Is hell too harsh?

[Rapture Era]

What your saying makes no sense. Why would Jesus say he's doing his father's will if he is his father? Also none of what your saying is stated in the Bible, once again it is your interpretation of it, rather than what the text is actually saying. This is a wonderful cop out. Sometimes Jesus was was human sometimes he God, this makes zero sense. None of these scriptures were taken out of context. No I don't agree with your statement. My religion said confused because I was unsure of certain things.

What isnt making sense? Jesus never said he was the father
You dont understand the Godhead. God is three persons (trinity) Father, Son and Holy Spirit. What specifically is not in the bible you would like to see?

 

[Rapture Era]

You're missing the point. Wars and violence were can be done in the name of ANYTHING. That doesn't mean that there is something wrong with the belief system, only those who perpetuated the violence. There are no violent teachings of Jesus Christ. He is the cornerstone of Christianity. So it doesn't make any sense of you to condemn the belief system based on the actions of radical extremists from centuries ago. Most Christians are not violent, nor do they believe in violence. So there is no logic to your condemnation of the religion. Furthermore, there is no logic in you lumping me in when every other Christian just because I call myself a follower of Christ. You're judging me and my beliefs based on the actions of others.
I totally agree!

Well that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. I think that you are wrong. I also think that Yahweh is the only God and that other gods are false.
Here are just a couple of many supporting scriptures;
Deuteronomy 5:7
"You shall have no other gods before me.

Deuteronomy 6:14
Do not follow other gods, the gods of the peoples around you;

2 Kings 17:35
When the LORD made a covenant with the Israelites, he commanded them: "Do not worship any other gods or bow down to them, serve them or sacrifice to them.

You don't have to be sorry. Your opinion doesn't injure me. The fact that you choose to single out Christianity based on your hatred of a God that is the basis of two other major world religions is truly astonishing though. Seems very selective to me! Why don't you have a problem with the fact that Islam is a way more violent religion than Christianity, or that it is a religion that actually teaches violence? Why don't you have a problem with the fact that Jews are among the most racist people (as a nation) on the face of the Earth? They both claim to believe in the same God that Christians do, yet you've singled out Christianity, ignoring the fact that it has in fact brought a lot of good into this world. I find that your account of history is indeed very skewed!

Well said

 

[Rapture Era]

And then he got better.
Better?

The nature of sacrifice is that you don't get back what you sacrificed.

Unless you are the true and living God!:yes:

 

[Rapture Era]

Ted Bundy claimed to have repeated the night before his execution.

Claimed! God knows the heart. You cant fool him!:no:

 

[Rapture Era]

[/i]

You keep saying that while every time not explaining exactly HOW it is a choice.
Let me try this another way, did you know that you dont have to pay taxes? You can choose not to pay. Thats a choice. You will however eventually get caught and have to deal with the consequences. But, its your choice whether you want to do it or not.
I don’t think so. How am I supposed to be able to exercise my free will when it’s being usurped?
By exercising your free will to say yes or no. Doesnt get any simlper than that, whats not to understand? If you cant grab this concept of choice and choices in your life, I dont know what to tell you.
If I’m not being coerced, I don’t see how it’s comparable.

And in the traffic law example, I can probably understand the reasoning behind it. I have to wear a seatbelt because when people don’t wear seatbelts and get into accidents, they usually end up dead. If I have to signal 100 yards before my turn, it’s probably so the guy behind knows what I’m doing and has time to make his own decisions about where he’s going to go. I can’t really understand the reasoning behind “believe in me and do what I say or face eternal punishment.”
What Im trying to get across to you is that with laws and rules that we live by every day, these laws and rules are saying to us, "do what I say or face the punishment" as you mentioned, and we dont have a problem with it. Well, we might have a problem but it doesnt matter because we didnt make up the rules or laws. We accept that we have to live by them whether we like them or not. Thats all Im trying to say.

