, were key to the 2012 election results. Fully 55 percent of women voters self-identified as feminists–an increase of 9 percent since the last presidential election in 2008. And if those polled were given a follow-up question that included a definition of feminism, the percentage of those declaring themselves feminists or strong feminists rose to a total of 68 percent!

The Feminist Factor: More than Half of 2012 Women Voters Identify As Feminists


5.) Feminism isn't a brand name. It's an umbrella term for decades upon decades of philosophical work.

Yu have several misconceptions.

First of all, it is a brand.

But in any case, I wont debate on this issues as the OP starter said she feels it diverts from the main issue of the thread.

But:

Social marketing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You have several misconceptions about e things you are taking about. I studied marketing and advertising and I know how I am using the terms I am using.

If you wish, I could sned you by pm some correction, although I think if you are sipufficiently inclined, that link should do mostly fine.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member

With that insistence, I assume you have something to show me? Such as what, exactly, it is that's being degenerated? Cold War American culture? Good riddance, I say, to that festering, paranoid, intolerant, racist, sexist, pathetic excuse for a "free" nation. Besides, that culture didn't exist until the Cold War.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Equal political representation, what does that even mean? You want the same number of male and female senators or what? That's never going to happen unless there's an enforced quota, which would ironically be discriminatory.

Equal economic representation? I have no idea what you mean here again.

Equal pay I understand, but there are issues that obviously affect a woman's pay packet such as work flexibility and pregnancy, which are just two obstacles to equal pay.

I don't really think combating rape and violence should be considered at all, no amount of campaigning is going to put a complete end to these things. The law is working as well as possible although possibly not in the United States I suppose.

Equal rights for all those letters is going to be one hell of a task. Equal rights is not really what some of them want, they want special rights. Like that little boy with a penis who was allowed to enter girls toilets because he felt like he was a girl. That's a special right, that's not an equal right.

Girls don't get shot in Islamic countries for going to school. That only happens in war-torn countries like Pakistan and Afghanistan. Perhaps you should also be campaigning against US drones killing girls, because I can assure you, more girls die due to US military attacks than for going to school in Islamic countries.

Equal political representation means that gender should not be considered an obstacle for women who want to enter politics. Not by them, not by voters, not by the establishment, not by anyone.

Equal economic representation means that gender should not be an obstacle to promotion, equal income for equal work, company leadership, entrepreneurial efforts, etc.

If those objectives had already been achieved, you would see a roughly equal number of women and men in positions of power as a consequence right now. Since there is not a roughly equal number of men and women in positions of economic and political power, we still have work to do.

Equal pay for equal work is a complete no brainer. I'm not going to bother arguing about it. I've heard all the rationalizations for the wage gap before, and suffice it to say I think they're all silly.

The law is not working. Rape victims are still subjected to revictimization by society, by the police, and by the court. Their behavior, dress, sexual history etc. is still scrutinized, and most rape cases don't even go to trial. Those that do rarely result in a conviction, with many people convinced that it's just a matter of "he said, she said", and that the risk of convicting an innocent man of rape is a much more serious concern than the risk of letting an actual rapist walk free on the streets.

Nobody wants any special rights. Another one I'm not going to bother argue with you. Gender identity is complex and nuanced. Suffice it to say we want to eliminate gender bias and gender norms so that if a little boy feels like he's a girl it's just not that big of a deal, and he's not shamed, persecuted or singled out for his feelings.

I think Pakistan would be surprised to hear themselves described as a "war torn" country. If you don't think women girls in Islamic countries - even the peaceful ones - are having a really hard time, you are just not paying any attention. At all. Plus, I am anti-war. Feminism in general is anti-war, since the primary casualties of war are very often women and children. Rape is endemic in every war. So I agree that the war and drone attacks are appalling and destructive. I agree in part because of my feminist philosophical foundation. I did campaign against the war in Iraq, and my country did not go. I campaigned against the war in Afghanistan, and my country went. You win some, you lose some.
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
Not according to many of the Religious Right. Just like many political factions, it's interesting to see who is in bed with whom (lol) when it regards shared perspectives on social issues like pornography, strip clubs, and prostitution (at least when they're lumped together like this). There are plenty of feminists who see the subjugation of women in the sex industry the same way that the Religious Right see the subjugation of women in the sex industry.

And with both of them, I tend to disagree with the whole of their arguments for either stigmatizing or criminalizing these certain factions in the sex industry.



