Hahaha. That's certainly one way to put it, especially going off the personality of Yahweh and his most devoted fans.
The mind is its own place, and in itself can make a heaven of hell, a hell of heaven..
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Is hell too harsh?
- Thread starter Brynhild
- Start date
Hahaha. That's certainly one way to put it, especially going off the personality of Yahweh and his most devoted fans.
The mind is its own place, and in itself can make a heaven of hell, a hell of heaven..
Enai de a lukal
Well-Known Member
The problem for such Christians is reconciling this view with passages in the NT, particularly the Gospel of John, but also the overall theological narrative pertaining to Christ's life and death; without hell, what was the point? And what do all the passages which at least seem to be talking about hell actually mean?
FranklinMichaelV.3
Well-Known Member
The life part can be seen as "a model way to live"
The death part of course has become more important. Paul for instances spends more time (as I know anyway) talking about Jesus's death and sacrifice rather than Jesus's life. I personally find the Journey mroe interesting than the final act.
Of course Christians (like myself) who do not hold the idea of hell also don't take the bible as infallible or inerrant. I take it to be more of people trying to understand why the things around them happen.
I didn't say otherwise. I am just stating that we are not saved by them, that we will do them if we are truly following God.
captainbryce
Active Member
Except that's not what it says! It says that just because someone CLAIMS to be a Christian, and do things "in the name of Christ" doesn't mean they are actually following Christ's example. You cannot blame the teachings of Christ on individual's who claim Christianity, yet do the opposite of what he teaches!
captainbryce
Active Member
You're point does NOT stand because your point was a red-herring. You originally stated this: "I direct you to all the Christians who did, and still do, plenty of evil things in the name of Christ. They accepted Jesus, all right, yet were still capable of evil" - This was obviously an attempt to call attention to the fact that being "Christian" doesn't make someone good by pointing out the fact that "Christians" often do bad things. The problem with your logic is that Jesus' words in Matthew 7 invalidate that as a possible argument against Christianity. He specifically makes it a point to tell us that these people are in fact NOT true Christians because they aren't doing his word. A true Christian WOULD do good, by virtue of the fact that they are following the example of Christ.
And by the way, doing good deeds, doesn't make someone "good" either. No man is truly good because we have a sinful nature. This includes Christians! If we were truly good, we wouldn't need a savior, but we do! That's why Christ is our redeemer.
captainbryce
Active Member
:clapAbout that verse in Matthew. If someone calls himself or herself a Christian, yet is mean-spirited, condemns others, doesn't show mercy, etc., then that person doesn't appear to follow Jesus' commands. It's not to say that the works save us, it is to say that those who are Christians do the works because they want to.
Thank you. Someone get's it! :yes:
captainbryce
Active Member
WRONG! First of all, works is not all that Jesus commanded people to do. Jesus first and foremost commanded us to love God and love one another. In fact, those are the most important commandments in the bible.
Mark 12:28-31
28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?” 29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”
Secondly, you are correct in that works express our faith in Christ (ie: if a person professes a belief but does not express that belief in action, then how much faith can they really have?). And that's what James 2 is saying about "Faith without works is dead". But the scripture is also very careful to stress to us that it isn't the works themselves that actually save us, but the faith.
Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
Acts 2:21; Romans 10:13; Joel 2:32
For "Everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved."
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
I could point out any number of scriptures to back up this position, but let me just ask you a hypothetical situation (to examine this from the standpoint of logic):
Let's say you have a man who was struck down by a vehicle, is paralyzed in the hospitable, and who's prospect for recovery is very low. He expresses a belief in Christ as his savior, but due to his debilitating and deteriorating condition, he is unable to perform any "works" or "deeds" for other people. He then dies! Is that person saved as John 3:16 and the other scriptures pointed out seem to suggest, or is he doomed because he did no "good works"?
Better yet, let's look at an actual "biblical" example (the thief on the cross):
Luke 23-43
39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!” 40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." 43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
Now, the only thing we know about these criminals is that they were CRIMINALS. There is no indication that they ever did any "good works" in the name of Christ. In fact, we can assume they did not just based on what the one criminal states about their actual deeds. So, tell me...did the one criminal get saved (as Jesus seemed to suggest), or was Jesus lying about him being in paradise due to lack of good works?
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captainbryce
Active Member
There is no "reconciliation" necessary with that view as far as I'm concerned. The view that "hell" represents annihilation is perfectly consistent with scripture. By contrast, the idea that their is eternal torment (literally) is not consistent with scripture, and thus requires reconciliation!
Give me a specific example, and I'd be happy to break it down for you!
I'm not.
I'm saying that these people believe they've accepted Christ just as strongly as you do.
Most truly believe they are.
And I don't believe we do have a sinful nature or need a redeemer. I very much fall in the "nurture" side of the nature vs nurture debate. Doing good deeds makes someone good just by definition of what good is, unless you have a different definition of good.
FranklinMichaelV.3
Well-Known Member
Love is a work. Asking for forgiveness is a work. Also One criminal mentioned in one gospel but not in the others...right. Quoting Paul who never met Jesus doesn't help your cause. Faith without works is useless just as works are done through faith.
You can yell wrong all you want but it's just laziness on your part to assume that your faith is all it will take.
Notice that those who came calling lord lord, were not christians, why? Because Christians didn't exist at that point. Jesus turned them away for being wicked i.e. those who did not follow the Law.
captainbryce
Active Member
A) We don't know what they believed, only what they claimed!
