Is God a real *********?

[Quagmire]

We don't have enough threads about the problem of suffering, we have to suffer one more?

It's an aesthetic problem, not a logical one.

I completely agree.

In the big picture, I don't consider human beings qualified to judge good and evil. What I think we're really doing when we declare something evil is saying we consider it ugly.

 

[Willamena]

I completely agree.

In the big picture, I don't consider human beings qualified to judge good and evil. What I think we're really doing when we declare something evil is saying we consider it ugly.

Right. Suffering isn't pretty. Deal with it.

 

[lunakilo]

Right. Suffering isn't pretty. Deal with it.

Ok, ok. I will, but I still don't like it

 

[no-body]

The problem of evil is mostly a problem for the Abrahamic God. Those in the Abrahamic faiths solve it by simply ignoring it or saying it is wrong without any evidence or they give evidence that makes no sense and say they have solved it.

They like to compare God to a parent but it makes more sense to compare God to a man who has built a robot. If the robot goes out of control and becomes evil the creator must own up and take responsibility for it's action due to faulty programming.

 

[Karl R]

gangs of armed men come by and take their young teen children in to be soldiers, kill off their fathers and rape their mothers before shooting them in the head.

A God could simply will such a thing not to happen.

Would you have god kill all the gangs of bad men? Should god turn them into mindless zombies that only do what god wants?

Somewhere there is a jihadist that believes that god should wipe all western civilization off the face of the earth. Would you want god listening to his opinion? That same jihadist would like the entire world to be subject to Sharia law. Is that the kind of world you would want to live in?

The world does not become a perfect place just because it starts conforming to your version of perfection, just like it does not become a perfect place (and by our standards, becomes a less perfect place) if it starts conforming to the jihadists' version of perfection.

The rapes and murders aren't happening because god wills it. They're happening because god has given us freedom of choice ... and we choose to do these things to others, or we choose to stand by and do nothing as others do these things.

there are many parents in certain parts of the world seeing their families split apart, incapable of finding basic necessities to see that their children can survive

"The world has enough for everybody's need, but not enough for one man's greed."
- Mahatma Gandhi

Let's say your entire family kept only the income which was absolutely necessary to meet the necessities (no computer, no TV, only the cheapest available transportation, a small house, no vacations) and gave the rest of the money to charity. How many families could have their necessities met with that extra money?

You don't believe god exists. If you feel that the end of suffering in the world is a worthwhile goal, why aren't you doing everything in your power to make it happen? (Even if you're still a child, you could tell your parents to give money to charity instead of buying you birthday and christmas presents.)

If you're a kind a compassionate person, why aren't you doing (on a small scale) everything you think god should be doing worldwide?

Can we stand in the refugee camps of East Africa and think "there is nothing wrong here"?

The ethnic strife that is tearing apart Africa has its roots in the age-old hatreds between the tribes. But it was deliberately exacerbated by the European powers who colonized those regions. They drew boundaries to ensure that antagonistic tribes would share the same territory, then they supported the weaker tribe as long as the weaker tribe accepted the Europeans being on the top.

The Europeans got to rake in the wealth with minimal effort. The tribe chosen by the Europeans got to freely oppress their more numerous rivals. And the majority developed a burning hatred for their oppressors.

God didn't create the problem. People did.

Even if god stopped everyone from doing these atrocious things, it would not solve the underlying problem. Look at Eastern Europe. For decades the Soviets kept the ethnic groups from killing each other. As soon as the Soviets left, the ethnic groups started making up for lost time.

a debilitating horrible disease

My grandmother died of lung cancer, after living for decades with a husband and son who were heavy smokers.

A friend of mine is HIV+. Even though he knew the risks, he still had unprotected sex with dozens of men.

A neighbor is suffering from osteoporosis. He spends all day hunched over his computer keyboard, rather than doing the physical therapy which would alleviate his pain and forestall further deterioration.

His wife is suffering from alzheimers, but he's too enmeshed in denial to get her the proper treatement and social stimulation to slow the progress of the disease.

A friend of mine has Hepatitis C. She wants to have her own biological child, and she's willing to risk passing the disease on to her child in order to achieve that goal.

We don't eat healthy foods; we're sleep deprived; we go to work/school even when we know we have contagious diseases.

God doesn't need to give us debilitating diseases. We do it all on our own.

The beneficient theistic God is a rubbish concept and the problem of evil is a good example of why this is the case.

If you think god is (or ought to be) micromanaging the universe (and our lives), then reality is unlikely to meet that particular expectation.

Not only that but there are far better explanations for why suffering exists which are rooted in our understanding of the natural world based on science.

Not just science. Human nature. Most of us would rather allow 100 strangers suffer and die on the other side of the world rather than personally inconvenience ourselves.

What does "growth" mean in this context?

It can mean many things.

Thirty years ago my grandparents were murdered. From that incident, I learned that forgiveness is not something we do to benefit those who have wronged us. It's something we do so we don't end up chained in the past by hatred and anger.

Twenty years ago I was broke, unemployed and starving. That experience has made me more compassionate towards people who have ended up in similar (or worse) situations ... and particularly more understanding of the desperate choices they may be forced to make.

Before I was born, a woman was attacked, repeatedly stabbed, raped and left to die. Numerous bystanders were aware of the attack, but none came to her assistance. This story is taught in many psychology classes. Ten years ago I heard a woman screaming in a nearby apartment. I went running outside (in my underwear) to see whether she was in distress. When I couldn't locate the source of the disturbance, I called the police.

A God which sits back and lets people suffer in order for them to 'grow' is indistinguishable from a God that doesn't exist.

My god told me to love others as I love myself; to treat others in the way I would like them to treat me; to feed the hungry, clothe the naked....

My god did something. He told me to take some responsibility for aleviating the suffering in the world.

 

[idav]

If the robot goes out of control and becomes evil the creator must own up and take responsibility for it's action due to faulty programming.

That's what kill switches are for, imperfect creations. Is that evil?

 

[-Peacemaker-]

So what are you supposed to use other than your brain to make judgements about God and eternal things?

I believe with all my heart that God is willing to reveal who he is to each one of us in our hearts. I think the first step is asking him to draw you to himself. Tell him you want to know who he really is.

 

[gnomon]

Would you have god kill all the gangs of bad men? Should god turn them into mindless zombies that only do what god wants?

Somewhere there is a jihadist that believes that god should wipe all western civilization off the face of the earth. Would you want god listening to his opinion? That same jihadist would like the entire world to be subject to Sharia law. Is that the kind of world you would want to live in?

The world does not become a perfect place just because it starts conforming to your version of perfection, just like it does not become a perfect place (and by our standards, becomes a less perfect place) if it starts conforming to the jihadists' version of perfection.

The rapes and murders aren't happening because god wills it. They're happening because god has given us freedom of choice ... and we choose to do these things to others, or we choose to stand by and do nothing as others do these things.


"The world has enough for everybody's need, but not enough for one man's greed."
- Mahatma Gandhi

Let's say your entire family kept only the income which was absolutely necessary to meet the necessities (no computer, no TV, only the cheapest available transportation, a small house, no vacations) and gave the rest of the money to charity. How many families could have their necessities met with that extra money?

You don't believe god exists. If you feel that the end of suffering in the world is a worthwhile goal, why aren't you doing everything in your power to make it happen? (Even if you're still a child, you could tell your parents to give money to charity instead of buying you birthday and christmas presents.)

If you're a kind a compassionate person, why aren't you doing (on a small scale) everything you think god should be doing worldwide?


The ethnic strife that is tearing apart Africa has its roots in the age-old hatreds between the tribes. But it was deliberately exacerbated by the European powers who colonized those regions. They drew boundaries to ensure that antagonistic tribes would share the same territory, then they supported the weaker tribe as long as the weaker tribe accepted the Europeans being on the top.

The Europeans got to rake in the wealth with minimal effort. The tribe chosen by the Europeans got to freely oppress their more numerous rivals. And the majority developed a burning hatred for their oppressors.

God didn't create the problem. People did.

Even if god stopped everyone from doing these atrocious things, it would not solve the underlying problem. Look at Eastern Europe. For decades the Soviets kept the ethnic groups from killing each other. As soon as the Soviets left, the ethnic groups started making up for lost time.


My grandmother died of lung cancer, after living for decades with a husband and son who were heavy smokers.

A friend of mine is HIV+. Even though he knew the risks, he still had unprotected sex with dozens of men.

A neighbor is suffering from osteoporosis. He spends all day hunched over his computer keyboard, rather than doing the physical therapy which would alleviate his pain and forestall further deterioration.

His wife is suffering from alzheimers, but he's too enmeshed in denial to get her the proper treatement and social stimulation to slow the progress of the disease.

A friend of mine has Hepatitis C. She wants to have her own biological child, and she's willing to risk passing the disease on to her child in order to achieve that goal.

We don't eat healthy foods; we're sleep deprived; we go to work/school even when we know we have contagious diseases.

God doesn't need to give us debilitating diseases. We do it all on our own.


If you think god is (or ought to be) micromanaging the universe (and our lives), then reality is unlikely to meet that particular expectation.


Not just science. Human nature. Most of us would rather allow 100 strangers suffer and die on the other side of the world rather than personally inconvenience ourselves.


It can mean many things.

Thirty years ago my grandparents were murdered. From that incident, I learned that forgiveness is not something we do to benefit those who have wronged us. It's something we do so we don't end up chained in the past by hatred and anger.

Twenty years ago I was broke, unemployed and starving. That experience has made me more compassionate towards people who have ended up in similar (or worse) situations ... and particularly more understanding of the desperate choices they may be forced to make.

Before I was born, a woman was attacked, repeatedly stabbed, raped and left to die. Numerous bystanders were aware of the attack, but none came to her assistance. This story is taught in many psychology classes. Ten years ago I heard a woman screaming in a nearby apartment. I went running outside (in my underwear) to see whether she was in distress. When I couldn't locate the source of the disturbance, I called the police.


My god told me to love others as I love myself; to treat others in the way I would like them to treat me; to feed the hungry, clothe the naked....

My god did something. He told me to take some responsibility for aleviating the suffering in the world.

What does any of this have to do with analogizing the concept of an all powerful being with that of human parents?

But as Sum of Awe points out the entire problem of suffering concept only works with an all-powerful, all-loving(good) and all knowing type of god. Most religions do not adhere to this concept.

 

[work in progress]

I was at work code reviewing other peoples code when I stumbled onto the youtube video shown below

Here are some of the points in the video:

She points out that there is so much suffering in the in the world and then argues:
"If god is all powerfull and all loving and god gives a ****** about us and has the ability to do something about that then this world doesn't make sense"

Also since God dosn't want to get rid of pain then:
"Either he is an ********* or he is not real"

Thoughts?

[youtube]0pPoRnjFC6E[/youtube]
Would you still be an atheist if... - YouTube

When I was on Atheist Nexus, Angie The Antitheist was there. Okay, she has issues with her fundamentalist upbringing, and so did I when I was young. But, there is not much from what she writes or puts up in Youtube videos that isn't done better by others who take the time to study the issues they want to talk about. Long story short, I wouldn't want to go with this little self-promoter as my primary reference source.

Other commentators will point out that the paradox of Theodicy, or why a loving God allows suffering in the world, was hardly given much consideration until perhaps 150 years ago. Before then it was just a matter of 'he's God, he can do whatever he wants, and who are you to question God's judgments?'

Theodicy didn't become an issue until at least the time of the Enlightenment, when many people's lives (at least in the middle classes) started to improve, and they had plenty of food and basic necessities, and started actively working to make this world a better place. Then they started asking 'why didn't God fix these problems already if he had the power to do so?'

You can resolve the Problem of Evil in a number of different ways:
1. ignore the problem
2. choose a premillenial religion that says 'things are bad now, but God's going to fix all that real soon!'
3. progressive theology - God is limited and not all knowing or all powerful
4. pick a non-personal type of God, like deism or pantheism, where the question is irrelevant to begin with
5. go the antitheist route and throw temper tantrums and hurl abuse at all the people who still believe in a personal, all loving, all knowing, all powerful God. But antitheism doesn't give any guides or assistance on what to put in place of the religion that you escaped from. And that in the end is the weakness of atheism as a movement or a theme to try to organize people around.

 

[gnomon]

........ And that in the end is the weakness of atheism as a movement or a theme to try to organize people around.

Really?

 

[work in progress]

Really?

Yes really! Or maybe I just got fed up with the assorted libertarians and Ayn Rand fans that dominate the atheist/humanist groups and online atheist communities. I realized after awhile, that when it comes to issues that I care about the most - environment, social justice etc. there are more liberal Christians or adherents to some of the bizarro new age type religions around now that I am in agreement with! All I have in common with an atheist like Karl Rove is that we both disbelieve in God....and that's not enough to make me want to sit in the same room with someone like him!

 

[no-body]

That's what kill switches are for, imperfect creations. Is that evil?