Oh, if only you were the fly on the wall when me and my feminist writer friend would get into long, loooonnnnggggg, debates at the local cafe concerning the issue. She is in favor of banning porn. I'm in stark disagreement. Our debates have been going on for at least a dozen years when we'd get together. It's all in good fun, though, especially when it's over a bottle of Merlot or a good turtle dove mocha. :D

I think as feminism continues to include the rights of GLBTQs, and recognizes that there are different orientations, that like many males who grow up with the notion that they should always be the one who desires, and not to be the one desired, women have been very sensitive to the idea of being desired. There is the sense that to be desired automatically equates to being an object of desire, when it does not necessarily follow. I can desire somebody without objectifying them. And the same can be said of heterosexual males, bisexual females, and lesbian women, who may desire a woman don't necessarily objectify her. Sexual objectification has been a big subject in feminism considerably after the Second Wave when women were more concerned about the identity and worth of women more focused on non-physical traits than physical.

I also think as pornography expands more through digital media, the industry has changed from largely DVD sales to internet streaming, and another change is the bigger involvement of women producers who have been marketing female erotica. These changes, I think, over time will show a shift in mainstream porn to be more erotic than the - what I have called - ejaculatory bias seen in much of mainstream porn. We've already been seeing more of a shift away from always focusing on what the penis is doing or how the penis is reacting to girl-only scenes.

This is where Jenna Jameson has been such an influence in the business. Her works are still on this side of mainstream with the aggressiveness and the occasional money shot. But she has also ensured much of the works to focus entirely on a woman's pleasure.

After 1972's Deep Throat and the following works in the 70's and 80's, porn had been for so long ejaculatory fetishized. Things are changing, though, to include and/or focus entirely on female orgasm or dominance. And in so doing, we are seeing more variety in pornographic works.

Not saying that we're there. Porn has a long way to go given that right now multiple penetration and ejaculatory fetishism is still quite prevalent. But more erotica continually bringing in more women who view porn (there are many more who admit to watching internet porn), I view "feminist" porn as introducing the female gaze and the different biological cycle and processes of orgasm and pleasure.

I think these are starts to reassure the populace that the sex industry need not require objectifying women, girls, or boys. And that the sex industry is not what will doom civilization as long as women have equal rights, bodily security and autonomy, and equal representation.....in the sex industry, too.

Those are my thoughts. Thanks for asking. Sexuality and the arts are rather like life missions for me. :)

Thanks for sharing ;)

So, you are most interested in the way feminism could affect porn as currently displayed? That is certainly a different perspective :D

I think what would do great would be more support to scripts and stuff for the media. Basically to help found diversity inclusive series and movies and fiction books and video games.

I think Glee its an outstanding advance on the fields of conscientisation of social issues for example.

I havent been able to see the series for a while :( Kurt has always been my favourite char.

Movies like Brave too I think are pretty good for the cause. I think it is this kind of things, changes in porn as you say for example, that will cause the most impact. Focusing attention on producing what is rig instead of using all the attention on denouncing what is wrong. This is necesary in law and it is helpful in chats like those of TED, but more popular things most be done for your every day person, as this is the person you really want to reach.

Not because the elite or most thoughtful indiciduals arent important, but because while not everyone will take direct interest in this issues, everyone can be influenced and is being influenced anyways.
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
No, it's not.

noun

1a type of product manufactured by a particular company under a particular name:a new brand of detergent

brand: definition of brand in Oxford dictionary - American English (US)

Feel free to point to any of the other misconceptions you claim I have in my last post.

Its jargon of marketing and advertising.

But it does not go against the definition you provided.

For example it says that it is corresponding to a product manufactured by a company.

Product includes a thing or person that is the result of an action or process. Naturally, feminism is a non physical thing but it is a thing nonetheless (check definition of thing)

Manufactured includes as definition as "made" and as an example it says a story can be manufactured (in this case it is an ideology that is being manufactured)

A company is a group of people, and naturally, a group of people generate this idea.

So yes, it is comprehended under the term of brand.

Now I cna hear you sang that isuch a wide definition, everything is a brand, and in a way, yes at is true. As an advertizer, any idea I will advertized will be treated as a brand. This works because it is actually a brand. It is something you are selling but in a completely different way.

Again, if you are interested be sure to check the link. If you have any other question you may make a new thread or I would be happy to answer you by pm :)
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
https://www.voices4children.com/the-starfish-story
With regards to fighting an "unwinnable" fight: the starfish story.

I seem to have quoted myself, instead of ignition telling me feminism won't make a difference to a rapist.

@ignition

No, maybe the slogans won't deter the rape, but if there were more active feminists someone would step in. if no one stepped in though, maybe a feminist would be there to comfort the victim, and maybe if no one was there to comfort the victim, a feminist would hear the story and advocate for future women's safety so the rape was less likely to occur, whether this means more street lights, or security guards, tougher laws on rapists etc. the point of the story is you say "feminists, you are not going to make a difference," while I look you in the eyes and say "we have."
 