B) It doesn't matter what they believed if there beliefs about Christ were wrong.
Actions speak louder than words, and if your actions show that you are not following Christ, then you are not a true believer!
Matthew 7:15-16
15 Beware of false prophets who come disguised as harmless sheep but are really vicious wolves. 16 You can identify them by their fruit, that is, by the way they act.
1 John 4:1
Dear friends, do not believe everyone who claims to speak by the Spirit. You must test them to see if the spirit they have comes from God. For there are many false prophets in the world.
captainbryce
Active Member
Most are also IGNORANT. It doesn't matter what "most" believe, it only matters what Christ said about how to identify them. If you follow that example, then these people were not true Christians. And this is irrespective of what "most" believe about them. The bible often indicates that most people are wrong!
Then the statement about a person accepting Christ automatically being good is wrong. After all, while Olaf the Lawbreaker probably never read a Bible in his whole life, people do have access to it these days and do read the Bible. They've read those parts that you're talking about. Yet they find parts elsewhere that justify their actions.
Personally, when I read, I found that Jesus was teaching to live homeless and bare bones, and that such living was required to follow him. He, after all, was homeless.
People who accept Jesus also have to repent of their sins. We can't accept Jesus and then turn around and do the same things as before. A lot of people of my faith miss this. I don't really believe that Jesus was teaching us to be homeless but we do have to do what Jesus commanded about charity and things of that nature.
Well, that's just the impression I got.
I'm not refuting the fact that actual deeds are important as well; in fact, I argue in favor of that. I'm refuting a statement made earlier that acceptance makes one good by default.
captainbryce
Active Member
No, love is NOT a "work", it is an emotion. A work is a "good deed", and the bible actually differentiates between the two.
Hebrews 10:24
And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love AND good deeds.
Donating money to a children's charity is a work. Volunteering at a soup kitchen is a work. Building a homes for the homeless is a work. "Loving" something is not a work! Anyone can have love for anything (good or bad). Someone can love children, but do absolutely nothing to benefit them! People can love money, cars, sex, alcohol and drugs, but these are obviously not "works" just because someone has expressed a "love" for them.
Asking for forgiveness is not a work, but an act of repentance. This is not something that benefits someone else, it is a requirement for your own salvation. Thus is it is not a "work" or good deed!
You're point?
You might as well say that Christians should ignore most of the New Testament and anything written by the Apostle Paul because he was a man who was not inspired by God. Unfortunately (for your case) Christians generally consider Paul to be as much a prophet of God as OT prophets and all of Jesus' disciples. Whether he actually met Jesus or not is irrelevant if he was in fact inspired by God to speak on his behalf.
I already agreed with that point. But this is irrelevant to salvation. Salvation is through faith, NOT WORKS (because that's what the bible says). Only if you reject much of the NT and all of the Apostle Paul's text can you make this argument. But that would not be consistent with the doctrines of any Christian denomination.
It's not a matter of "laziness", it's a matter of what God's word says! If you choose to reject God's word because you don't believe that Paul was an apostle of Christ, that's your business. But that is not my position, nor is it the position of any Christian denomination that I'm aware of. There is a very specific reason why good deeds do not get you into heaven, so that we cannot boast! Salvation is a gift from God, and if you believe that you need good works to get you into heaven, then you lack faith in Christ and are no better than the Jews who reject him. It's essentially the same argument they made about whether or not we have to be circumcised (as required by Jewish law). Following the law doesn't get you salvation and neither do good works. It is faith in Christ alone that saves!
If not, then what is your answer to my previous question about the crippled, dying man who professes faith in Christ? Apparently, in addition to rejecting Paul as an Apostle, you also reject the Gospel of Luke.
Christians DID exist at that point. The original disciples were Christians!
captainbryce
Active Member
When I say "accept Christ" I also mean do what he says. So in the interest of clarity, let me rephrase it for you: A person who actually follows Christ's example is doing "good", while a person who does not follow the example of Christ is not doing good (regardless of what/who they claim to believe in). Fair enough?
I cannot speak to how other people justify their actions. I can only speak to how I justify my own actions according to scripture, and whether or not someone else's actions seems justifiable based on that scripture. It isn't for me to judge anyone else, that's for Christ to do. My point is, if you see someone doing what you clearly understand to be evil, it doesn't matter that they claim to believe in Christ because their actions demonstrate otherwise. That's what Christ says!
I wouldn't say that he was homeless, I'd say that he was more of a missionary. Similar to how Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormon's go door to door spreading the Gospel. Jesus choose to go out and interact with the world and share the good news with his neighbors who were willing to receive his message. And yes, that is arguably what we should do too. That doesn't mean we should sell our homes and live bare bones. In our society today, we wouldn't get very far spreading the Gospel if we did that. But it does serve as an example that we shouldn't strive for riches and wealth, and that we shouldn't be "lazy" and just sit around living for ourselves. We should be out doing the work of Christ!
When I say "accept Christ" I also mean do what he says. So in the interest of clarity, let me rephrase it for you: A person who actually follows Christ's example is doing "good", while a person who does not follow the example of Christ is not doing good (regardless of what/who they claim to believe in). Fair enough?
Much better. And in the future, I shall try to keep that in mind when you're talking.
However, it still indicates that a person who, through deeds, follows Christ, but with words, claims to not believe in him, must be regarded as good.
True, enough. My own interpretations of the Gospels shouldn't be regarded as, well, gospel, by actual Christians. :no: