• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Is God Helpless under the Realm of Free Will????

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
The bible just has so much "Angry God in the Sky" going on,
a concept which has gotten harder for me to accept as my
realization of His omnipotence, omniscience, and love has
increased. Any sacred text which would reinforce the angry-
god idea would be a huge step backward for me, and I like
moving forward.
-
Fair enough..
I would like to say though, that faith has 2 parts:-
1. Having hope in Almighty God's infinite mercy
2. fearing the consequences of evil doing (sin)

Rather like the carrot & the stick, one without the other is not balanced
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
And when does the option manifest itself? Free will demands that subversion manifest. But that's not the only problem: the free will idea is a polytheistic one, in that the one who wills creates something completely apart from God. The one who wills becomes the original, ex nihilo source of will. Doesn't work, unless you're a polytheist, ignoring all visible, scientific implications that reality is deterministic.

Perhaps the option occurs before one chooses to enter this physical universe. The idea that reality is deterministic has to be rooted based on the physical laws of this universe. Since we are all Spiritual beings in our true natures, existence can not be confined or completely defined through these laws.

Quantum physics is showing the possibility of many more dimensions. Being trapped at this moment in our physical bodies and in this physical universe, our view is very limited to what is right in front of our noses. Clearly, a better view and or more information is needed before an entire picture can be seen.

I know one tends to make judgment calls based on the current available information. On the other hand, one must be open, for discovery can change the view and the judgment calls in an instance. Until the picture changes, I might be trapped in this physical universe for the moment, but I CAN FREELY CHOOSE to tap dance while I'm here.
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
Fair enough..
I would like to say though, that faith has 2 parts:-
1. Having hope in Almighty God's infinite mercy
2. fearing the consequences of evil doing (sin)

Rather like the carrot & the stick, one without the other is not balanced

Aren't you making it all about crime and punishment rather than about God loving and educating His Creations??? Isn't mankind the one who insists on using and installing the Fear, both ways? To you, one is fearful God won't have mercy and one is fearful of consequences. Where is the Love that God is? Manipulation through FEAR???
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
...
To you, one is fearful God won't have mercy and one is fearful of consequences. Where is the Love that God is? Manipulation through FEAR???
No .. it's about balance
Do you really think that all your sins will be forgiven without question?

Perhaps you think that Jesus, peace be with him has already atoned your sins so it doesn't matter what you do.
It matters! The Bible says so, but you seem to be ignoring those verses
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
Interesting. Did God create anything? If so where do you draw the line and how do you determine where to draw the line?

I wouldn't really know. Suffice it to say though that what I meant by God not creating everything is that he made use of existing materials to create the universe and most importantly to create us. We have existed in some form or another for eternity. In Doctrine and Covenants 93 (Mormon scripture) we have the following:
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;​

Note that God says He cannot create self-conscious entity.

And from Abraham 3:
18 ...as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.


 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
No .. it's about balance
Do you really think that all your sins will be forgiven without question?

Perhaps you think that Jesus, peace be with him has already atoned your sins so it doesn't matter what you do.
It matters! The Bible says so, but you seem to be ignoring those verses

Forgiveness is meaningless except to make the person committing the sin feel better.

Sin and mistakes are some of the greatest learning tools that ever existed. Could an intelligent God really have a school without them????

You talk about balance. What in reality does anyone need forgiveness for?
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
Not quite, but OK..
Let's talk about repentance then .. is that meaningless?

Isn't the only thing that really matters is Understanding??? Once one understands all sides, intelligence always makes the right choice. Once one has true understanding, the evil choice is no longer a viable choice.
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
In the past when I got into an argument over Hell, I asked the question: If God created Hell knowing someone would actually go there, wouldn't God be a Monster? The answer I received back was that since we all have free will, God is helpless to stop one from going to Hell if they choose Hell for themselves.

Is God really helpless within the realm of free will? I think not.

I was walking through a store one day. A lady was demonstrating some fancy cookware. I don't remember the name. To make a long story short, before she was done with me, I purchased all the cookware. The funny thing was I didn't need cookware, nor did I want cookware, however I bought all the cookware under my own free will.

I know a man who is the world's greatest salesman. He says that a salesman knows he is good when he can sell someone something they don't need or want and make them happy they bought it. This saleslady did just that to me.

This brings us to the point. Is God not capable of doing the very same thing? I have free will and I have cookware now. Wouldn't Hell be empty if God cares at all and yes, under the realm of free will?

So this brings us to the question: Is God a Monster or not? I think not. The concept of Hell is what does not add up.

Hell is the sadistic invention of the religious who use fear as the primary motivation to believe. Why would God and the Heavenly Host want to go through eternity knowing (and hearing), all that endless suffering? If someone is evil and can't stand the Truth of who they were in life, oblivion makes much more sense--and at their own choosing.

As for free will, God (if It exists) created the natural, rational universe to spawn creatures with full self-awareness, able to exercise their moral free will. God can't intervene in order to maintain our free will choices.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Isn't the only thing that really matters is Understanding??? Once one understands all sides, intelligence always makes the right choice. Once one has true understanding, the evil choice is no longer a viable choice.
Using our intelligence to understand things is very important..
However, sincerity is the most important of all
ie. our 'heart', our intentions

Repentance is necessary when we realise we have gone seriously astray and 'burnt' ourselves, overwise our sincerity is in danger
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
Using our intelligence to understand things is very important..
However, sincerity is the most important of all
ie. our 'heart', our intentions

Repentance is necessary when we realise we have gone seriously astray and 'burnt' ourselves, overwise our sincerity is in danger

As a child, you see a pretty little flame on a candle. You stare at flame and are drawn to it. You reach your hand to grab the flame. YEOW!!!!!!! Is it time to repent?? What about sincerity? What does our heart say? Does it matter? WE won't do that again. We Understand!
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
Hell is the sadistic invention of the religious who use fear as the primary motivation to believe. Why would God and the Heavenly Host want to go through eternity knowing (and hearing), all that endless suffering? If someone is evil and can't stand the Truth of who they were in life, oblivion makes much more sense--and at their own choosing.

As for free will, God (if It exists) created the natural, rational universe to spawn creatures with full self-awareness, able to exercise their moral free will. God can't intervene in order to maintain our free will choices.

I agree. There can be no real learning without free will. I can see where a God would never interfere with that. Why should that make God helpless after a choice was made? If God returns our actions, would not one discover from a different side what our choices meant? To me, it sounds like education at it's best. Especially if there were no angry, hate, or condemning involved. If one really understood all sides, would that not also change that moral choice? I think intelligence will make the best choice. People who make bad moral choices just need to learn, right?
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
I agree. There can be no real learning without free will. I can see where a God would never interfere with that.

It's not just learning, it's about influencing the moral choices we make by the mere knowledge, or even liklihood, of God's existence.

Why should that make God helpless after a choice was made?

First off, we could have a change of heart and repent and change our ways, or become evil. But the real problem with any intervention is that it influences everybody, not just one or a few. We continually underestimate the value of free will. That's the only reason God (if It exists) would have created the universe, so that God could bestow that gift on us, for God's benefit as well as our own. If God revealed Itself, we would be like children whose parents are always watching.
If God returns our actions, would not one discover from a different side what our choices meant?

Right and wrong are inherently embedded on our souls through our full self-awareness. It puts us in the shoes of the one(s) we are about to harm or help, and free will allows us to ignore that knowledge or not.

To me, it sounds like education at it's best. Especially if there were no angry, hate, or condemning involved. If one really understood all sides, would that not also change that moral choice?

Hate and being offensive aren't evil in themselves, acting on those feelings alone is when things turn to evil. We must never stop thinking as individuals. The minute we turn our moral decision making over to others, we become part of a mob. And while understanding and diplomacy are vital, we don't surrender our security to others if our lives and liberties are threatened or attacked. Understanding gets us nowhere with evil--of which there are endless examples, i.e. Nazis, Communists, and religious theocrats.

Please explain to me why the Left in the US appears to side with minority rights here at home, but continually forgives and appeases the mistreatment of those groups by radical Islamists elsewhere, or even here, in the name of understanding them.

I think intelligence will make the best choice. People who make bad moral choices just need to learn, right?

They already know what's right and wrong via their self-awareness, but they turn off their intelligence in order to submit to their emotional desires. Wealth, power and influence aren't the sources of evil. People can and do possess those with honor. A moral/legal double standard is the source of all evil. It's one side saying my worth and my rights outweigh yours. Morality is really simple when you sweep away all the crap clerics and politicians have added to it. That simple morality is: Honoring the EQUAL rights of ALL to life, liberty, property and self-defense, to be free from violation through force or fraud. That's it, a simple, precise statement of the Golden Rule. Other rules for individual behavior are individually determined/adopted, and can be called virtues. Morality is the only thing that should be legislated.
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
It's not just learning, it's about influencing the moral choices we make by the mere knowledge, or even liklihood, of God's existence.



First off, we could have a change of heart and repent and change our ways, or become evil. But the real problem with any intervention is that it influences everybody, not just one or a few. We continually underestimate the value of free will. That's the only reason God (if It exists) would have created the universe, so that God could bestow that gift on us, for God's benefit as well as our own. If God revealed Itself, we would be like children whose parents are always watching.


Right and wrong are inherently embedded on our souls through our full self-awareness. It puts us in the shoes of the one(s) we are about to harm or help, and free will allows us to ignore that knowledge or not.



Hate and being offensive aren't evil in themselves, acting on those feelings alone is when things turn to evil. We must never stop thinking as individuals. The minute we turn our moral decision making over to others, we become part of a mob. And while understanding and diplomacy are vital, we don't surrender our security to others if our lives and liberties are threatened or attacked. Understanding gets us nowhere with evil--of which there are endless examples, i.e. Nazis, Communists, and religious theocrats.

Please explain to me why the Left in the US appears to side with minority rights here at home, but continually forgives and appeases the mistreatment of those groups by radical Islamists elsewhere, or even here, in the name of understanding them.



They already know what's right and wrong via their self-awareness, but they turn off their intelligence in order to submit to their emotional desires. Wealth, power and influence aren't the sources of evil. People can and do possess those with honor. A moral/legal double standard is the source of all evil. It's one side saying my worth and my rights outweigh yours. Morality is really simple when you sweep away all the crap clerics and politicians have added to it. That simple morality is: Honoring the EQUAL rights of ALL to life, liberty, property and self-defense, to be free from violation through force or fraud. That's it, a simple, precise statement of the Golden Rule. Other rules for individual behavior are individually determined/adopted, and can be called virtues. Morality is the only thing that should be legislated.


I agree religion,society,people, and governments have great influence on people. On the other side, they only have great influence if one allows them to. It doesn't matter what everyone else does. It's what each person chooses to do that counts.

Is right and wrong or morality already understood? By what standard does everyone go on. Now everybody wants to rule the world. Everyone has different ideas on that.

We all have the power to choose what we deem important in this world. Many people value money and power over people. Do they really know right from wrong? If they could understand all sides by living all sides, I bet their choices would change.

In a Giant multilevel classroom, each student has learned lessons others have not learned yet. Perhaps that is why the world seems so crazy. What is the old saying? Who in their right mind would do that? Wouldn't it only be people who have not learned that lesson?

You are right that one person's choice changes other people's lives. That makes the dynamics of this world even more amazing. Just being able to keep up with the people factor along with all the variables is amazing. If one looks at the universe around us, everything adds up perfectly. Isn't it safe to assume the people factor does as well, only since there are so many variables complete understanding is going to be much harder?

Getting back to another example of lessons learned and not learned. See if this does not make sense. Example: You have a person so wrapped up in their holy book and religion that they can see nothing else. They accept. They believe. They follow. Next there is a person like you. You have already learned that to Question is key to acquiring truth. The religious guy only knows to accept,believe and follow.

What happens at this point, stalemate? Is there any hope? How about interaction among people? Sure it takes plenty of time and drama but people do learn. So this means the fix must be built into the system, right?

Yes,yes, we are going to need many many lifetimes of interaction. On the other hand, if one assumes these dynamics, that means there will always be new students along with new problems to continue the learning process. Drama must always continue because more is learned through the drama than anything else.

OK, let's put this to the test. If one no longer has any problems at all, are they still alive??? I say no. Isn't learning through adversity real? When times are easy, we sit back and enjoy the ride. When those pesky problems arise, don't we have to think. plan, study, analyze, learning so much until the real solutions are discovered?

Like I said. I think it is a very wrong assumption that all people know what choices are truly right and which are truly wrong. Perhaps that is what each of us are truly learning, living our lessons.

By making the assumption that everyone knows right from wrong completely, isn't this a Belief religion has been teaching us all since birth? Doesn't this lone idea generate hate for others who one deems does not live up to the standards created by ourselves or religion??

Instead of trying to define right from wrong, maybe each will discover it for themselves. In the end after living all sides, it will come down to math instead of feelings. There will be only one answer and it will take experience and intelligence to discover that answer.
 

ronandcarol

Member
Premium Member
Is God Helpless under the Realm of Free Will????
The Living God of the Bible is not helpless in ANYTHING! Would it be free will if God stepped in? Actually, even with our free will, the Holy Spirit will help a believer overcome, it states that God will always make a plan for you to resist temptation, you will always have a way out, (if you so choose).

ronandcarol
 

Rapture Era

Active Member
Just curious, has anyone brought up why God created hell in the first place according to the Bible? I think it would be important to establish that first, but maybe I'm wrong.
 

Rapture Era

Active Member
Is right and wrong or morality already understood? By what standard does everyone go on.
From the biblical standpoint, the 10 commandments were given as that standard to live by. It is the perfect standard or law by which we are to live. Can you imagine what the world would be like if everyone did there best to follow all 10 of them? We are all guilty of this law because none of us can keep it. But it is a standard to try and follow. When we break any one of these laws, our morality and understanding of right and wrong are realized either by our guilt or the consequences of our free will to do it anyway when we are told not to. Just for reference:

The Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:2-17 NKJV)

1 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me.

2 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My Commandments.

3 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.

4 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

5 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.

6 “You shall not murder.

7 “You shall not commit adultery.

8 “You shall not steal.

9 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

10 “You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.”
 
Last edited:
Top