Instead of using the kill switch and starting over the man lets the robots reproduce and allows them to inflict untold suffering on each other for generations, then he offers to give them a download that will fix everything if they bow down and worship him and follow him.

This of course makes the man way more evil than his creations could ever be.

 

[Breathe]

True god doesn't have to be all loving but hard for me to think of god as a sadist.

But is that not because of our desire to anthromorphise God into something we can understand and relate to - having the same feelings as us, and so on? Perhaps this God is not sadistic, but it seems that way to us because we think of ourselves, and what we like or dislike. It doesn't necessarily mean this God is a sadist, just indifferent.

Things have to change, and things mutate as we know from evolution. These are laws of life; with life comes illness, pain and death, with death decay. To think that evolution would not throw these up simply because there was a Primal Cause, for example, seems a bit, well, pointless to me.

It also implies that God is perfect, for example - which excludes the Demiurge God concept.

though suffering still seems to be a factor regardless if it is an illusion.

Is that because people cling to this illusion, though? Or people see themselves through an ego-lens. The ego hates change it cannot control. Does that become the causal factor?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Sorry, I thought I did answer your questions.

I conceded that suffering in and of itself isn’t wrong, as it is merely a physical or emotional state.

I then said that the situation could be considered wrong if suffering was allowed to continue when it could be alleviated.

If something in and of itself is not wrong why is it wrong to allow it to happen?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I don't like it.

And I don't like pooping but neither has anything to do with the OP.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Would you rather be suffering or not suffering?

That doesn't answer my question. So far no one has.

 

[idav]

Instead of using the kill switch and starting over the man lets the robots reproduce and allows them to inflict untold suffering on each other for generations, then he offers to give them a download that will fix everything if they bow down and worship him and follow him.

This of course makes the man way more evil than his creations could ever be.

If anything it would be the workings of flawed and imperfect creator that requires experimentation. Letting the experiment run a muck may not be evil but could be carelessness or laziness.

But is that not because of our desire to anthromorphise God into something we can understand and relate to - having the same feelings as us, and so on? Perhaps this God is not sadistic, but it seems that way to us because we think of ourselves, and what we like or dislike. It doesn't necessarily mean this God is a sadist, just indifferent.

In this portion we are finding experience to be something real to at least the creatures going through it. In the value of creation and life we tend to even respect the smallest critters wondering if they feel anything even if they are of no obvious intrinsic value. Would god antromorphise us insignificant specs or is god even capable?

Things have to change, and things mutate as we know from evolution. These are laws of life; with life comes illness, pain and death, with death decay. To think that evolution would not throw these up simply because there was a Primal Cause, for example, seems a bit, well, pointless to me.

It is the flow of energy in positive and negative directions so there is a point but we aren't always on the receiving end. Yes our thinking this is a bad things is wrong but the pain is at least real to us and wouldn't god be feeling these same things? An argument could be that god is going through what we all do which goes to my question as to god inflicting pain on himself.

It also implies that God is perfect, for example - which excludes the Demiurge God concept.


Is that because people cling to this illusion, though? Or people see themselves through an ego-lens. The ego hates change it cannot control. Does that become the causal factor?

I addressed this a bit above but I have another thought. The fact that a nightmare is an illusion doesn't change the cold sweats and actual real fear being experienced. Should it not still be considered?

 

[Breathe]

In this portion we are finding experience to be something real to at least the creatures going through it. In the value of creation and life we tend to even respect the smallest critters wondering if they feel anything even if they are of no obvious intrinsic value. Would god antromorphise us insignificant specs or is god even capable?

Who knows. After all, to a deity we would be like specks of specks of specks of dust, would we not?

An argument could be that god is going through what we all do which goes to my question as to god inflicting pain on himself.

Only if said pain is real.
Otherwise, it's no different to playing a scary or violent video game.
Ultimately, no real harm is done, even if it is scary or looks painful on the outside.

I addressed this a bit above but I have another thought. The fact that a nightmare is an illusion doesn't change the cold sweats and actual real fear being experienced. Should it not still be considered?

Not really.

If I have a dream my wife has an affair, should I be able to divorce her because I had all those feelings, even though were not real in the first place?

 

[Noaidi]

If something in and of itself is not wrong why is it wrong to allow it to happen?

The consequences of allowing it to happen are evident.
Perhaps you can give us your take on this topic.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

The consequences of allowing it to happen are evident.
Perhaps you can give us your take on this topic.

How evasive to the question. What then is wrong about the consequences of suffering?