By locking them in the basement (hell) forever when they disobey his commands.
See above statement.

I have no idea how a thing I don’t think exists treats you. But according to what we’re all talking about here, I suppose he sends you to heaven as a reward for your blind obedience.
Its called faith! And you are right, you have no idea how He treats me and what He has done in my life!
He’s god. He should be able to do anything. That includes snapping his fingers (or whatever he has) and making everything right. Yet that never happens. Why do you suppose a blood sacrifice was the ONLY way all the wrong could be righted? That seems kinda sick to me.
Here is where people really go wrong because they dont understand Gods omnipotence. The word Omnipotence. Omni=Great, Potence/Potencey= Power.
Lets list a couple things God cant do.
1. Can God tell a lie? NO
2. Can God draw a tri-angle on a flat surface not to equal 180 degrees? NO
3. Can God make 2+2=5? NO
4. Can God abolish himself? NO
5. Can God make a stone so heavy that He coudlnt lift it? Correct answer? NO
Why? Because there is no stone God cant lift! So since there is no stone God cant lift, OBVIOUSLY God cant make a stone so heavy He couldnt lift it. Its not the reputaion of His omnipotence its the result of it.Omnipotence doesnt mean God can do nonsense. Omnipotence doesnt mean God can abolish contradictions, that God can literally take a married guy and turn him into a bachelor. The point here being that omnipotence I think is not that God can do anything, its that God has unlimited power. And unlimited power means that you can do whatever is possible, and have unlimited power to do it. Could He change the speed of light? Yes. Could He change the speed of gravity? Yes. But if He did that, you would have a different result on the other end. It wouldnt be the world we know and how things work with the laws we have.

I don’t see how spending a couple of days on earth (a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things) and being crucified really amounts to that much of a sacrifice. He didn’t give anything up. He’s still god, he still gets to exist for eternity and rule over the world. For all you know, he didn’t feel a thing – he is god, after all. What is it that he actually gave up?
Couple of days? About 31 years. In the grand scheme of eternity, yes, even a 1,000 years is but a vapor. Oh my gosh, here we go again! As a human being, do you think that you wouldnt feel having your back ripped open with a whip with shards? How about being beaten so badly that people woudnt recognize you? How about being nailed to a cross and and suffering this agony for about 6 hours? Are you for real? What do you mean didnt feel a thing? Dude! Common!

I don’t believe in your god, I don’t see that he’s sacrificed much of anything and I see nothing loving about the god of the Bible. So, no.

WOW! Well, there you have it. It doesnt matter what anyone says to try and help you understand or answer your questions? This last statement says it all.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Let me try this another way, did you know that you dont have to pay taxes? You can choose not to pay. Thats a choice. You will however eventually get caught and have to deal with the consequences. But, its your choice whether you want to do it or not.

Paying taxes is something that makes actual sense, that has some rationale behind it. If I pay taxes, in return I get roads, health care, sewers, fire and police services, etc. I can pay taxes and understand that in return I receive all of these services, I can choose to not pay taxes and still receive all these things at the risk of being caught (and it’s possible that I would never be caught), or I can move somewhere that I do not have to pay taxes. I can think through all of these opinions and make a reasonable choice. If I do not pay taxes and get caught, I do not spend eternity burning in a lake of fire.

By exercising your free will to say yes or no. Doesnt get any simlper than that, whats not to understand? If you cant grab this concept of choice and choices in your life, I dont know what to tell you.

I think it’s you who is not grasping something here. By definition, free will means that I have the power to act at my own discretion, unconstrained by necessity or fate. How am I able to do that with a gun held to my head? There is no reasonable choice. I have to do what I am told or face eternal punishment.

If I tell the gun man I don’t want to give him my wallet, am I then choosing to commit suicide? Or is the gunman exercising his free will to shoot me if he wants to? As I see it, I do not have any free will in such a situation. The gun man does, but I do not.

