Is halloween _pagan

[Augustus]

Humbug!
That's all there is to say at the moment. Christmas. Silly. Back stories? I would love to bore you all with why I intensely revile the festive season. Maybe when it's December. When my patience has already worn thin.

Sounds like you can expect a visit from a Christmas soon to rekindle your Christmas spirit.

God bless us every one

 

[Glaurung]

I said Halloween “includes things the God of the Bible abhors.”

It doesn't though. Even the secular/cultural observance is mostly benign. There's nothing sinful in kids dressing up in costumes asking for treats. There's nothing sinful in a spooky themed get together. If some people use Halloween as a pretext for occult/superstitious practices then that's their sin to answer for.

Abusus non tollit usum.

Did I specifically say God abhors prayers?
No.
Please don’t misrepresent what I said.

Not prayer but prayer for the dead.

The purpose of the Allhallowtide triduum is to remember and for pray the dead. When you claim God abhors Halloween you are implying the notion that God abhors such prayers.

I don’t really need to be specific, do I?
Or do you think Jehovah God approves of witches? What does the Bible say?

What has witchcraft got to do with Halloween? Do you really think consumes and trick or treating is a form of witchcraft? Is it an abomination to light a candle at a loved one's grave?

That a Neo-Pagan element has taken up Halloween for their own purposes does not make Halloween as a wider cultural observance evil. Again, Halloween in and of itself is just the eve of All Saints' Day. What some people choose to do with it does not make it evil for everyone else.

Spoiler: This is the true meaning of Allhallowtide

 

[RestlessSoul]

Christianity did incredible damage to our culture and traditions. We lost so much. That we will never get back.

How do you know? Where you around in pre-Christian Europe?

 

[Augustus]

How do you know? Where you around in pre-Christian Europe?

I wonder who these “our” are?

Our culture and traditions are largely Christian.

No doubt pre-Christian traditions would be completely alien to a modern person, and few would find them preferable.

The dead chieftain was put in a temporary grave with nābidh, fruit, and a drum, which was covered for ten days until they had sewn new clothes for him. Ibn Fadlān says that the dead man's family ask his slave girls and young slave boys for a volunteer to die with him; "usually, it is the slave girls who offer to die".[27] A woman volunteered and was continually accompanied by two slave girls, daughters of the Angel of Death, being given a great amount of intoxicating drinks while she sang happily. When the time had arrived for cremation, they pulled his boat ashore from the river and put it on a platform of wood.[28][21]

They made a richly furnished bed for the dead chieftain on the ship. Thereafter, an old woman referred to as the "Angel of Death" put cushions on the bed. Then they disinterred the chieftain and dressed him in the new clothes. The chieftain was sat on his bed with nābidh, fruit, basil, bread, meat, and onions about him.[29][21]

Then they cut a dog in two and threw the halves into the boat, and placed the man's weapons beside him. They had two horses run themselves sweaty, cut them to pieces, and threw the meat into the ship. Finally, they killed two cows, a hen and a cock, and did the same with them.[29][21]

Meanwhile, the slave girl went from one tent to the other and had sexual intercourse with the master of each. Every man told her: "Tell your master that I have done this purely out of love for you."[16] In the afternoon, they moved the slave girl to something that looked like a door frame, where she was lifted on the palms of the men three times. Every time, the girl told them what she saw. The first time, she saw her father and mother, the second time, she saw all her deceased relatives, and the third time she saw her master in Paradise. There, it was green and beautiful and together with him, she saw men and young people. She saw that her master beckoned for her. Then she was brought a chicken which she decapitated, and which was then thrown on the boat.[30][21]

Thereafter, the slave girl was taken away to the ship. She removed her bracelets and gave them to the old woman. Thereafter she removed her anklets and gave them to the old woman's two daughters. Then they took her aboard the ship, but they did not allow her to enter the tent where the dead chieftain lay. The girl received several vessels of intoxicating drinks and she sang, before the old woman urged her to enter the tent. "I saw that the girl did not know what she was doing", notes Ibn Fadlān.[31][21]

Then the girl was pulled into the tent by the old woman and the men started to beat on their shields with sticks so her screams could not be heard. Six men entered the tent to have intercourse with the girl, after which they laid her onto her master's bed beside him. Two men grabbed her hands, and two men her wrists. The angel of death looped a rope around her neck and while two men pulled the rope, the old woman stabbed the girl between her ribs with a knife.[32][21]

Thereafter, the closest male relative of the dead chieftain walked backwards, naked, covering his anus with one hand and a piece of burning wood with the other, and set the ship aflame, after which other people added wood to the fire.