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Me Myself

Back to my username
Its not about winning the fight for everyone wver (though that would be awesome) but about each individual fight won with each individual person being of infinite significance :)
 

ignition

Active Member
If those objectives had already been achieved, you would see a roughly equal number of women and men in positions of power as a consequence right now. Since there is not a roughly equal number of men and women in positions of economic and political power, we still have work to do.

Equal pay for equal work is a complete no brainer. I'm not going to bother arguing about it. I've heard all the rationalizations for the wage gap before, and suffice it to say I think they're all silly.

Nobody wants any special rights. Another one I'm not going to bother argue with you. Gender identity is complex and nuanced. Suffice it to say we want to eliminate gender bias and gender norms so that if a little boy feels like he's a girl it's just not that big of a deal, and he's not shamed, persecuted or singled out for his feelings.

I think Pakistan would be surprised to hear themselves described as a "war torn" country. If you don't think women girls in Islamic countries - even the peaceful ones - are having a really hard time, you are just not paying any attention. At all. Plus, I am anti-war. Feminism in general is anti-war, since the primary casualties of war are very often women and children. Rape is endemic in every war. So I agree that the war and drone attacks are appalling and destructive. I agree in part because of my feminist philosophical foundation. I did campaign against the war in Iraq, and my country did not go. I campaigned against the war in Afghanistan, and my country went. You win some, you lose some.
Ok, thanks for responding. A few thoughts....

There being an equal number of men and women in leadership position politically and economically would be the result of successful campaigning for women's right is a unfortunately a complete and utter myth. There is absolutely no study to back this up at all, in fact, it is a proven fact that more men vie for leadership positions than women. Even if there were the exact same number of men and woman applying for leadership positions, why should it be 50-50? The world is not symmetric, to suggest that 50% of business need to be lead by women or 50% of the Senate must be women is just laughable. The only policies that would lead to that result would be draconian laws curbing freedom to vote for whomever you want and freedom to hire who you want etc. There would need to be complete economic and political central planning. You cannot have both freedom and also insist on 50% of leadership positions held by woman at the same time, you're trying to have your cake and eat it too.

Equal pay for equal work I agree. But women do not do equal work as men some or sometimes all of the time. I don't really want to talk about boring stuff such as work flexibility or maternity, let's talk about more fun things like sports and tennis. Women do NOT do the same work as men in tennis. Men play much longer than women on court and yet feminists still insist on equal prize money. That's not an equal right, that's a SPECIAL right, because they're not doing the SAME work.

Ok, do you think boys should be allowed to enter girls toilets? You cannot have one law for one person and a different law for another. If one person with a penis enters girls toilets, ALL persons with penis should be allowed in, that my friend, is EQUAL rights.

Pakistan are of course a war-torn country, they get droned to shreds, as well as the Taliban having bases there blowing people up left right and centre in its savage war against the Pakistani govt. Pakistan is a nation at war yes.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
That's BS. It doesn't really apply here. The type of guys who beat up woman will never be put off by a few slogans and a few posters here and there. Do you really think potential rapists will be deterred by anything a feminist movements does? That's just a lack of understanding psychologically.

What difference does it make what rapists and abusive spouses think of feminist philosophy? Our objective isn't to talk abusers into not whaling on their partners (although that would be absolutely lovely) - it is to persuade victims of abuse and sexual violence to speak out, leave their abusers, do their best to put violent offenders in prison, etc. And to persuade lawmakers, law enforcement and courts to take the issue of domestic violence and sexual violence seriously and do something about it.

(Note the gender neutral terms I carefully used throughout that comment - since men are sometimes raped and abused too).
 

dust1n

Zindīq
Its jargon of marketing and advertising.

You mean, like "feminism" is in philosophical theory?

But it does not go against the definition you provided. For example it says that it is corresponding to a product manufactured by a company.

Product includes a thing or person that is the result of an action or process. Naturally, feminism is a non physical thing but it is a thing nonetheless (check definition of thing)
Definition of product
noun


  • 1an article or substance that is manufactured or refined for sale:marketing products and services dairy products
  • a substance produced during a natural, chemical, or manufacturing process:waste products
  • a thing or person that is the result of an action or process:his daughter, the product of his first marriage
  • a person whose character and identity have been formed by a particular period or situation:an aging academic who is a product of the 1960s
  • commercially manufactured articles, especially recordings, viewed collectively:too much product of too little quality
Manufactured includes as definition as "made" and as an example it says a story can be manufactured (in this case it is an ideology that is being manufactured)
Definition of manufacture
noun


  • the making of articles on a large scale using machinery:the manufacture of armored vehicles
verb

[with object] 1make (something) on a large scale using machinery:

A company is a group of people, and naturally, a group of people generate this idea.
But, they don't manufacture it.

So yes, it is comprehended under the term of brand.
Damn you Oxford English Dictionary for giving me so many misconceptions!

Now I cna hear you sang that isuch a wide definition, everything is a brand, and in a way, yes at is true. As an advertizer, any idea I will advertized will be treated as a brand. This works because it is actually a brand. It is something you are selling but in a completely different way.

Again, if you are interested be sure to check the link. If you have any other question you may make a new thread or I would be happy to answer you by pm :)
Here, you seem to think that the 'brand' is synonymous with whatever object is being 'branded.' Tissues are not a brand. But Kleenex are a 'brand' of tissues. "Women's movements" are not "manufactured" and they are not "products."
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
I didn't buy feminism, nor have I bought anything regarding feminism. In fact, no money whatsoever has left my wallet regarding feminism, nor have I ever, EVER, been encouraged to do so.

Therefore, feminism is not a product.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Its jargon of marketing and advertising.

But it does not go against the definition you provided.

For example it says that it is corresponding to a product manufactured by a company.

Product includes a thing or person that is the result of an action or process. Naturally, feminism is a non physical thing but it is a thing nonetheless (check definition of thing)

Manufactured includes as definition as "made" and as an example it says a story can be manufactured (in this case it is an ideology that is being manufactured)

A company is a group of people, and naturally, a group of people generate this idea.

So yes, it is comprehended under the term of brand.

Now I cna hear you sang that isuch a wide definition, everything is a brand, and in a way, yes at is true. As an advertizer, any idea I will advertized will be treated as a brand. This works because it is actually a brand. It is something you are selling but in a completely different way.

Again, if you are interested be sure to check the link. If you have any other question you may make a new thread or I would be happy to answer you by pm :)

We're not selling stuff. We're doing stuff.
 

ignition

Active Member
What difference does it make what rapists and abusive spouses think of feminist philosophy? Our objective isn't to talk abusers into not whaling on their partners (although that would be absolutely lovely) - it is to persuade victims of abuse and sexual violence to speak out, leave their abusers, do their best to put violent offenders in prison, etc. And to persuade lawmakers, law enforcement and courts to take the issue of domestic violence and sexual violence seriously and do something about it.

(Note the gender neutral terms I carefully used throughout that comment - since men are sometimes raped and abused too).
Fair enough, that is a noble goal I agree.
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
You mean, like "feminism" is in philosophical theory?



Definition of product
noun


  • 1an article or substance that is manufactured or refined for sale:marketing products and services dairy products
  • a substance produced during a natural, chemical, or manufacturing process:waste products
  • a thing or person that is the result of an action or process:his daughter, the product of his first marriage
  • a person whose character and identity have been formed by a particular period or situation:an aging academic who is a product of the 1960s
  • commercially manufactured articles, especially recordings, viewed collectively:too much product of too little quality
Definition of manufacture
noun


  • the making of articles on a large scale using machinery:the manufacture of armored vehicles
verb

[with object] 1make (something) on a large scale using machinery:

But, they don't manufacture it.

Damn you Oxford English Dictionary for giving me so many misconceptions!

Here, you seem to think that the 'brand' is synonymous with whatever object is being 'branded.' Tissues are not a brand. But Kleenex are a 'brand' of tissues. "Women's movements" are not "manufactured" and they are not "products."

Again, I would be happy to adress your misconceptions in a relevant thread made by you or by pm messages :)

I am very willing to educate you on that that I haveeen educated on, but this is not the medium for that.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Its jargon of marketing and advertising.

But it does not go against the definition you provided.

For example it says that it is corresponding to a product manufactured by a company.

Product includes a thing or person that is the result of an action or process. Naturally, feminism is a non physical thing but it is a thing nonetheless (check definition of thing)

Manufactured includes as definition as "made" and as an example it says a story can be manufactured (in this case it is an ideology that is being manufactured)

A company is a group of people, and naturally, a group of people generate this idea.

So yes, it is comprehended under the term of brand.

Now I cna hear you sang that isuch a wide definition, everything is a brand, and in a way, yes at is true. As an advertizer, any idea I will advertized will be treated as a brand. This works because it is actually a brand. It is something you are selling but in a completely different way.

Again, if you are interested be sure to check the link. If you have any other question you may make a new thread or I would be happy to answer you by pm :)

Well, if we are going to continue to discuss branding (and I know that you did not bring it up this time). deconstructing branding is being aware that we are susceptible to this process, so we must focus on the product and not the brand or make sure that the we are choosing a brand based on product and not name or image alone. as an advertiser would you reach your children to focus on who has a better brand or who has a better product? The point is that while branding does have a real effect, feminism is in part about deconstructing brands. This is not the same as demolishing brands, rather it is about understanding our own socialization and making better choices based on content.
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
We're not selling stuff. We're doing stuff.

Make a thread if you wish, you are selling :)


2persuade someone of the merits of:
he sold the idea of making a film about Tchaikovsky
he could get work but he just won’t sell himself

You are selling the value of equality to the masses.
 
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