Is feminism still needed in the U.S.

[dust1n]

Yes, we both did. Have a good day sir

Nope, we didn't. Take it easy.

 

[Me Myself]

Nope, we didn't.

And there is your misconception

 

[dust1n]

And there is your misconception

Is there a reason you are still responding to me and not to my original post? If addressing my point is derailing the topic, this exchange is certainly far more derailing the topic then addressing my post.

 

[Alceste]

Who gives a **** about Scandinavia? Am I a Scandinavian? I don't care what they do, they can do whatever the hell they want. All I'm asking is, why do you want to force the issue in the US or other countries when they clearly do not have 50-50 representation? My local member of parliament is case in point. We had a man in the same seat for something like 30-40 years. What right does ANYONE have to force a woman in that seat, or look down on us for voting in a man?

I'm addressing your claim that equal representation can not ever be attained without central planning. This claim is necessarily false, because it HAS been attained without central planning in various parts of the world, and is very close in others. Would you agree?

I don't live in the US, so what do I care that you are an American?

 

[Me Myself]

Is there a reason you are still responding to me and not to my original post? If addressing my point is derailing the topic, this exchange is certainly far more derailing the topic then addressing my post.

I assume you will eventually understand this is not the place and cease, while if I tried to explain you you will be feed way more by it than by the simply exchange of my mommy is better than yours.

You are smart and in general you seem reasonably mature. I provided you a way to further the discussion and if you truly believe the subject is worthy you will take it, but if derailing the thread further is more important to you, then... Well I honestly wont bet on it.

I am sure you'll get it.

 

[Curious George]

When taking all the thought out factors in consideration I understand there is a gap of around 7% , 2% of which can be of simple "not perfect fifty fifty ever" and five percentage that could be because of gender discrimination or by some other unknown factor.

If you have a source to a study that says that there is ABSOLUTELY NONE unexplained gap between the, trust me I would love to read it!

Pass it up

Don't have the study off hand but as I said in an earlier post that at least one study found that men were several times more likely to negotiate for pay when accepting a position. but this makes me ask why. Why are men more likely to negotiate. there is no internal biology that suggests men have an innate disposition toward negotiation that women lack. So what are we teaching girls, or not teaching boys? Though I do not feel that this accounts for the gap in pay completely, it could certainly be a.factor. employment discrimination hardly ends at the wage gap.

 

[ignition]

As far as Islamic countries are concerned, Wahhabism is prevalent throughout the Arab world, and presents different issues in different countries. Afghanistan and Pakistan have issues with murdering or disfiguring schoolgirls. Iran would rather let them burn to death than escape a fire without their hair covered. Saudi Arabia only recently started to consider whether or not women should be allowed to drive. Egypt has an endemic sexual assault issue. African Islamic nations hack off the clitorises of their female children. Honour killings are prevalent throughout these cultures, and rape victims often can not report their assaults because they may be murdered by the state for doing so.

Wahhabism is a term that means anything the user intends it to mean. Nobody goes around saying "I'm a wahhabi", it's a meaningless term used to denote something. In fact, according to a US official, a 'Wahhabi' is any Muslim that takes a literal interpretation of the Qur'an. Now let's see who that definition applies to....pretty much all Muslims.

Yes; I know there is a long way to go in terms of women's rights in most Muslim countries, but that does NOT give you the right to label all Muslim countries as places where girls are shot for going to school. Just as an aside, I have been to many Muslim countries, not just in Africa but also the Middle East, and the picture that you are drawing is just not there. I'm not saying these things don't exist, what I'm saying is that aside from the countries at war, these matters are extremely rare, at least in my experience. Heck, I have relatives that live in the Middle East, they haven't heard of anyone that was killed by honour killing, had genital mutilation etc. etc. They only read these things online and in the papers just like us.

 

[Me Myself]

Don't have the study off hand but as I said in an earlier post that at least one study found that men were several times more likely to negotiate for pay when accepting a position. but this makes me ask why. Why are men more likely to negotiate. there is no internal biology that suggests men have an innate disposition toward negotiation that women lack. So what are we teaching girls, or not teaching boys? Though I do not feel that this accounts for the gap in pay completely, it could certainly be a.factor. employment discrimination hardly ends at the wage gap.

I will tell you the factors that I know that explained most of the gap:

As you say, men tend to negotiate more

Men take higher paying carreers because more men are willing to sacrifice a more fulfilling job or a job they would really desire to do than women.

More men try their own business, with the privileges of such when you manage the issue correctly.

When the careers are the same, men take higher paying specializations (more neurosurgeons are male in percentage of male doctors than neurosurgeons being female in percentage of female doctors)

Men tend to stick longer to the same job or/and career, so as they have been in the business for more time and have more experience, they are getting paid more

Men tend to do more hours than women in the same jobs.

Some discrimination may come from after our conections in which men are more likely to spend time after hours with their bosses so they get to know each other. Ironically, I can see male bosses shng away from this with women being afraid of being sued for having tried to seduce them outside and then given the job to someone else. I am not saying this would even be popular, but it is something that they would risk far more inviting a woman to a golf club than inviting a man.

I know there are others but I dont remember them. As I said, they seem to explain almost all the gap. Of course, i ve never seen feminist sources tell you this things.

 

[ignition]

I'm addressing your claim that equal representation can not ever be attained without central planning. This claim is necessarily false, because it HAS been attained without central planning in various parts of the world, and is very close in others. Would you agree?

I don't live in the US, so what do I care that you are an American?

I should have been clearer; what I meant was that it can never be attained in my country; the UK. Or even the US for that matter. The idea that all countries should follow the Scandinavians is social planning is it not? To say that the Scandinavians are a role model for us is something I find deeply offensive, because what you are suggesting is that I should vote for a woman just so she can make up the numbers and for our parliament to look like a Scandinavian parliament. Do you not see anything wrong with that? People should vote for whoever they want, whether it's 50-50 or 70-30. If it's something like 90-10 then yeah obviously there's blatant sexism but other than that, it shouldn't be a big deal what gender is in what seat in parliament.

 

[dust1n]

I assume you will eventually understand this is not the place and cease, while if I tried to explain you you will be feed way more by it than by the simply exchange of my mommy is better than yours.

You are smart and in general you seem reasonably mature. I provided you a way to further the discussion and if you truly believe the subject is worthy you will take it, but if derailing the thread further is more important to you, then... Well I honestly wont bet on it.

I am sure you'll get it.

No, I totally get it... I responded to you, you didn't respond back, you offered an alternative via PM or me making a new thread, I declined said offer. You continued speaking of my misconceptions. I continued with my assertion that I have no misconceptions about what branding is. As long as you insist I have a misconception about it, I will respond with "I don't have a misconception about it" or "you did not use the OED definitions correctly."

My last point is still there, not responded to. I'm not going to make a thread or send a PM to say what I've already said, and is already there. If you want to make a thread asserting your claim that Feminism is a brand, then by all means, or if you prefer to address my post via PM, feel free.

 

[Alceste]

Wahhabism is a term that means anything the user intends it to mean. Nobody goes around saying "I'm a wahhabi", it's a meaningless term used to denote something. In fact, according to a US official, a 'Wahhabi' is any Muslim that takes a literal interpretation of the Qur'an. Now let's see who that definition applies to....pretty much all Muslims.

Yes; I know there is a long way to go in terms of women's rights in most Muslim countries, but that does NOT give you the right to label all Muslim countries as places where girls are shot for going to school. Just as an aside, I have been to many Muslim countries, not just in Africa but also the Middle East, and the picture that you are drawing is just not there. I'm not saying these things don't exist, what I'm saying is that aside from the countries at war, these matters are extremely rare, at least in my experience. Heck, I have relatives that live in the Middle East, they haven't heard of anyone that was killed by honour killing, had genital mutilation etc. etc. They only read these things online and in the papers just like us.

Syria: Detention and Abuse of Female Activists | Human Rights Watch
Women face challenges as Libya moves toward a new constitution | Human Rights Watch
Libya: Seize Chance to Protect Women
Saudi Arabia to Women:
The Trials of Child Marriage | Human Rights Watch
On Olympic Anniversary, End Hurdles for Saudi Women | Human Rights Watch
Saudi Arabia: Let All Girls Play Sports | Human Rights Watch
Saudi Arabia: Huge Obstacles for First Woman Lawyer | Human Rights Watch
http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/06/24/violence-against-women-epidemic

 

[Alceste]

I should have been clearer; what I meant was that it can never be attained in my country; the UK. Or even the US for that matter. The idea that all countries should follow the Scandinavians is social planning is it not? To say that the Scandinavians are a role model for us is something I find deeply offensive, because what you are suggesting is that I should vote for a woman just so she can make up the numbers and for our parliament to look like a Scandinavian parliament. Do you not see anything wrong with that? People should vote for whoever they want, whether it's 50-50 or 70-30. If it's something like 90-10 then yeah obviously there's blatant sexism but other than that, it shouldn't be a big deal what gender is in what seat in parliament.

Straw men, red herrings and falsehoods, OH MY!

Let's try this again.

You claimed that it is IMPOSSIBLE for women to attain equal political representation without central planning that forces people to vote for women. Your claim, not mine.

I demonstrated that it is not only possible, but actually happening in various parts of the world.

You can either retract your absurd claim or stand by it, but you can't pretend your claim came from me. That's just plain dishonest.

 

[Me Myself]

No, I totally get it... I responded to you, you didn't respond back, you offered an alternative via PM or me making a new thread, I declined said offer. You continued speaking of my misconceptions. I continued with my assertion that I have no misconceptions about what branding is. As long as you insist I have a misconception about it, I will respond with "I don't have a misconception about it" or "you did not use the OED definitions correctly."

My last point is still there, not responded to. I'm not going to make a thread or send a PM to say what I've already said, and is already there. If you want to make a thread asserting your claim that Feminism is a brand, then by all means, or if you prefer to address my post via PM, feel free.

Its cool then, neither of us feel as strongly about correcting the other as to continue the conversation on an appropriate medium.

Agreeing on that is fine by me.

 

[ignition]

Syria: Detention and Abuse of Female Activists | Human Rights Watch
Women face challenges as Libya moves toward a new constitution | Human Rights Watch
Libya: Seize Chance to Protect Women
Saudi Arabia to Women:
The Trials of Child Marriage | Human Rights Watch
On Olympic Anniversary, End Hurdles for Saudi Women | Human Rights Watch
Saudi Arabia: Let All Girls Play Sports | Human Rights Watch
Saudi Arabia: Huge Obstacles for First Woman Lawyer | Human Rights Watch
The Violence against Women Epidemic | Human Rights Watch

Yes, what are you trying to prove exactly? You're not telling me anything I don't know so far. Not only that, but a lot of links seem to be about Saudi Arabia, a country I know very well because I've been there and have some relatives there.

 

[Curious George]

I will tell you the factors that I know that explained most of the gap:

As you say, men tend to negotiate more

Men take higher paying carreers because more men are willing to sacrifice a more fulfilling job or a job they would really desire to do than women.

More men try their own business, with the privileges of such when you manage the issue correctly.

When the careers are the same, men take higher paying specializations (more neurosurgeons are male in percentage of male doctors than neurosurgeons being female in percentage of female doctors)

Men tend to stick longer to the same job or/and career, so as they have been in the business for more time and have more experience, they are getting paid more

Men tend to do more hours than women in the same jobs.

Some discrimination may come from after our conections in which men are more likely to spend time after hours with their bosses so they get to know each other. Ironically, I can see male bosses shng away from this with women being afraid of being sued for having tried to seduce them outside and then given the job to someone else. I am not saying this would even be popular, but it is something that they would risk far more inviting a woman to a golf club than inviting a man.

I know there are others but I dont remember them. As I said, they seem to explain almost all the gap. Of course, i ve never seen feminist sources tell you this things.

men don't negotiate more, that is the point. Only when accepting a job.

Specialized fields and science related fields have a huge lack of women despite showing higher aptitude for sciences and math up until middle school. Girls who do show high aptitude often shy away from sciences for more traditional accepted feminine fields of study.

The sexual harassment paranoia is often from exaggerated stories, mens lack of awareness as to what constitutes sexual harassment and rampant sexual harassment in certain work environments.

Have a response to the rest, but I have to go pick up friends kids. Take care, thanks for the discussion- everyone.

 

[dust1n]

I'm pretty much sold on the Feminist DIR.

 

[Alceste]

Yes, what are you trying to prove exactly? You're not telling me anything I don't know so far. Not only that, but a lot of links seem to be about Saudi Arabia, a country I know very well because I've been there and have some relatives there.

So you already know that feminists still have some major work to do in Islamic countries? Then we agree! Woohoo!

 

[Me Myself]

Straw men, red herrings and falsehoods, OH MY!

Let's try this again.

You claimed that it is IMPOSSIBLE for women to attain equal political representation without central planning that forces people to vote for women. Your claim, not mine.

I demonstrated that it is not only possible, but actually happening in various parts of the world.

You can either retract your absurd claim or stand by it, but you can't pretend your claim came from me. That's just plain dishonest.

I may be wrong but I assume he says a literal fifty fifty is highly improbable unless putting there a legal discrimination of sexes for which it is necessary to have a exact amount of people of some sex.

 

[Alceste]

I'm pretty much sold on the Feminist DIR.

Totally. I can't wait.

First order of business - I want Curious George to repost some of those videos. Maybe one at a time, to give them the focused, intelligent attention and discussion they each deserve.

 

[Me Myself]

I'm pretty much sold on the Feminist DIR.

So am I