Is halloween _pagan

[Augustus]

If paganism, modern, revivalist, sacrifice free, eclipsed christianity in this nation, and rededicated all the churches to this neo pagan faith. I would be pleased, since at last an ancient enemy has been banished from the islands.

Lesser of two evils, basically.

And, based on your own personal, modern values, the lesser of 2 evils between the modern, fairly liberal Church of England and the ancient paganism of human sacrifice and ritual rape would be?

 

[Augustus]

I just think its very interesting that you are so hateful of Christian culture for things like the crusades, but then turn around and idolize Druidism.

It's like when anti-thiests criticise Christianity for "destroying" the culture of classical antiquity which they seem to think was a kind of proto-Secular Humanism rather than an extremely violent, chauvinistic and elitist society based on slavery and contempt for the weak.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

It's like when anti-thiests criticise Christianity for "destroying" the culture of classical antiquity which they seem to think was a kind of proto-Secular Humanism rather than an extremely violent, chauvinistic and elitist society based on slavery and contempt for the weak.

How often does anyone mention that the ancient Greeks considered pederasty to be the ideal sexual partnership.

 

[Little Dragon]

And, based on your own personal, modern values, the lesser of 2 evils between the modern, fairly liberal Church of England and the ancient paganism of human sacrifice and ritual rape would be?

Ancient paganism no longer exists. You're not going to rail road me in this conversation old chap. Keep your hypothetical.
Would I choose between pre enlightenment Christianity (and the hegemony of the Church) or Ancient Paganism? Ask me that...

 

[Little Dragon]

How often does anyone mention that the ancient Greeks considered pederasty to be the ideal sexual partnership.

Perhaps it is. Perhaps your morality is parochial and subjective. Perhaps your cultural viewpoint is just that...a viewpoint. You judge with your modern standards. Which are entirely abstract. Which are entirely divorced from ancient Greece, and it's culture.

 

[Little Dragon]

It's like when anti-thiests criticise Christianity for "destroying" the culture of classical antiquity which they seem to think was a kind of proto-Secular Humanism rather than an extremely violent, chauvinistic and elitist society based on slavery and contempt for the weak.

You don't understand. I don't care how violent it was, not that it was as violent as Christianity, has been throughout history. No. I accept it all the good and the bad and the ugly. It's my history, the culture of my ancestors, our identity. Christianity destroyed much of it. As said, it never will be forgiven, for being an ethnic cleansing doomsday cult of repression control hate and fear. The most comprehensively destructive ideology that has ever existed, imo.

 

[Little Dragon]

It's like when anti-thiests criticise Christianity....

I have so many other things to attack Christianity with. So very many. This topic is but a lesser irrelevance, given what is going on today. I will explain in the coming weeks no doubt.

 

[Augustus]

Ancient paganism no longer exists. You're not going to rail road me in this conversation old chap. Keep your hypothetical.
Would I choose between pre enlightenment Christianity (and the hegemony of the Church) or Ancient Paganism? Ask me that...

Given the initial statement that you objected to was that modern folk would find ancient paganism alien and few would find it preferable, it’s quite clear you actually now agree with me but just don’t want to admit it.

I rest my case.

(We’ll not get started on why there was no “hegemony of the church” in medieval or early modern Christianity)

 

[The Hammer]

I just think its very interesting that you are so hateful of Christian culture for things like the crusades, but then turn around and idolize Druidism.

The Druid hate in this thread is getting a bit much.

We know that ancient beliefs and practices of ALL stripes 3000 years ago would not be things that we would consider societally ok today. But what person reviving the modern ideas and faith of Druidry (or any Indo-European faith?) has advocated bringing back ritual human sacrifice, or slave torture? Even Hinduism stopped that ****, a modern completely unbroken Pagan line from the past.

Christianity (monotheism really) as the modern dominant force: mainly through subjugation, murder of religious and cultural leaders, imperialism and then later on colonialism; is still an issue in parts of the world. Because they can't see "anyone but their God". There is no respect for the plurality of views that makes this world and life possible.

Edited

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The Druid hate in this thread is getting a bit much.

We know that ancient beliefs and practices of ALL stripes 3000 years ago would not be things that we would consider societally ok today. But what person reviving the modern ideas and faith of Druidry has advocated bringing back ritual human sacrifice

You have missed the point. We are dealing with a hypocrite, someone who wants to hate Christianity for the wrongs of its past, but who has another standard for Druidism. My argument with her was not that she should hate Druidism, but that her hatred of Christianity and its cultural influences such as Christmas is irrational.

 

[The Hammer]

You have missed the point. We are dealing with a hypocrite, someone who wants to hate Christianity for the wrongs of its past, but who has another standard for Druidism. My argument with her was not that she should hate Druidism, but that her hatred of Christianity and its cultural influences such as Christmas is irrational.

Please reread my repost. That was an early drop.

There are reasons for the Christianity dislike. I tried to touch on that and why its an issue for many. Also some of us really do long for our indigenous ancestral past, like a Jew longs for his mythic past.

But we were subjugated and had our faith ripped from our hands, and our indigenous faiths pummeled out of the lands we once inhabited. The Jewish people should find this familiar.