What Im trying to get across to you is that with laws and rules that we live by every day, these laws and rules are saying to us, "do what I say or face the punishment" as you mentioned, and we dont have a problem with it. Well, we might have a problem but it doesnt matter because we didnt make up the rules or laws. We accept that we have to live by them whether we like them or not. Thats all Im trying to say.

I see what it is you are trying to get across to me, but I don’t see it as the same thing. The laws and rules we have created within society are (in most cases) reasonable and practical, and they are something we all agree to adhere to, given that we want to live as harmoniously and peacefully as possible with each other. The consequences of none of our laws and rules are eternal punishment in hell. And if we don’t agree with society’s laws or think there should be new ones, we have ways of challenging existing laws and/or creating new ones (e.g. civil rights movement, suffrage). I think that last part is one of the major differences here.

See above statement.

Do you think it’s reasonable to lock your kid in the basement for their entire lives if they disobey you?

Its called faith! And you are right, you have no idea how He treats me and what He has done in my life!

Call it whatever you like. I’m not into blind obedience. I prefer reason, logic and practicality.

Here is where people really go wrong because they dont understand Gods omnipotence. The word Omnipotence. Omni=Great, Potence/Potencey= Power.
Lets list a couple things God cant do.
1. Can God tell a lie? NO
2. Can God draw a tri-angle on a flat surface not to equal 180 degrees? NO
3. Can God make 2+2=5? NO
4. Can God abolish himself? NO
5. Can God make a stone so heavy that He coudlnt lift it? Correct answer? NO
Why? Because there is no stone God cant lift! So since there is no stone God cant lift, OBVIOUSLY God cant make a stone so heavy He couldnt lift it. Its not the reputaion of His omnipotence its the result of it.Omnipotence doesnt mean God can do nonsense. Omnipotence doesnt mean God can abolish contradictions, that God can literally take a married guy and turn him into a bachelor. The point here being that omnipotence I think is not that God can do anything, its that God has unlimited power. And unlimited power means that you can do whatever is possible, and have unlimited power to do it. Could He change the speed of light? Yes. Could He change the speed of gravity? Yes. But if He did that, you would have a different result on the other end. It wouldnt be the world we know and how things work with the laws we have.

I don’t care if your god can make a rock so big that he can’t lift it. I want to know why he created evil but won’t eradicate the world of it in the simplest way possible.

What’s nonsensical about ending all the suffering in the world in the simplest way possible? I’m not asking god to make a married man single or lift a giant rock or other such petty nonsense. I’m wondering why it’s so difficult for him to end the suffering in the world without all this bumbling and stumbling around. I mean, he messed up by putting the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden in the first place, then he tried to fix everything with a global flood, but that didn’t work either, so then he had to send himself as his son, to sacrifice himself to himself in order to appease himself of the sins of mankind which he had a hand in creating in the first place. None of it makes any sense. Why is it so difficult for this supposed omnipotent creator to get anything right? But humans are supposed to be the ones messing everything up??

So again, I have to ask, Why do you suppose a blood sacrifice was the ONLY way all the wrong could be righted?

Couple of days? About 31 years. In the grand scheme of eternity, yes, even a 1,000 years is but a vapor.

Okay. So like I said, it’s just a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of eternity. What has he actually sacrificed? What did he give up?

Oh my gosh, here we go again!As a human being, do you think that you wouldnt feel having your back ripped open with a whip with shards? How about being beaten so badly that people woudnt recognize you? How about being nailed to a cross and and suffering this agony for about 6 hours? Are you for real? What do you mean didnt feel a thing?Dude! Common!

Umm, god is not a human.

WOW! Well, there you have it. It doesnt matter what anyone says to try and help you understand or answer your questions? This last statement says it all.

