Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
A smart God would build many heavens. Just put everyone in different rooms. It's not like God is running out of space. If he needs space, he can create it from nothing... so there.
God is looking into your heart. I dont know how deeply you really want to know. God does however. The answer may not come as a Big Revelation, it may come as a soft voice. You may not get your answer in 5min either. Only you know deep down whether this is something you really want. Not just some flash in the sky. Its personal only to you. No one here needs to know, only you. I prayed for you too
God is looking into your heart. I dont know how deeply you really want to know. God does however. The answer may not come as a Big Revelation, it may come as a soft voice. You may not get your answer in 5min either. Only you know deep down whether this is something you really want. Not just some flash in the sky. Its personal only to you. No one here needs to know, only you. I prayed for you too
I hope "Now let's wait and see what revelation I get" wasnt said in a condescending way.
I lost count how many have prayed for me and my family over the years. We even have a letter from Bill Clinton where he says he's praying for my family. LOL! (Back from the 90's, of course)
Well, if I wanted to stay out of hell and didnt know which hell I wanted to stay out of? I would at least pray to God and say, "look God, I dont know which god or which hell is real. I dont even know if you are real, but I want to seek you for my salvation. I need for you to reveal yourself to me, because I really need to know!" And if you are really serious to the bottom of your core? I believe the true and living God will show you, will speak to you, will reveal Himself to you.
And what if God brings one to the conclusion that 'hell' was never part of the equation? Who is to say that those who are convinced there is no endless torment in hell aren't serious to the bottom of their core? What if the only thing mankind ever stood in need of being saved from is the notion that he needed saving in the first place?Well, if I wanted to stay out of hell and didnt know which hell I wanted to stay out of? I would at least pray to God and say, "look God, I dont know which god or which hell is real. I dont even know if you are real, but I want to seek you for my salvation. I need for you to reveal yourself to me, because I really need to know!" And if you are really serious to the bottom of your core? I believe the true and living God will show you, will speak to you, will reveal Himself to you.
That would certainly bring a whole new meaning to the verse from the bible that says Be it unto you according to your faith. If one's faith includes hell, perhaps it will be unto them accordingly. A sobering thought, and all the more reason not to include hell in my spiritual outlook!
Having lived most of my life with a belief in endless torment, I can answer that one. For one thing, it drove people around me crazy because I always felt I had to get them to believe what I do in order to be saved. Then there's living with the idea that most of mankind, including one's loved ones, will likely end up tormented endlessly. Then, even if assurance of salvation happens to be settled in your own mind, along comes some preacher whose particular perspective brings all of that into question (i.e., the Lordship salvationists). There's also the effect that believing in a god who would commit such atrocities has on adherents i.e., if it's okay for god to be that cruel, then we can be that cruel too, if it's for a 'good' cause hence the Inquisition, Crusades, and other violent religious conquests in order to win people over to the 'kingdom'.
Yes (as Jesus was). But they were also "Christians" because they were followers of Christ. :yes:
I'm aware of this fact. Relevance?
We'll have to agree to disagree on this point.
I agree. And those "things" may very well be works. But the love itself is NOT, especially if it doesn't motivate you to actually do something for someone.
Tending to someone's needs IS a work. Love is not!
This entire line of reasoning is a non-sequitur. Love is not an "action" it is an emotion. An action may very well be a "work" (whether there is love behind it or not).
That's not true. SOME of his message had to do with performing works. But the MOST important message has to do with loving God and loving thy neighbor. Again, love is not a work!
You're missing the point of that passage. It's not about their works, it's about what kind of people they are and whether or not they are true disciples. Matthew 7:21-23 is discussing false disciples, people who claim to believe in Jesus, but do the opposite of things he requires. He calls them evildoers because they do evil INSTEAD of good. It's not about lacking works!
No it isn't. It is a requirement for forgiveness! It is not necessarily DOING something for someone else. I don't care whether you forgive me or not. But you SHOULD forgive me IF you want to be forgiven for your sins.
No, it isn't. However, actually tending to widows and orphans would be a work.
I don't think that these theories are mutually exclusive. What drives a man to suddenly turn to Christ? I believe it is the Holy Spirit.
But they were all still SINNERS. Job charged God with judging him unfairly, while Noah was a drunk. They were called blameless because they repented their sins before God.
I agree. But I don't think this is particularly relevant here.
Oh you will, you will. Just wait a little longer. Just a little longer:yes:Btw, I still don't have a revelation of Hell.
Well, dont under estimate the power of prayer:shout:yes: Remember when God promised Abraham a son? God was true to His word! And not just on paper.I was Christian for 30 years, been non-theist (atheist, naturalist, pantheist etc) since.
Hmmmm, many people call their religion Christian. Hard for me to believe you were a Chistian for 30 years and just gave up due to your lack of belief in hell. Doesnt sound right. Usually people give up on God due to a tragedy in there lives.
I've prayed many times, and for my whole life, I never got an answer about Hell. I never truly liked the idea, and I hated to try to explain it (or make excuses for it the way you've done) to people when I proselytized. Hell makes even less sense now after my mind was freed from the shackles of dogmatic and fundamentalist religion.
