Is halloween _pagan

[Bear Wild]

Equating traditions like guising ( or later trick or treat) with offerings to the dead seems a bit of a stretch to me.

They emerge too late to represent pagan traditions, and have clear parallels as generic celebrations of festivals at other times of the year.

This is the same with most of these supposedly pagan traditions, there is just too long a gap between their emergence and the earlier decline of paganism.

There is likely some degree of residual cultural influence as nothing emerges from a vacuum, but this is generally indirect and simply one part of a much larger mix.

There are also a lot of odd things in Medieval and early modern Christianity that seem a bit alien to us now, but did have symbolism and meaning back then and reflect their cultural creativity rather than borrowings from an earlier age.

In America the tradition really seems to start after the large scale immigration of the Irish because of the potato famine. So the tradition was imported by Christians and not pagans, but the Christianization of Ireland particularly in western Ireland was peaceful and also accommodated many pre-Christian beliefs and rituals. There are amazing old recordings of interviews with older Irish people describing their relationship with otherworld beings. These relationships were indigenous remnants considered not important enough to eliminate by the church. There is no evidence that these pre-conversion rituals were imported from Rome for the people. I believe it is clear enough to see that these were the remnant pagan rituals adapted to the new catholic church.

In addition we can see from other indigenous non-Christian religions the importance of masks, shapeshifting and offerings to the other than human beings. This is a very indigenous practice whereas the Christian religion was very transcendent. In fact there is quite amazing documentation of how ubiquitous this is in religions of the remaining indigenous culture. Thus Halloween imported from Ireland by Christians clearly has roots in their pre-Christian indigenous past. Pagan as used by the church referred to the country dwellers who were retaining their pre-Christian rituals.

Ronald Hutton who is a pagan came to the conclusion the paganism as an active religion ultimately died out in Celtic Isles and claimed anyone saying they are pagan are doing so as a new religion and not from some unbroken line. of an old one. That does not mean that everything “pagan” was lost. Fortunately for us pagans one can learn from the residual relationships to the land and otherworld which were preserved best in the two Islands that were the farthest from Rome – Ireland and Iceland. In addition, we are thankful that any of the myths were preserved by the Christians – again more completely in the most remote areas from Rome.

So the modern Halloween practices in the us have roots through the Irish who maintained many ritual connections to the land. So a person who wants to celebrate Halloween as a pagan celebrating relationships with the land and otherworld beings can feel comfortable they are enjoying a pagan Halloween.

 

[Little Dragon]

How did the churches back when celabrate

Traditionally, in the UK, halloween was not celebrated as such, just all hallows day on november the 1st, a day of veneration of the Christian saints.
The whole trick or treat thing, arrived to us from the United States. The old Celtic religion, that existed in Britain, before the Romans came with Christianity, observed an end of harvest festival called Samhain. Modern revivalist druidic religions and others still observe Samhain, in the UK and elsewhere. The spooky additions of halloween might be remnants of ancestor veneration, in the festival of Samhain, that have lingered on.
The folklore myth in the UK is that on halloween, the spirits of the dead visit the living, and witches are free to do pretty much whatever they like.

 

[Little Dragon]

In addition, we are thankful that any of the myths were preserved by the Christians – again more completely in the most remote areas from Rome.

Assimilated into their own belief systems you mean, like christmas. Another pagan festival. Originally.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

And the idea that God abhors our prayers for the dead is not a claim I accept.

I said Halloween “includes things the God of the Bible abhors.”
Did I specifically say God abhors prayers?
No.
Please don’t misrepresent what I said.

I don’t really need to be specific, do I?
Or do you think Jehovah God approves of witches? What does the Bible say?

 

[Little Dragon]

I said Halloween “includes things the God of the Bible abhors.”

Harmless fun for the kids. Of no interest to me. Still, any excuse for a party! Especially in a glum overcast cold wet nation, like this north sea island group I live on, with precious little else to look forward to, apart from the ghastly expense of Christmas. My least favourite holiday ever.

 

[Augustus]

Assimilated into their own belief systems you mean, like christmas. Another pagan festival. Originally.

Which festival?

Saturnalia was celebrated on a different date alongside Christmas and Sol Invictus likely post dates Christmas. This makes it somewhat difficult for either to be the original basis.

It’s likely on 25 Dec as that is 9 months after the annunciation and this date was probably established in North Africa before the date even became a celebration.

While such “its pagan” views are common in pop culture and anre endlessly repeated, it is probably another myth and has not much evidence in its favour and a fair bit of evidence against.

All of the Christmas/Easter/Halloween is pagan tropes don’t really stand up to much scrutiny, and largely grew out of Protestant anti-Catholic polemic, reinforced by 19th c Romanticism, neo-paganism and and post-enlightenment anti-Christian polemic.

There is some scholarly support for Christmas having pagan origins, but this is very much contested and more recent scholarship seems to find against it. Most of the “pagan” festivities seem to be Christian in origin too, and most are pretty recent rather than ancient unbroken traditions.

 

[Little Dragon]

There is some scholarly support for Christmas having pagan origins, but this is very much contested and more recent scholarship seems to find against it.

Yes because winter and holly & Ivy and father christmas and elves and trees and other symbols are so obviously christian in origin.

 

[Little Dragon]

While such “its pagan” views are common in pop culture and anre endlessly repeated, it is probably another myth and has not much evidence in its favour and a fair bit of evidence against.

Either way christmas is terrible.

 

[Augustus]

Yes because winter and holly & Ivy and father christmas and elves and trees and other symbols are so obviously christian in origin.

Winter and seasonal flora are not “pagan”, they are just a consequence of the date.

Decorative Trees are from early modern Germany rather than being ancient pagan symbols.

iirc elves are 20th c American additions.

Saint Nick is a Christian saint.

Father Christmas is a late medieval/early modern English personification of Christmas.

Nothing particularly “pagan” about any of them. They are just cultural additions to Christian tradition.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Yes because winter and holly & Ivy and father christmas and elves and trees and other symbols are so obviously christian in origin.

Sounds like winter decorations, with the exception of Santa and his elves, which is a derivative of a real life saint, St Nicholas.

 

[Little Dragon]

Decorative Trees are from early modern Germany rather than being ancient pagan symbols.

"The tree tradition we are accustomed to today hails from Northern Europe, where Germanic pagan tribes decorated evergreen trees in worship of the god Woden with candles and dried fruit. The tradition was incorporated into the Christian faith in Germany during the 1500’s. They decorated trees in their homes with sweets, lights, and toys."

A BRIEF HISTORY OF CHRISTMAS - Voice & Vision, Inc.

If you are anything like us here at Voice and Vision, you are eagerly anticipating the extra-long holiday weekend. As our gift to you, we want to send you off with some fun Christmas facts. Please feel free to use them for interesting conversation starters at your gatherings. (You’re welcome)...

voiceandvisioninc.org

 

[Little Dragon]

with the exception of Santa and his elves, which is a derivative of a real life saint, St Nicholas.

"Santa Claus may owe his earliest influence to Odin (also known as Wodan), a god revered by Germanic peoples in Northern Europe as early as 2 B.C.E. Odin was celebrated during Yule, a pagan holiday that took place midwinter. During this time, Odin was said to lead the Wild Hunt, a ghostly procession through the sky."

The Fascinating Folklore Origins of Santa Claus

How did the tale of a plump man in a sled come to be synonymous with Christmas? As it turns out, Santa Claus has roots in the folklore of several different European countries.

explorethearchive.com

 

[IndigoChild5559]

"The tree tradition we are accustomed to today hails from Northern Europe, where Germanic pagan tribes decorated evergreen trees in worship of the god Woden with candles and dried fruit. The tradition was incorporated into the Christian faith in Germany during the 1500’s. They decorated trees in their homes with sweets, lights, and toys."

A BRIEF HISTORY OF CHRISTMAS - Voice & Vision, Inc.

If you are anything like us here at Voice and Vision, you are eagerly anticipating the extra-long holiday weekend. As our gift to you, we want to send you off with some fun Christmas facts. Please feel free to use them for interesting conversation starters at your gatherings. (You’re welcome)...

voiceandvisioninc.org

Germans didn't really start using Christmas trees until the 16th century, long after the demise of paganism.

"Germany is credited with starting the Christmas tree tradition as we now know it in the 16th century when devout Christians brought decorated trees into their homes."

History of Christmas Trees ‑ Symbolism, Traditions & Trivia | HISTORY

The history of Christmas trees goes back to the symbolic use of evergreens in ancient Egypt and Rome and continues with the German tradition of candlelit Christmas trees first brought to America in the 1800s.

www.history.com

 

[Little Dragon]

Winter and seasonal flora are not “pagan”, they are just a consequence of the date.

They are the symbols of eternal life, the evergreen of holly and ivy, the red blood breast of robins, all symbols of life overcoming death, and winter was a time of death, in the cold north.
NOT the Levant...

 

[Little Dragon]

Germans didn't really start using Christmas trees until the 16th century, long after the demise of paganism.

Is that so? Ok then thanks. Tell that to the pagans, who have had their most ancient traditions assimilated by an alien faith from the ME.

 

[Little Dragon]

Father Christmas is a late medieval/early modern English personification of Christmas.

Maybe or maybe Father Christmas is a remnant of Wodin/Woden. Lingering on, as a fat jolly man flying around in a sleigh, rewarding the good, and punishing the wicked, a bit like any other God.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Is that so? Ok then thanks. Tell that to the pagans, who have had their most ancient traditions assimilated by an alien faith from the ME.

Pagan had been gone for hundreds of years before Christians started doing christmas trees.

 

[Little Dragon]

Pagan had been gone for hundreds of years before Christians started doing christmas trees.

What would you know? Were you alive back in 1600s Germany? You think they had no pagan traditions back then? They still do, so do we Brits. Your statements are insulting.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

What would you know? Were you alive back in 1600s Germany? You think they had no pagan traditions back then? They still do, so do we Brits. Your statements are insulting.

I have the same access to historians that you have. The last pagans of Germany were the Saxons who were forcefully converted in the end of the sixth century. They had no impact on the traditions that Christians developed in the 16th century because they were gone and forgotten.

 

[Little Dragon]

Pagan had been gone for hundreds of years before Christians started doing christmas trees.

Christianity did incredible damage to our culture and traditions. We lost so much. That we will never get back.