I used to be a Christian, I’ve been through all this many times before and it’s part of the reason I’m not a Christian anymore. I thank you for attempting to explain it from your point of view, but just because you have done so, doesn’t mean I’m obligated to accept it. Yours is far from the only point of view on this. I’d rather stick with reason and things that are demonstrably true.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Claimed! God knows the heart. You cant fool him!:no:

Okay, so let's say he was actually saved. That means a serial killer got into heaven.

 

[William Patrick]

But God made us all in "his image" and "knows us before birth" so allowing a creation you know to exist to be predisposed to go to hell and to allow it to happen is NOT free will. I would consider cruel and unusual punishment.

"I made you who you are, and you will suffer forever for it!" Doesn't sound like free will, or a loving logical intelligent being I would call God. Sounds more like a child, a very mean aggressive child that has a tendency to burn ants just because they are small.

I think I agree with you that eternal punishment is not warranted for a limited existence.I tend to believe that hell is actually the death of the soul. Paul writes that the wages of sin is death. It is not physical death that he is talking about because we all die. It is obviously the death of the soul. Eternal life is a gift of God and is entirely up to him just as our current existence was a gift of God. According to Jesus eternal life is obtainable by following the commandments and believing in the teachings of Jesus. By his death we are forgiven provided we dedicate our lives to him. Moral Perfection for most human beings is unachievable so we must continue to try to overcome the world the flesh and the devil. Jesus will rescue us to eternal iife.

 

[Sunstone]

What gives god the right to put people into eternal suffering for not being "perfect"? Doesn't this seem a little unfair? How is god justified in letting his own creation suffer forever? If there is a heaven with this kind of god, hell is the place for me. How can he expect people to enjoy heaven when there are people who will burn forever because of the god the worship?

Just think of all the American politicians you would find in heaven, for almost every last one of them claims to be saved. Indeed, there must be so many of them in heaven that if you were fool enough to go there yourself, you would almost certainly be assigned a pew located right behind a whole bevy of the *****. And then, how would you feel about spending an eternity praising God while smelling their farts?

 

[ChristineES]

Just think of all the American politicians you would find in heaven, for almost every last one of them claims to be saved. Indeed, there must be so many of them in heaven that if you were fool enough to go there yourself, you would almost certainly be assigned a pew located right behind a whole bevy of the *****. And then, how would you feel about spending an eternity praising God while smelling their farts?

Keep in mind that just because a person claims that he/she is saved, doesn't mean that he/she truly is; it;s not my job to judge them. It is easier to day you follow Jesus, a lot harder to actually live it.

 

[Riverwolf]

Better?

Yup. For God, it went right back to status quo with him and Jesus being perfectly fine and hunky-dory.

Unless you are the true and living God!:yes:

Then it's not a sacrifice.

 

[Titanic]

Claimed! God knows the heart. You cant fool him!:no:

Well what if He did repent?

 

[ChristineES]

Well what if He did repent?

There is a chance of that.

 

[Philomath]

What isnt making sense? Jesus never said he was the father
You dont understand the Godhead. God is three persons (trinity) Father, Son and Holy Spirit. What specifically is not in the bible you would like to see?

There is no mention of the Trinity in the Bible

 

[Rapture Era]

Paying taxes is something that makes actual sense, that has some rationale behind it. If I pay taxes, in return I get roads, health care, sewers, fire and police services, etc. I can pay taxes and understand that in return I receive all of these services, I can choose to not pay taxes and still receive all these things at the risk of being caught (and it’s possible that I would never be caught), or I can move somewhere that I do not have to pay taxes. I can think through all of these opinions and make a reasonable choice. If I do not pay taxes and get caught, I do not spend eternity burning in a lake of fire.


I think it’s you who is not grasping something here. By definition, free will means that I have the power to act at my own discretion, unconstrained by necessity or fate. How am I able to do that with a gun held to my head? There is no reasonable choice. I have to do what I am told or face eternal punishment.

If I tell the gun man I don’t want to give him my wallet, am I then choosing to commit suicide? Or is the gunman exercising his free will to shoot me if he wants to? As I see it, I do not have any free will in such a situation. The gun man does, but I do not.



I see what it is you are trying to get across to me, but I don’t see it as the same thing. The laws and rules we have created within society are (in most cases) reasonable and practical, and they are something we all agree to adhere to, given that we want to live as harmoniously and peacefully as possible with each other. The consequences of none of our laws and rules are eternal punishment in hell. And if we don’t agree with society’s laws or think there should be new ones, we have ways of challenging existing laws and/or creating new ones (e.g. civil rights movement, suffrage). I think that last part is one of the major differences here.


Do you think it’s reasonable to lock your kid in the basement for their entire lives if they disobey you?



Call it whatever you like. I’m not into blind obedience. I prefer reason, logic and practicality.


I don’t care if your god can make a rock so big that he can’t lift it. I want to know why he created evil but won’t eradicate the world of it in the simplest way possible.

What’s nonsensical about ending all the suffering in the world in the simplest way possible? I’m not asking god to make a married man single or lift a giant rock or other such petty nonsense. I’m wondering why it’s so difficult for him to end the suffering in the world without all this bumbling and stumbling around. I mean, he messed up by putting the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden in the first place, then he tried to fix everything with a global flood, but that didn’t work either, so then he had to send himself as his son, to sacrifice himself to himself in order to appease himself of the sins of mankind which he had a hand in creating in the first place. None of it makes any sense. Why is it so difficult for this supposed omnipotent creator to get anything right? But humans are supposed to be the ones messing everything up??

So again, I have to ask, Why do you suppose a blood sacrifice was the ONLY way all the wrong could be righted?



Okay. So like I said, it’s just a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of eternity. What has he actually sacrificed? What did he give up?


Umm, god is not a human.



I used to be a Christian, I’ve been through all this many times before and it’s part of the reason I’m not a Christian anymore. I thank you for attempting to explain it from your point of view, but just because you have done so, doesn’t mean I’m obligated to accept it. Yours is far from the only point of view on this. I’d rather stick with reason and things that are demonstrably true.

Im not going bother further on your comments above because if you were a Christian like you say, you understand what Im saying. You have heard it over and over again. If you choose not to accept any of it, that is your right and I say good for you! Go full throttle in that direction! Just curious though, what kind of Christian were you? Was it denominational? There are so many people with so many different beliefs that call themselves Christians. Oh, BTW, your question about why Jesus had to shed his blood? Its an easy search, but being a Christian you should already know the answer to this one.

 

[Rapture Era]

There is no mention of the Trinity in the Bible

No there isnt.

 

[Ashoka]

No there isnt.

Right. It came up at the Council of Nicea. I personally don't see why so many people have a problem with it not being in the Bible. But then, I didn't grow up in a Sola Scriptura house, so that might be why

 

[SkepticThinker]

Im not going bother further on your comments above because if you were a Christian like you say, you understand what Im saying. You have heard it over and over again. If you choose not to accept any of it, that is your right and I say good for you! Go full throttle in that direction! Just curious though, what kind of Christian were you? Was it denominational? There are so many people with so many different beliefs that call themselves Christians. Oh, BTW, your question about why Jesus had to shed his blood? Its an easy search, but being a Christian you should already know the answer to this one.

Hey, if you wanna just brush me off, that's your choice.

 

[ZooGirl02]

I believe that Hell is definitely just. For one thing, I do believe that each damned person's punishment in Hell is directly proportional to the sins they committed on earth. God isn't going to punish anyone in Hell more than they deserve.

 

[Riverwolf]

I believe that Hell is definitely just. For one thing, I do believe that each damned person's punishment in Hell is directly proportional to the sins they committed on earth. God isn't going to punish anyone in Hell more than they deserve.

Is Dante's cosmology pretty much the Catholic Church's stance?

'Cause if so, I'm pretty much doomed to Limbo, anyway, and that's perfectly fine with me. :yes: