Is hell too harsh?

[Philomath]

Because he was human when he was here on earth he is saying from his human perspective. Listen, Jesus knew all about crucifixion. The Romans would crucify people and place them by the roadsides for everyone to see this gruesome and horrible suffering! In your first example, he is saying Father! Is there any other way we can accomplish the salvation of mankind than having me die that way? But then he says, not my will but yours be done. Thats why Im trying to get people to see that it was a horrible thing for both the Father and Jesus to pay the penalty for all of our sins but because He loved you and me so much, the way He did it was the only way. I dont know of any other god or gods or religious leaders saying they loved you that much! That they were willing to make the ultimate sacrifice in that way just so you could spend all of eternity in heaven! Your second example, again in his human condition certain things were kept from him. Your third example, he is telling them that the doctrine comes from God the Father, again speaking from his human condition. Be very careful not to take scrpiture out of context to make a point according to your disbelief in who Jesus really is!
And your last dig, Jesus infered to the jews what he meant. They knew what he meant. I just agree with Him!
And by the way, "All of us here, and everyone who has lived and is living on this planet at the time of our death is going to know the truth and whether what you believe was actually true or not. Would you agree?" Im asking if you agree with this statement? Do you? I have never heard of your religion "Confused" but Im starting to understand it now.

What your saying makes no sense. Why would Jesus say he's doing his father's will if he is his father? Also none of what your saying is stated in the Bible, once again it is your interpretation of it, rather than what the text is actually saying. This is a wonderful cop out. Sometimes Jesus was was human sometimes he God, this makes zero sense. None of these scriptures were taken out of context. No I don't agree with your statement. My religion said confused because I was unsure of certain things.

 

[Ashoka]

My faith does none of those things. You've obviously confused me with someone else!

I am not accusing you of such things. I am sure you are a very nice person. But your faith, I am sorry, has caused a great deal of a mess in the world. :/ Hell is only a part of it, sadly.

 

[captainbryce]

I am not accusing you of such things. I am sure you are a very nice person. But your faith, I am sorry, has caused a great deal of a mess in the world. :/ Hell is only a part of it, sadly.

My faith is personal to me. It has caused no "mess" in the world. You are accusing others who profess a faith in Christ of doing this. Your problem isn't with my beliefs, it's with the actions of other people.

 

[Ashoka]

My faith is personal to me. It has caused no "mess" in the world. You are accusing others who profess a faith in Christ of doing this. Your problem isn't with my beliefs, it's with the actions of other people.

Well that's just silly. I know there are good Christians, half my friends are Christians for goodness sake. But that doesn't change the fact that wars, violence, the destruction of temples and landmarks, the eradication of entire people, was done in the name of Christianity. It would be off topic for me to list them, so I won't (unless someone wants to start a new topic).

Yahweh is violent. He's not a nice god. I can't get around that. Sorry. Again, my dislike for Yahweh=/=hatred of Christians. I am very critical of Christianity but I do not hate Christians (or anyone for that matter). At the same time, I can't ignore history. Sorry.

 

[Riverwolf]

Okay, well then get back to me when you decide to stop being cryptic and actually answer my question.

It's kind of a funny question, to be honest. After all, if I answered "no", then it would definitively prove Paul wrong.

I believe I know the difference between good and evil, but what I wonder is whether our definitions of "good and evil" match.

1) A wicked person who accepts Jesus would no longer be wicked at that point. In order to truly accept Jesus, one has to repent their sins and be born again. A person who is still wicked does not have this capacity.

2) A person who rejects Christ is by definition NOT GOOD. Nobody is truly "good" in God's eyes. But we become good by accepting our savior who died on our behalf. And I think that is awesome and more moral than anything humans have ever had going for them in our violent history.

Guess not.

 

[Riverwolf]

I am not accusing you of such things. I am sure you are a very nice person. But your faith, I am sorry, has caused a great deal of a mess in the world. :/ Hell is only a part of it, sadly.

Friend, be careful of strawmen. He lists himself as a non-denominational Christian, which means he's not affiliated with the organizations which were the cause of much suffering. In other words, his faith is not their faith.

 

[Ashoka]

Friend, be careful of strawmen. He lists himself as a non-denominational Christian, which means he's not affiliated with the organizations which were the cause of much suffering. In other words, his faith is not their faith.

I suppose that is a good point :/ Again, I did not mean to imply that he was guilty of such heinous acts. If I did, sorry.

 

[Ouroboros]

1) A wicked person who accepts Jesus would no longer be wicked at that point. In order to truly accept Jesus, one has to repent their sins and be born again. A person who is still wicked does not have this capacity.

2) A person who rejects Christ is by definition NOT GOOD. Nobody is truly "good" in God's eyes. But we become good by accepting our savior who died on our behalf. And I think that is awesome and more moral than anything humans have ever had going for them in our violent history.

3-...) A person who doesn't accept nor reject Christ because he/she doesn't know or doesn't believe Christ is real or that there's a need to be saved. And then you have those who find God without Christ, and those who see the mythical aspects of the Christ story and understand the spiritual underlying theme and accept Christ as a symbol rather than a literal person/story. And so on...