 

[Little Dragon]

No doubt pre-Christian traditions would be completely alien to a modern person, and few would find them preferable.

I find Christian traditions to be utterly alien and definitely not preferable. I would in fact prefer no ritualistic religious festivals and traditions whatsoever.
Pagan, Christian, or otherwise. I just find your ugly and wholly anticipated contempt for pre christian religious and culture, obnoxious and condescending, so I felt unnaturally compelled to defend the pagans.

Modern pagan revivalist religions are growing in popularity, while Christianity is dying out in Europe, especially in the UK. As an agnostic, I know which set of religious practices and beliefs I want to see eclipse the other. It's definitely not Christianity. I would celebrate along with the pagans, when the last English Christian church is rededicated to the old faith. I would indeed. Alas, I probably will not witness such a day.

 

[Little Dragon]

God bless us every one

Please no. Even posting that makes my eyes bleed. Tiny Tim is half starved to death and a cripple and he thinks God is blessing him. Such blind loyalty, to be expected from a child of course.

 

[Little Dragon]

How do you know? Where you around in pre-Christian Europe?

History. The druids the old faith and many other things that existed before the Romans arrived and butchered our culture and imposed their disgusting hedonistic culture and alien belief systems upon my ancestors. Filthy Romans...

 

[Little Dragon]

Then they cut a dog in two and threw the halves into the boat, and placed the man's weapons beside him. They had two horses run themselves sweaty, cut them to pieces, and threw the meat into the ship. Finally, they killed two cows, a hen and a cock, and did the same with them.[29][21]

Nice attempt to demonize by the way.

In fact I could tell you a few stories about the Crusades, about Witch Burnings, about the Holy Inqusition, about Church run schools and children's homes, about sweaty priests and choirboys, tales which would sicken you to the core.
We could wonder about the cannibalistic ritual of Holy mass...
We could examine self flagellation...
We could examine modern religious persecution and coercion with fear and physical abuse...
We could look at the traitorous fundamentalist churches of the United States, in league with Nazis and foreign adversaries...
We could look at so many things...

Plus have you ever read the BIble?
It is packed full with horrific mind blowingly sadistic ****. From human sacrifice to bears ripping kids apart...

Ever heard of the story of Lot?
He was an incestuous drunken sex offender, yet lauded by God. Impregnated his two daughters, the same two daughters he was going to throw to a gang of would be angel rapists.

The log is in thine own eye...

 

[RestlessSoul]

History. The druids the old faith and many other things that existed before the Romans arrived and butchered our culture and imposed their disgusting hedonistic culture and alien belief systems upon my ancestors. Filthy Romans...

The only historical records we have of pre-Roman Britain is a few brief and extremely unreliable references from the Romans themselves.

I’m interested to know btw, why you claim these people, and not the Romans, Saxons, Jutes, Angles, Normans etc, as your ancestors?

 

[Little Dragon]

The only historical records we have of pre-Roman Britain is a few brief and extremely unreliable references from the Romans themselves.

I’m interested to know btw, why you claim these people, and not the Romans, Saxons, Jutes, Angles, Normans etc, as your ancestors?

The ancient Britons, were not replaced by the Romans, in fact Roman interaction with the Briton population was very limited, as far as gene flow was concerned. The next waves of invaders from Scandinavia and Northern Europe, left a greater genetic impact, but again, they did not replace, they merely assimilated into the gene pool.

Today the British can trace about half of their ancestry to the ancient pre Roman Britons. The Irish and Welsh, more so.
It's not the Germanics, that I do not consider to be ancestors, especially as my grandmother is from Norway. It's the Romans. Who were the real interlopers. At least the pre Roman Celtic tribes across Europe, shared much in common, with religion and culture and of course, language. With the Britons and each other.

 

[Bear Wild]

I wonder who these “our” are?

Our culture and traditions are largely Christian.

No doubt pre-Christian traditions would be completely alien to a modern person, and few would find them preferable.

