Is halloween _pagan

[rocala]

I am continually annoyed that so many cannot grasp this simple point.

I find myself in complete agreement with this post by @Glaurung. IMO Pagan/ism has two entirely separate meanings. One is historical the other contemporary. Although the historical can be a great source of inspiration to the contemporary, it is nothing more than that. It is what we celebrate and commemorate that is important.

 

[Augustus]

I've attended several Samhain circles, and while "festival of the dead" is not an entirely accurate description, it is a time where those who have passed are remembered and celebrated, and there are rituals surrounding this.

That said, Samhain is not a day to commemorate Christian martyrs, so it's unclear to me if this day of remembrance inspired All Saints Day, or if the remembrance of loved ones is a spill-back from All Saint's Day's commemoration of Christian Martyrs.

A modern Samhain is largely a modern festival with minimal connection to a historical festival we know very little about.

Nothing wrong with that of course.

But primarily, Samhain marks the final harvest of the year.

It seems to have been a pretty standard feast with sports and drunkenness.

It was one of several more liminal times of year though.

At the end of the day, does it really matter where Halloween came from?

Yes and no.

People can enjoy Halloween as skeletons and witches without any regard for its origins. I certainly didn’t care as a kid.

Often though, these “X is pagan” tropes are about attempts to denigrate and delegitimise Christianity, and using false information to denigrate the traditions of others is problematic imo.

 

[Glaurung]

Often though, these “X is pagan” tropes are about attempts to denigrate and delegitimise Christianity, and using false information to denigrate the traditions of others is problematic imo.

It is ironic too because much of it began as Protestant polemic against Catholic observances. The people who tend to push these claims today would protest the notion that they have been taken in by Puritan talking points.

 

[Bear Wild]

How did the churches back when celabrate

If you are asking is our current modern Halloween is pagan then that depends on how you celebrate it. Secular society certainly celebrates what many consider a fun evening. Christians have celebrated Halloween in their way. But for me Halloween is pagan and one if the most important celebrations of the year. What do we often do on halloween - we wear a costume and shapeshift into another being. We leave out offerings to all of the other beings that stop by your house. wearing a mask and shapeshifting as well as leaving offerings to the other beings of our world is ancient staring long before Christianity came. It is practice in many indigenous cultures around the world (the practice not the holiday). This type of ritual is very consistent with pagan practices.

Halloween takes place at Samhain and is the eve before November 1st and is the starting day of a new Celtic year. The day and he year start at twilight before the morning of that day. So the time of the holiday is consistent with a pagan new year. The Celtic myths attest to the importance of this Holliday for both the gods and pre-Christian people of Ireland. When the Fomorians of the north invaded Ireland at the time of the Tuatha De (Irish gods and goddesses) the Dagda joined in sexual union with the Morrigan to establish sovereignty with the land at the river Unias. This occurred on Samhain/Halloween. He also entered sexual union with the daughter of the chief of the Fomorians and Samhain to establish sovereignty over the land the Fomorians were occupying. This places the time of Halloween as sacred in Celtic pre-Christian religion. In addition the Dagda had a sexual union with Boann (goddess of the Boyne river) on Samhain where they met in Newgrange. The Morrigain enters into our world from the cave Oweynegat also called the eye of the cat with a host of otherworld beings.

In Irish folklore leaving offerings out to the otherworld beings with the veil between the two worlds is at its thnnest to try to appease them is well testified. Kind of like leaving candy of for kids so they do not vandalize you property.

So is Halloween pagan? Absolutely if you practice the pagan rituals associated. If not it can be for anyone.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I got whiplash between the thread title and to OP.

What does paganism have to do with churches?

What is the origin of steeples, the spires that are on top of many churches?

You might be surprised.

 

[SalixIncendium]

What is the origin of steeples, the spires that are on top of many churches?

You might be surprised.

There are a lot of stories from keep out evil spirits, to pointing to Heaven, to guiding parishioners eyes to Heaven.

I'm not sure their origin is truly known.

 

[Augustus]

What is the origin of steeples, the spires that are on top of many churches?

You might be surprised.

“Churches are pagan”

 

[The Hammer]

It has borrowed elements from older pagan traditions, but it is a modern and more Christian twist on the holiday.

I celebrate it typically in November. As the 31st isn't accurate solarly.

 

[Augustus]

There are a lot of stories from keep out evil spirits, to pointing to Heaven, to guiding parishioners eyes to Heaven.

I'm not sure their origin is truly known.

Also aesthetics, “big is important”, better to be seen and heard, etc.

Its mainly a medieval western feature though, so it’s probably not a massive ancient pagan cock…

 

[Bthoth]

How did the churches back when celabrate

Thanks for the thought.

I was picturing fathers dressing up as nuns and vise verse, with a few rogue dressing up as satan.

 

[Bear Wild]

Googling issues like this tends to lead to reading lots of pop culture myths about them that are easy to find on mass market sites.

Move past myths about druids and Irish festivals of the dead and the actual history is somewhat different.

Samhain wasn't a festival of the dead, although end of (agricultural) year/pre-winter is a fairly natural time to think about spirits or death/mortality due to winter being a deadly season in pre-modern times.

Christians have pretty much always celebrated saints and martyrs, and days for all saints moved around the calendar. Samhain is unlikely to be the origin of the current All Saints Day though as the tradition for that date started in the Germanic world, not the Celtic.

Ronald Hutton:

Charlemagne’s favourite churchman Alcuin was keeping [All Saint Day on 1 November by 800 AD], as were also his friend Arno, bishop of Salzburg, and a church in Bavaria. Pope Gregory [IV], therefore, was endorsing and adopting a practice which had begun in northern Europe. It had not, however, started in Ireland, where the Felire of Oengus and the Martyrology of Tallaght prove that the early medieval churches celebrated the feast of All Saints upon 20 April. This makes nonsense of [the] notion that the November date was chosen because of ‘Celtic’ influence

So unless the German Christians were ripping off an Irish festival as a marketing ploy while Irish Christians were completely oblivious as to the plan, Samhain is not the origin.

The answer is the same for all of these “X is pagan” myths, there may be some cultural commonalities as is to be expected, but these are largely overstated and do not equate to pagan origins.

The idea that unless something appeared entirely out of a vacuum then it must be “pagan” is inane.

I agree all saints was not pagan. But Samhain was an important festival time has been supported by much in the folklore, mythology and archeology since Hutton wrote his book. He also clearly states this was an important pre-Christian Celtic festival at least in Ireland. The myths contain multiple stories of people coming in contact with the dead at Samhain. In one myth a warrior is challenged to approach three hanged convicts at night who despite being dead talked to him. He then enters the otherworld to find an army of the slain warriors who are planning to attack their fort. So, Samhain was not so much about honoring the dead as it was about coming in contact with the otherworld. What is clear is the notion of being protected from the beings of the otherworld by wearing disguises and leaving offerings to appease the fairy folk. The symbolism of the Celtic Samhain activities and many of the activities of modern Halloween have much clearer connections than just celebrating the dead saints on November 1st.

What I do not understand so clearly is why they moved all saints day to november 1st in the first place.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Isn’t Halloween considered a holiday? That means “holy day”. (Am I wrong?)

So, what’s holy about it?

Calling something “holy”, gives it a religious tone, having to do with worship.

Worship should be about how to please God, the way He wants, not to please ourselves. To go by His standards, not our own.

Jeremiah 17:9
Isaiah 52:11
James 1:27



Best wishes to all.

 

[Augustus]

I agree all saints was not pagan. But Samhain was an important festival time has been supported by much in the folklore, mythology and archeology since Hutton wrote his book. He also clearly states this was an important pre-Christian Celtic festival at least in Ireland. The myths contain multiple stories of people coming in contact with the dead at Samhain.

We have a harvest festival at one of the more liminal times of the year, and there may be some cultural crossover, but potential mild cultural crossover is quite different from being the origin.

It is also pretty easy to see how a completely (or at least largely) independent tradition could have emerged from the Christian festival and it's seasonal context.

What is clear is the notion of being protected from the beings of the otherworld by wearing disguises and leaving offerings to appease the fairy folk. The symbolism of the Celtic Samhain activities and many of the activities of modern Halloween have much clearer connections than just celebrating the dead saints on November 1st.

Equating traditions like guising ( or later trick or treat) with offerings to the dead seems a bit of a stretch to me.

They emerge too late to represent pagan traditions, and have clear parallels as generic celebrations of festivals at other times of the year.

This is the same with most of these supposedly pagan traditions, there is just too long a gap between their emergence and the earlier decline of paganism.

There is likely some degree of residual cultural influence as nothing emerges from a vacuum, but this is generally indirect and simply one part of a much larger mix.

There are also a lot of odd things in Medieval and early modern Christianity that seem a bit alien to us now, but did have symbolism and meaning back then and reflect their cultural creativity rather than borrowings from an earlier age.

What I do not understand so clearly is why they moved all saints day to november 1st in the first place.

We'll probably never know.

It has to be at some time of the year, but whatever reason it was selected seems not to be connected to Celtic harvest festivities as it seems to be an Anglo-Germanic development.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

There’s a big difference here…

No one argues that using the Latin alphabet makes one a pagan.

Using Latin to speak, or Incorporating Latin in your speech, has nothing to do with worship, does it?

No one claims that an English speaker worships Odin every time they utter the word Wednesday.

Again, saying a day of the week has nothing to do with worship.

So even if a pre-Christian Halloween equivalent existed, that alone does not change the Christian rationnel for Allhallowtide as it actually exists now.

But Halloween is a holiday, ie., “Holy day”, which is tied to worship; and it includes things the God of the Bible abhors.

 

[vulcanlogician]

To the titular question....
Halloween is whatever you want it to be.
To me it's a secular holiday about candy, costumes, & carnage.

And, judging from this picture, a time for a little of the old "in out, in out."

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Christianity became the official religion of Rome in the 4th century AD. This concession by Rome was done to honor the Christian Soldiers of Rome, who were Rome's most fearless in battle.

So… Jesus tells His followers to “love your enemies”(Matthew 5:44), and just a couple hundred years later, Christendom’s leaders are telling their members, “kill your enemy”! Currying favor with the world, huh?
Christianity got hijacked early on.

Easy to see how other teachings became corrupted.
No wonder Jesus prophesied @ Matthew 7:21-23 that he would say: “I never knew you; get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!”

 

[Glaurung]

Using Latin to speak, or Incorporating Latin in your speech, has nothing to do with worship, does it?

The Latin/Roman alphabet refers to a script (writing system) not a language. This post you are reading now is composed using the Latin alphabet. The point is that the cultural accoutrements associated with various Christian holidays no more make those holidays pagan than would the use of the Latin alphabet make a piece of writing pagan. And that is granting the notion that the above-mentioned cultural accoutrements actually have pre-Christian origins. Which is a dubious claim.

Again, saying a day of the week has nothing to do with worship.

It kind of does. Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday each honour a Germanic/Norse deity. (Tyr, Odin, Thor and Freya/Frigg). Saturday honours the Roman deity Saturn. Finally, Sunday and Monday honour the sun and moon respectively.

But Halloween is a holiday, ie., “Holy day”, which is tied to worship; and it includes things the God of the Bible abhors.

Halloween itself is just the eve of All Saints' Day after which follows All Souls' Day. Commemorating the saints and praying for the faithful departed are thoroughly Christian in rationnel. 2 Maccabees 12:46.

You have to separate the Christian observance with the commercialized observance of the secular culture. They are not the same thing. And the idea that God abhors our prayers for the dead is not a claim I accept. Christianity has always taught the goodness and efficaciousness of such prayers. Protestantism is the outlier.

 

[SalixIncendium]

What I do not understand so clearly is why they moved all saints day to november 1st in the first place.

Some believe that Pope Gregory III dedicated an oratory to relics of saints and apostles on November 1. Others believe he held a council to condemn the destruction of holy icons on November 1.

Pope Gregory III (731–741) dedicated an oratory in Old St. Peter's Basilica to the relics "of the holy apostles and of all saints, martyrs and confessors, of all the just made perfect who are at rest throughout the world".[26] Some sources say Gregory III dedicated the oratory on 1 November, and this is why the date became All Saints' Day.[27] Other sources say Gregory III held a synod to condemn iconoclasm on 1 November 731, but he dedicated the All Saints oratory on Palm Sunday, 12 April 732.[28][29][30][31]​

​

All Saints' Day - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

​

For those that don't know, All Saints Day was originally on May 13.

 

[Augustus]

It is ironic too because much of it began as Protestant polemic against Catholic observances. The people who tend to push these claims today would protest the notion that they have been taken in by Puritan talking points.

“Yon Halloween wallows in intemperance and reeketh of the vilest popery…”

 

[Glaurung]

“Yon Halloween wallows in intemperance and reeketh of the vilest popery…”

@Rival Our interlocutor continueth to utter his blasphemies against the true religion. Rage as this heretic may, let us not heed his impotent words. Repent of thine errors, Augustus.