 

[captainbryce]

Well that's just silly. I know there are good Christians, half my friends are Christians for goodness sake. But that doesn't change the fact that wars, violence, the destruction of temples and landmarks, the eradication of entire people, was done in the name of Christianity. It would be off topic for me to list them, so I won't (unless someone wants to start a new topic).

You're missing the point. Wars and violence were can be done in the name of ANYTHING. That doesn't mean that there is something wrong with the belief system, only those who perpetuated the violence. There are no violent teachings of Jesus Christ. He is the cornerstone of Christianity. So it doesn't make any sense of you to condemn the belief system based on the actions of radical extremists from centuries ago. Most Christians are not violent, nor do they believe in violence. So there is no logic to your condemnation of the religion. Furthermore, there is no logic in you lumping me in when every other Christian just because I call myself a follower of Christ. You're judging me and my beliefs based on the actions of others.

Yahweh is violent. He's not a nice god. I can't get around that.

Well that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. I think that you are wrong. I also think that Yahweh is the only God and that other gods are false.

Sorry. Again, my dislike for Yahweh=/=hatred of Christians. I am very critical of Christianity but I do not hate Christians (or anyone for that matter). At the same time, I can't ignore history. Sorry.

You don't have to be sorry. Your opinion doesn't injure me. The fact that you choose to single out Christianity based on your hatred of a God that is the basis of two other major world religions is truly astonishing though. Seems very selective to me! Why don't you have a problem with the fact that Islam is a way more violent religion than Christianity, or that it is a religion that actually teaches violence? Why don't you have a problem with the fact that Jews are among the most racist people (as a nation) on the face of the Earth? They both claim to believe in the same God that Christians do, yet you've singled out Christianity, ignoring the fact that it has in fact brought a lot of good into this world. I find that your account of history is indeed very skewed!

 

[captainbryce]

It's kind of a funny question, to be honest. After all, if I answered "no", then it would definitively prove Paul wrong.

I believe I know the difference between good and evil, but what I wonder is whether our definitions of "good and evil" match.

I'll take that as a yes.

 

[Riverwolf]

I'll take that as a yes.

And did you read the rest? It would appear we don't agree on what that difference is.

After all, I don't believe good and evil exist outside human societies.

 

[captainbryce]

3-...) A person who doesn't accept nor reject Christ because he/she doesn't know or doesn't believe Christ is real or that there's a need to be saved. And then you have those who find God without Christ, and those who see the mythical aspects of the Christ story and understand the spiritual underlying theme and accept Christ as a symbol rather than a literal person/story. And so on...

I was addressing a specific question which only addressed two points. It was not intended to be a complete list of all possible scenarios.

 

[captainbryce]

And did you read the rest? It would appear we don't agree on what that difference is.

Why do you say that? How do you define good and/or evil?

After all, I don't believe good and evil exist outside human societies.

I'm not sure how this is relevant.

 

[ChristineES]

I am not accusing you of such things. I am sure you are a very nice person. But your faith, I am sorry, has caused a great deal of a mess in the world. :/ Hell is only a part of it, sadly.

Actually, it hasn't. Some people abused their power in the past, but the faith itself hasn't done harm. It hasn't caused the mess of the world. It is right now being used as a scape goat of some kind of all the troubles of the world.
The problems of the world have numerous causes, but the root cause are humans.

 

[Riverwolf]

Why do you say that? How do you define good and/or evil?

Good is what helps society. Evil is what harms it.

Most people fall somewhere between these in a shade of gray.

 

[Ouroboros]

I was addressing a specific question which only addressed two points. It was not intended to be a complete list of all possible scenarios.

Ah. Fair enough.

 

[captainbryce]

Good is what helps society. Evil is what harms it.

And what indication have I given you that I might define the words differently?

 

[Riverwolf]

And what indication have I given you that I might define the words differently?

These:

1) A wicked person who accepts Jesus would no longer be wicked at that point.

2) A person who rejects Christ is by definition NOT GOOD.

I vehemently disagree with both these points. I believe that goodness has absolutely nothing to do with this or that deity. I could replace Jesus with Baldur in your posts and it would mean exactly as much.

 

[captainbryce]

I vehemently disagree with both these points. I believe that goodness has absolutely nothing to do with this or that deity. I could replace Jesus with Baldur in your posts and it would mean exactly as much.

Well, I think that goodness has everything to do with God, and that it comes from God (as the bible says). I also believe that he makes what is good self evident to everyone of sound mind. And that the people who choose to do evil, ultimately go against God.

Why do you think that someone who accepts Jesus could still be wicked?

 

[Riverwolf]

Well, I think that goodness has everything to do with God, and that it comes from God (as the bible says). I also believe that he makes what is good self evident to everyone of sound mind. And that the people who choose to do evil, ultimately go against God.

And I don't. I believe that morality is entirely a human concept, and exists to serve our relationships to one another.

Why do you think that someone who accepts Jesus could still be wicked?

I direct you to all the Christians who did, and still do, plenty of evil things in the name of Christ. They accepted Jesus, all right, yet were still capable of evil.