The dead chieftain was put in a temporary grave with nābidh, fruit, and a drum, which was covered for ten days until they had sewn new clothes for him. Ibn Fadlān says that the dead man's family ask his slave girls and young slave boys for a volunteer to die with him; "usually, it is the slave girls who offer to die".[27] A woman volunteered and was continually accompanied by two slave girls, daughters of the Angel of Death, being given a great amount of intoxicating drinks while she sang happily. When the time had arrived for cremation, they pulled his boat ashore from the river and put it on a platform of wood.[28][21]

They made a richly furnished bed for the dead chieftain on the ship. Thereafter, an old woman referred to as the "Angel of Death" put cushions on the bed. Then they disinterred the chieftain and dressed him in the new clothes. The chieftain was sat on his bed with nābidh, fruit, basil, bread, meat, and onions about him.[29][21]

Then they cut a dog in two and threw the halves into the boat, and placed the man's weapons beside him. They had two horses run themselves sweaty, cut them to pieces, and threw the meat into the ship. Finally, they killed two cows, a hen and a cock, and did the same with them.[29][21]

Meanwhile, the slave girl went from one tent to the other and had sexual intercourse with the master of each. Every man told her: "Tell your master that I have done this purely out of love for you."[16] In the afternoon, they moved the slave girl to something that looked like a door frame, where she was lifted on the palms of the men three times. Every time, the girl told them what she saw. The first time, she saw her father and mother, the second time, she saw all her deceased relatives, and the third time she saw her master in Paradise. There, it was green and beautiful and together with him, she saw men and young people. She saw that her master beckoned for her. Then she was brought a chicken which she decapitated, and which was then thrown on the boat.[30][21]

Thereafter, the slave girl was taken away to the ship. She removed her bracelets and gave them to the old woman. Thereafter she removed her anklets and gave them to the old woman's two daughters. Then they took her aboard the ship, but they did not allow her to enter the tent where the dead chieftain lay. The girl received several vessels of intoxicating drinks and she sang, before the old woman urged her to enter the tent. "I saw that the girl did not know what she was doing", notes Ibn Fadlān.[31][21]

Then the girl was pulled into the tent by the old woman and the men started to beat on their shields with sticks so her screams could not be heard. Six men entered the tent to have intercourse with the girl, after which they laid her onto her master's bed beside him. Two men grabbed her hands, and two men her wrists. The angel of death looped a rope around her neck and while two men pulled the rope, the old woman stabbed the girl between her ribs with a knife.[32][21]

Thereafter, the closest male relative of the dead chieftain walked backwards, naked, covering his anus with one hand and a piece of burning wood with the other, and set the ship aflame, after which other people added wood to the fire.

So was the account of this given by the Norse people or from an Arab visitor? I have no doubt there was some truth in it but distortions of the accounts were also very common in reporting back to their people to emphasis the barbaric practices and superiority of their culture. Which of course would never do anything barbaric. Right? Caesar did this in his reports also to help fund his expansion campaign. We know the Romans never did anything barbaric because they were civilized! The catholic church has also always been civilized and never did anything so barbaric. Right?

The Norse and Celtic had things we would consider good and bad, but it is more complicated to say we are better now. There are things happening in our world that are also horrific.

 

[Bear Wild]

History. The druids the old faith and many other things that existed before the Romans arrived and butchered our culture and imposed their disgusting hedonistic culture and alien belief systems upon my ancestors. Filthy Romans...

I agree with you about the Romans. They mastered the colonial culture to take over other people to keep Romans in luxury, destroying the indigenous cultures. I do not understand why they are so idealized by so many people. Seriously their culture adapted to our modern society has wiped out so many indigenous cultures and people. Not a fan of Romans.

 

[Little Dragon]

I agree with you about the Romans. They mastered the colonial culture to take over other people to keep Romans in luxury, destroying the indigenous cultures. I do not understand why they are so idealized by so many people. Seriously their culture adapted to our modern society has wiped out so many indigenous cultures and people. Not a fan of Romans.

They were basically old school imperialists and yes they did give us underfloor heating and very straight roads.
Where is the underfloor heating in my gaffe? Bloody Romans.
We lost a lot of what we were. explains a lot these days. About Northern Europeans.

 

[RestlessSoul]

 

[Little Dragon]

Yes, I do appreciate the irony.
Plus the double irony of a believer showing a clip of The Life of Brian.

 

[Bear Wild]

Finally someone posts a reliable source instead of all the fake news..

 

[RestlessSoul]

Yes, I do appreciate the irony.
Plus the double irony of a believer showing a clip of The Life of Brian.

I’m old enough to have seen The Life of Brian at the cinema when it came out. It seemed to me then to be lampooning the same religious hypocrites Jesus took aim at. I certainly never found it offensive. It hasn’t aged as well as The Holy Grail though.

 

[Little Dragon]

I’m old enough to have seen The Life of Brian at the cinema when it came out. It seemed to me then to be lampooning the same religious hypocrites Jesus took aim at. I certainly never found it offensive. It hasn’t aged as well as The Holy Grail though.

