Is god perfect?

[tarasan]

Specifically, I said desire for worship is low and petty. As in, it would be low and petty for a being to request, demand, desire, or need worship from other beings.

Although I don't think doing the worshiping is a particularly self-actualized behavior either, that's not the side I was targeting.

like i said below God doesnt need our worship, rather he wants the worship of those who state they follow him, after all if your following a diety wouldnt you need to love and honour him?

 

[Troublemane]

Perfection would never necessitate a change a state.

Thats one kind of perfection, but there is another kind that would be in constant motion and continual change.

I would think for God to be absolutely perfect, He/She/It would have to be totally static and in constant flux at all times, simultaneously. And include every kind of opposite, to the point of being both totally perfect and completely imperfect at the same time! Thats really the only way to cover all the bases, wouldnt you agree?:angel2:

 

[Penumbra]

like i said below God doesnt need our worship,

I'm not arguing that any gods need worship (or even exist).

The OP asked if gods need worship, and my response was to say that needing (or desiring) worship is petty and low. So no, anything that could reasonably be described as a god would not need worship.

rather he wants the worship of those who state they follow him, after all if your following a diety wouldnt you need to love and honour him?

Why would god want the worship of anyone?

And to answer your question, no, I would not be inclined to worship any deities.

 

[tarasan]

are you saying believers don't worship god, of course they do and why is that?
they ascribe to a celestial dictatorship

all i am trying to say is;
the mere thought of a supreme being being worshipped comes from exactly what i said before about the believer who

of course not they very thing you highlighted stated the exact opposite of the statement! please read what i write.

who are we?

do you care what a worm thinks of you? i don't think so.

is a worm sentient and can it think anything of me? it depends on how much i put value in the worm. and please dont assume my response its rude.

 

[TheSunofReality]

I will throw you some thinking meat from Some Answered Questions:

A question is asked Abdul-baha on the proofs of the existence of God:



Answer: It is certain and indisputable that the creator of man is not like man because a powerless creature cannot create another being. The maker, the creator, has to possess all perfections in order that he may create.
Can the creation be perfect and the creator imperfect? Can a picture be a masterpiece and the painter imperfect in his art? For it is his art and his creation. Moreover, the picture cannot be like the painter; otherwise, the painting would have created itself. However perfect the picture may be, in comparison with the painter it is in the utmost degree of imperfection.
The contingent world is the source of imperfections: God is the origin of perfections. The imperfections of the contingent world are in themselves a proof of the perfections of God.
For example, when you look at man, you see that he is weak. This very weakness of the creature is a proof of the power of the Eternal Almighty One, because, if there were no power, weakness could not be imagined. Then the weakness of the creature is a proof of the power of God; for if there were no power, there could be no weakness; so from this weakness it becomes evident that there is power in the world. Again, in the contingent world there is poverty; then necessarily wealth exists, since poverty is apparent in the world. In the contingent world there is ignorance; necessarily knowledge exists, because ignorance is found; for if there were no knowledge, neither would there be ignorance. Ignorance is the nonexistence of knowledge, and if there were no existence, nonexistence could not be realized.
It is certain that the whole contingent world is subjected to a law and rule which it can never disobey; even man is forced to submit to death, to sleep and to other conditions—that is to say, man in certain particulars is governed, and necessarily this state of being governed implies the existence of a governor. Because a characteristic of contingent beings is dependency, and this dependency is an essential necessity, therefore, there must be an independent being whose independence is essential.
In the same way it is understood from the man who is sick that there must be one who is in health; for if there were no health, his sickness could not be proved.
Therefore, it becomes evident that there is an Eternal Almighty One, Who is the possessor of all perfections, because unless He possessed all perfections He would be like His creation.

 

[tarasan]

I'm not arguing that any gods need worship (or even exist).

The OP asked if gods need worship, and my response was to say that needing (or desiring) worship is petty and low. So no, anything that could reasonably be described as a god would not need worship.

thats fine I agree with that

Why would god want the worship of anyone?

And to answer your question, no, I would not be inclined to worship any deities.

well worship is love and honouring a diety. if you are claiming to be in a relationship with God then shouldnt you by being in a relationship love and honour him? worship is pretty much a relationship with the divine, so to cliam to be a christian and yet not worship him would be hypocritical.

 

[Penumbra]

thats fine I agree with that

well worship is love and honouring a diety. if you are claiming to be in a relationship with God then shouldnt you by being in a relationship love and honour him? worship is pretty much a relationship with the divine, so to cliam to be a christian and yet not worship him would be hypocritical.

You're watering down the definition of worship.

I love and honor my parents. I certainly don't worship them.

 

[tarasan]

You're watering down the definition of worship.

I love and honor my parents. I certainly don't worship them.

noun

1. 1. reverence or devotion for a deity; religious homage or veneration
   2. a church service or other rite showing this
2. extreme devotion or intense love or admiration of any kind
3. Chiefly Brit. a title of honor used in speaking to or of magistrates, mayors, or certain others holding high rank: preceded by Your or by His or Her
4. Rare something worshiped
5. Rare a distinct type of religious group, as a sect
6. Archaic greatness of character; honor; dignity; worthiness

im not really watering it down, it is to honour love or devote yourself, the only statement are just religious rights but they are done with the other definitions in mind to love honour and devote yourself to a diety.

so yes it is a relationship, just a different kind, unless of course you treat all your relationships the same?

 

[waitasec]

of course not they very thing you highlighted stated the exact opposite of the statement! please read what i write.

they ascribe to celestial dictatorship, that doesn't seem to bother you...weird

is a worm sentient and can it think anything of me? it depends on how much i put value in the worm. and please dont assume my response its rude.

insects, being heavily reliant on sight and touch, perhaps are sentient or 'conscious' of their existence. so, to suggest otherwise is to suggest arrogance on our part.
so if god is so much more perfect then we are, why would we worship it?

 

[TheSunofReality]

tell me what you think of my previous post?

 

[Penumbra]

noun

1. 1. reverence or devotion for a deity; religious homage or veneration
   2. a church service or other rite showing this
2. extreme devotion or intense love or admiration of any kind
3. Chiefly Brit. a title of honor used in speaking to or of magistrates, mayors, or certain others holding high rank: preceded by Your or by His or Her
4. Rare something worshiped
5. Rare a distinct type of religious group, as a sect
6. Archaic greatness of character; honor; dignity; worthiness

im not really watering it down, it is to honour love or devote yourself, the only statement are just religious rights but they are done with the other definitions in mind to love honour and devote yourself to a diety.

I think "extreme devotion" is an adequate definition for it and I definitely don't consider extreme devotion to be a healthy behavior.

Instead of giving a man a fish, teach him to fish. Instead of desiring, enticing, or allowing people to rely on you, teach them to rely on themselves.

so yes it is a relationship, just a different kind, unless of course you treat all your relationships the same?

No, I don't treat all relationships the same but I don't worship things either.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Is god perfect?

The cosmic universal force, underlying reality- Could be said to be perfect, but is really indifferent

Personal gods- Not perfect, but much higher then human beings

 

[waitasec]

I will throw you some thinking meat from Some Answered Questions:

A question is asked Abdul-baha on the proofs of the existence of God:



Answer: It is certain and indisputable that the creator of man is not like man because a powerless creature cannot create another being. The maker, the creator, has to possess all perfections in order that he may create.

from what i gather, the existence of a creator, is uncertain and disputable

Can the creation be perfect and the creator imperfect? Can a picture be a masterpiece and the painter imperfect in his art? For it is his art and his creation. Moreover, the picture cannot be like the painter; otherwise, the painting would have created itself. However perfect the picture may be, in comparison with the painter it is in the utmost degree of imperfection.
The contingent world is the source of imperfections: God is the origin of perfections. The imperfections of the contingent world are in themselves a proof of the perfections of God.
For example, when you look at man, you see that he is weak. This very weakness of the creature is a proof of the power of the Eternal Almighty One, because, if there were no power, weakness could not be imagined. Then the weakness of the creature is a proof of the power of God; for if there were no power, there could be no weakness; so from this weakness it becomes evident that there is power in the world. Again, in the contingent world there is poverty; then necessarily wealth exists, since poverty is apparent in the world. In the contingent world there is ignorance; necessarily knowledge exists, because ignorance is found; for if there were no knowledge, neither would there be ignorance. Ignorance is the nonexistence of knowledge, and if there were no existence, nonexistence could not be realized.
It is certain that the whole contingent world is subjected to a law and rule which it can never disobey; even man is forced to submit to death, to sleep and to other conditions—that is to say, man in certain particulars is governed, and necessarily this state of being governed implies the existence of a governor. Because a characteristic of contingent beings is dependency, and this dependency is an essential necessity, therefore, there must be an independent being whose independence is essential.
In the same way it is understood from the man who is sick that there must be one who is in health; for if there were no health, his sickness could not be proved.
Therefore, it becomes evident that there is an Eternal Almighty One, Who is the possessor of all perfections, because unless He possessed all perfections He would be like His creation.

if you look out into the cosmos there is an awful amount of destruction going on...if all that was the result of a creator, what a waste...

 

[tarasan]

I think "extreme devotion" is an adequate definition for it and I definitely don't consider extreme devotion to be a healthy behavior.

Instead of giving a man a fish, teach him to fish. Instead of desiring, enticing, or allowing people to rely on you, teach them to rely on themselves.

firstly we dont rely on ourself Pen, we live in a multi structured society which makes us relay on each other constantly, you relay on your work to pay you, your family to love and support you, people to do their jobs so that the economy flows, heck even in some way you relay on this website to give you something to do. so please dont tell me we relay on ourselves!

and again its how you define extreme devotion. if its blowing people up yes not very healthy, but im not sure you could conclusively prove that its bad, after all lots of christians are kind to others because of their devotion.

No, I don't treat all relationships the same but I don't worship things either.

well I would show my wife extreme devotion by not cheating on her and i would love her etc, again it all depends on how extreme it is.

 

[Penumbra]

firstly we dont rely on ourself Pen, we live in a multi structured society which makes us relay on each other constantly, you relay on your work to pay you, your family to love and support you, people to do their jobs so that the economy flows, heck even in some way you relay on this website to give you something to do. so please dont tell me we relay on ourselves!

The majority of us, including me, certainly don't rely entirely on ourselves. But the more that people can rely on themselves (especially emotionally), the better. The best way to help someone is to teach them to be responsible, independent, and able to make their own way.

I rely on a reasonable economy and the lack of physical threats, but I don't rely on love in the form of emotional support from other people. I did when I was a child, because I was unable to fend for myself physically and economically, but my parents raised me in a good way and therefore I turned out in such a way that I could fend for myself in most situations. In other words, they helped me by doing the above- teaching me to be responsible, independent, and able to make my own way. A mother that teaches her child to always rely on her for support, to live at home indefinitely, to emotionally need her, does a disservice to her child. A mother that teachers her child how to be a well-adjusted, emotionally strong child that is able to responsibly handle various matters does a much better service for her child.

The same logic applies to a god. A god that would have her followers rely on her, give her extreme devotion, let her think for them, and so forth, is doing a disservice to her followers.

and again its how you define extreme devotion. if its blowing people up yes not very healthy, but im not sure you could conclusively prove that its bad, after all lots of christians are kind to others because of their devotion.

The Christians that are kind to others do so because they are kind people. If some of them would otherwise not be kind if not for their devotion, then they are immoral people.

well I would show my wife extreme devotion by not cheating on her and i would love her etc, again it all depends on how extreme it is.

That's respect , integrity, and reasonable devotion rather than worship or "extreme devotion".

Would you say that you worship your wife? Would that be an appropriate choice of words? I certainly don't worship my partner nor do I want him to worship me.

 

[TheSunofReality]

waitasec:

if you look out into the cosmos there is an awful amount of destruction going on...if all that was the result of a creator, what a waste...

I respect your belief that God does not exist, and I can understand why you think this, yet I disagree.

In my personal belief, I believe that God is unknowable in is essence, and can only be known through his Manifestations or prophets. An analogy of this would be that God is likened to the Sun and the prophets are mirrors. They reflect perfectly the attributes of God but are not God.

All of this taken into account, if God exists, and all of this destruction is happening in the cosmos, how can we understand the meaning of this destruction and call it a waste.

Again this is just my belief.

 

[Penumbra]

waitasec:

I respect your belief that God does not exist, and I can understand why you think this, yet I disagree.

In my personal belief, I believe that God is unknowable in is essence, and can only be known through his Manifestations or prophets. An analogy of this would be that God is likened to the Sun and the prophets are mirrors. They reflect perfectly the attributes of God but are not God.

All of this taken into account, if God exists, and all of this destruction is happening in the cosmos, how can we understand the meaning of this destruction and call it a waste.

Again this is just my belief.

What is your belief based on?

 

[TheSunofReality]

What is your belief based on?

I base my belief on the writings of the Baha'i Faith.

 

[waitasec]

waitasec:

I respect your belief that God does not exist, and I can understand why you think this, yet I disagree.

In my personal belief, I believe that God is unknowable in is essence, and can only be known through his Manifestations or prophets. An analogy of this would be that God is likened to the Sun and the prophets are mirrors. They reflect perfectly the attributes of God but are not God.

All of this taken into account, if God exists, and all of this destruction is happening in the cosmos, how can we understand the meaning of this destruction and call it a waste.

Again this is just my belief.

you know i was think the same thing after i wrote that,
how can we understand, with our limited ability, all the destruction in the cosmos is meaningless?
i respect your belief, because you do admit that god is unknowable.
however, to give prophets a certain level of superiority over any one else to me seems like the blind leading the blind, imo. personally i would trust science more then myth any day of the week...

 

[Penumbra]

I base my belief on the writings of the Baha'i Faith.

Yes but I mean what leads you to believe that they are true?