Edited

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Reread my repost. That was an early drop.

There are reasons for the Christianity dislike. I tried to touch on that and why its an issue for many. Also some of us really do long for our indigenous ancestral past, like a Jew longs for his mythic past.

But we were subjugated and had our faith ripped from our hands, and our indigenous faiths pummeled out of the lands we once inhabited. The Jewish people should find this familiar.

The history between Jews and Christians is not a pleasant one. However, I do make a distinction between the sort of Christians in the 16th century who wanted to kill everyone they thought was a heretic, and the Christians today, who value freedom of religion.

 

[The Hammer]

the Christians today, who value freedom of religion.

Never happened in the US. It's never been that way.

Up until through the 1900s "taming the savages and making them good Christian men" was why we had Manifest destiny and eventually attempting another indigenous genocide.

 

[The Hammer]

*edit*

Ask the Catholic church? They should have a good answer.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Ask the Catholic church? They should have a good answer.

Last time I checked, the Catholic church taught that pederasty was a sin, even when done by priests.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Never happened in the US. It's never been that way.

Up until through the 1900s "taming the savages and making them good Christian men" was why we had Manifest destiny and eventually attempting another indigenous genocide.

I have never personally known any Christian who did not support freedom of religion, and I've known my fair share of Christians.

 

[Bear Wild]

AFAIK, scholars generally consider it to be at least broadly true, which is sufficient.

That you criticise others for barbaric practices proves my point. They didn't find them barbaric, but admirable.

Caesar was the archetypal great man who would be an aspirational figure for most males in such a society. The man who can kill and enslave his foes and gain personal and tribal glory is praiseworthy.



What I said was:



This is a neutral description.

They are alien, and I'm absolutely certain that few would find them preferable.

How do you feel about those funeral rituals? Relatable? Familiar? Something you'd like to see make a return?

People are a product of their time and place. Pretty much all cultures have things that are admirable and things that are objectionable.

I remember watching a programme about a British man in Afghanistan who was arrested, his Afghan guide insisted he must be incarcerated too until the man was freed as he had been his guest and was thus responsible for his well being.

This is the same honour culture than might make the same person kill his sister for being raped or for not wearing a Burkha.

The same Christian evangelical zeal that drove the abolitionist movement that led to the banning of the slave trade drove aspects of colonialism and the desire to Christianise "savages".

How these pagan societies would have developed over time, no one knows, but the fact remains they are completely alien to our modern sensibilities, even though we can try to understand why they had value in their time and place.

Sanitised versions based on our own modern values are not the historical reality though.

So they believe the average pagan in Norse society had a funeral like this one? Is that what the scholars are saying? This was a funeral for a King. The concept of a king was a relative new invention for the Norse people extending from the bronze age and from the literature I have read influenced by the social order from the south. “Danish prehistory culminated in the Viking Age, the period from 800 until 1050 AD. During the Viking Age the first kings appeared, who ruled an area roughly corresponding to present-day Denmark.”

So all cultures during that time had barbaric practices to modern western taste whether they were pagan, Christian, or Roman of any kind.

Our culture and traditions as you say influenced by Christianity do not reflect my current traditions. There are many Christian traditions I find alien to me. If I had to go back to that time and live either in a pagan Norse culture vs roman culture vs Christian Europe culture which are equally alien to everyone in our modern society I would chose the pagan culture. But now one can do that so it is irrelevant. What I can do is revive a pagan culture based on Norse or Celtic culture of the past adapted to the present. That does not mean I must employ such a funeral rite in our modern society any more than a Christian would import burring witches or genocide on indigenous culture today.

The problem you have is you have no idea of the sophistication and development which as occurred in the pagan communities of today who do not sanitize thing but adapt them as any pre-Christian culture would do to changing times. There is more than enough historical, archeological, comparative anthropologic studies to break the chokehold of the Christian imperialists. Most of the pre-Christian traditions are embodied wisdom and not the schism of transcendental religions so I find the very preferable and ejected the disconnected Christian way of life. I final feel more connected.

 

[The Hammer]

I have never personally known any Christian who did not support freedom of religion, and I've known my fair share of Christians.

You're lucky then.

Remember my post number six here: The Decline

I deal with these kinds of people frequently online and even in real life.

 

[The Hammer]

Last time I checked, the Catholic church taught that pederasty was a sin, even when done by priests.

That's why they just move accused priests instead of getting rid of them.

Tacitly ignoring it is still approval imo.

Almost 1,700 priests and clergy accused of sex abuse are unsupervised

An Associated Press investigation found that those credibly accused are now teachers, coaches, counselors and also live near playgrounds.

www.nbcnews.com

The global scale of child sexual abuse in the Catholic Church

A series of abuse scandals, often involving children, have rocked the Catholic Church in recent decades.

www.aljazeera.com

Maybe they should walk the talk huh?

 

[Bear Wild]

I have never personally known any Christian who did not support freedom of religion, and I've known my fair share of Christians.

When I went to college in South Carolina you would not have said you were pagan without expecting reprisal from the freedom loving Christians. It is changing with time but is still very endemic just not so on the surface. They destroyed a sculpture in Georgia not to recently because it was considered to pagan like.