Oh I think the Life of Brian is still relevant.
Evening Centurion..

 

[Augustus]

I find Christian traditions to be utterly alien and definitely not preferable

European culture is has been so thoroughly Christianised that, whether you like it or not, your values have been inescapably formed from these traditions.

I'm an atheist and have never been remotely religious, but we are all products of our culture, and it is pointless to pretend otherwise.

I just find your ugly and wholly anticipated contempt for pre christian religious and culture, obnoxious and condescending, so I felt unnaturally compelled to defend the pagans.

You are projecting your own bitterness onto others.

What I said was you would find these cultures alien, and few would find them preferable.

Personally, I'm not a great fan of modern funerals, but am quite happy there is no rape or human sacrifice involved in them.

I have great respect for historical cultures and see positives and negatives in them all.

What is not respectful is turning them into some cartoon version of what you would like them to be, so you can use them to complain about your lot.

These were generally extreme honour cultures where you would be expected to defend your honour with violence at any point, where might and violence was everything, personal glory and domination and exploitation of the weak were prized, etc.

These were violent and ruthless times, and they bred violent and ruthless cultures.

I would celebrate along with the pagans, when the last English Christian church is rededicated to the old faith.

You would celebrate the reintroduction of human sacrifice rape funerals? Or just some cuddly neo-paganism with minimal connection to the past?

Nice attempt to demonize by the way.

Again, you are projecting your bitterness onto others. I find it fascinating, and all people are a product of their time and environment.

Put a modern European in these societies, and the vast majority would fail miserably.

The fact remains, my (and your) values) better match our society than they do theirs, and many of the things they found admirable, you would find repellant.

Their values are far closer to something like the extreme honour cultures of Pashtun tribesmen than a modern European, which do you prefer?

In fact I could tell you a few stories about the Crusades,

Funny that you paint this as some terrible evil, where the First Crusade would be a most glorious victory to be celebrated throughout the ages in the cultures you are claiming as "your own".

about sweaty priests and choirboys,

These things are considered crimes now, in ancient cultures rape was fine, unless perhaps you raped someone more powerful than you.

Thor and Odin loved a bit of rape, as did Zeus. It was their right of power of course.

You are doing a great job of illustrating how much you would find these cultures alien and how much you find modern culture preferable, just like I said.

The druids the old faith and many other things that existed before the Romans arrived and butchered our culture and imposed their disgusting hedonistic culture and alien belief systems upon my ancestors. Filthy Romans...

What about the society of the druids do you find better in tune with your values than the modern world?

 

[Augustus]

So was the account of this given by the Norse people or from an Arab visitor? I have no doubt there was some truth in it but distortions of the accounts were also very common in reporting back to their people to emphasis the barbaric practices and superiority of their culture. Which of course would never do anything barbaric. Right? Caesar did this in his reports also to help fund his expansion campaign. We know the Romans never did anything barbaric because they were civilized! The catholic church has also always been civilized and never did anything so barbaric. Right?

AFAIK, scholars generally consider it to be at least broadly true, which is sufficient.

That you criticise others for barbaric practices proves my point. They didn't find them barbaric, but admirable.

Caesar was the archetypal great man who would be an aspirational figure for most males in such a society. The man who can kill and enslave his foes and gain personal and tribal glory is praiseworthy.

The Norse and Celtic had things we would consider good and bad, but it is more complicated to say we are better now. There are things happening in our world that are also horrific.

What I said was:

Our culture and traditions are largely Christian.

No doubt pre-Christian traditions would be completely alien to a modern person, and few would find them preferable.

This is a neutral description.

They are alien, and I'm absolutely certain that few would find them preferable.

How do you feel about those funeral rituals? Relatable? Familiar? Something you'd like to see make a return?

People are a product of their time and place. Pretty much all cultures have things that are admirable and things that are objectionable.

I remember watching a programme about a British man in Afghanistan who was arrested, his Afghan guide insisted he must be incarcerated too until the man was freed as he had been his guest and was thus responsible for his well being.

This is the same honour culture than might make the same person kill his sister for being raped or for not wearing a Burkha.

The same Christian evangelical zeal that drove the abolitionist movement that led to the banning of the slave trade drove aspects of colonialism and the desire to Christianise "savages".

How these pagan societies would have developed over time, no one knows, but the fact remains they are completely alien to our modern sensibilities, even though we can try to understand why they had value in their time and place.

Sanitised versions based on our own modern values are not the historical reality though.