Being a Christian for 30 years you must have realized that Gods Word (the bible) is how He reveals Himself to mankind. There are scriptures after scriptures after scriptures that speak of the exsistance of hell. There is your answer about hell. How can you not see that? Btw, How do I make excuses? I believe it exsists and I say why I believe it
So far, the revelation I'm having is that God isn't the kind of "Hell creator" as people want him/her/it to be.
No one wants Him to be a hell creator. If you were a bible taught Christian you would know God never created hell for people. He created it for the satan and his demons.
Heaven and Hell is here. Right now. This life. This point in time is eternity and you choose to live in bliss or not right here.
Yes, we live in a fallen world and it sucks! Jesus said that we are going to face trouble while we are here on earth. No one lives in bliss here whether you choose it or not. And how is our (maybe 100 years) limited time on this planet have anything to do with eternity?
But thanks for praying for me.
The question is why? Why would we have to wait 30-40 years for God to answer, and still not hearing anything from him? Is that really how God works? Just delaying on purpose? There are people who wait for an answer their whole life and die before they get one. They're screwed because God wanted to screw with them.
Doesn't make sense.
The total number of hours I prayed over my lifetime probably counts in the tens of thousands. I used to pray a lot, really a lot. I was part of a prayer team in church. We did support prayer for Sunday morning meetings that would go on for 3-4 hours. I was also member of a prayer group. I participated in prayer meetings, some a whole day long. And honestly... I never saw God act or do anything miraculous. Life just went on.Well, dont under estimate the power of prayer:shout:yes: Remember when God promised Abraham a son? God was true to His word! And not just on paper.
Yes the things that happend "In the name of Christianity" like the ones you just mentioned were horrible. But remember they did not do it because it was what Jesus taught, but they did it because they wanted to. They exersized their free will to do something terrible. Dont blame God for that, blame the people that did it. I realize you probably dont care about anything I have said. Im just trying to answer your questions the best I canAnd what if God brings one to the conclusion that 'hell' was never part of the equation? Who is to say that those who are convinced there is no endless torment in hell aren't serious to the bottom of their core? What if the only thing mankind ever stood in need of being saved from is the notion that he needed saving in the first place?
Now your just making assumptions. The bible speaks with numerous scriptures of hell as definately part of the equasion, sorry.
That would certainly bring a whole new meaning to the verse from the bible that says “Be it unto you according to your faith”. If one's faith includes hell, perhaps it will be unto them accordingly. A sobering thought, and all the more reason not to include hell in my spiritual outlook!
What do you think the full context of that verse means?
Having lived most of my life with a belief in endless torment, I can answer that one. For one thing, it drove people around me crazy because I always felt I had to get them to believe what I do in order to be saved. See, thats the mistake so many people make thinking they are resposible for a persons salvation. That would drive me crazy as well! I remember someone telling one time that we as Christians are responsible to people not for them. All we are to do is tell people about the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ and pray for them, thats it. Its Gods responsibility to do the rest. Now whether one accepts or rejects? I dunno, thats there decision based on whatever its is they base it on. Then there's living with the idea that most of mankind, including one's loved ones, will likely end up tormented endlessly. Then, even if assurance of salvation happens to be settled in your own mind, along comes some preacher whose particular perspective brings all of that into question (i.e., the “Lordship salvationists”
In the Book of Galatians chapter 1 verses 8-10 it speaks of these people and how they will be cursed for altering Gods Word. For doing exactly what you mentioned above. There's also the effect that believing in a god who would commit such atrocities has on adherents – i.e., if it's okay for god to be that cruel, then we can be that cruel too, if it's for a 'good' cause – hence the Inquisition, Crusades, and other violent religious conquests in order to win people over to the 'kingdom'.
In my own life I have experienced what you just shared. For me God has said YES, NO, or WAIT. I hate waiting! I want it now, just like a little kid at times. But a lot of times if not most, I look back and thank God for not answering my prayer the way I wanted it answered. I have also experienced very fast answers. Just a small example. I was a smoker and wanted to quit. I tried everything just about but nothing worked. Being frustrated out of my mind I told God one night, God? I know you want me to quit, but I cant, I cant do it myself. I need for you to take the urge away from me, because if you dont do that I cant quit. As I look back, it was like He was saying ok, nothing is impossible through my strength, lets do it! Next day, no urge. I thought no way.Im already doubting. Next day no urge. The funny thing is that a couple of guys I work with smoke and the smell of that so early after quiting would have driven me to start up again but I trusted God. Its been 15 years since that I've smoked. Never had a urge since that awesome day! I could go on and on but wont bore you anymore than I have
Have I had tragedy in my life? Yes! Why didnt God fix it then? He says He loves me, why did I have to suffer through that? Well, as I looked back, I see that if He would have fixed it, certain things with a better outcome would have never happend. Its not easy, I'll be the first one to admit that. But I have seen God work in my life in so many different ways and now know, He has a plan for me that is better than the one I have, so I keep trusting in Him even if I dont get the answer I think I need right away. Even though life isnt fair and life really sucks at times I keep trusting.
In my own life I have experienced what you just shared. For me God has said YES, NO, or WAIT. I hate waiting! I want it now, just like a little kid at times. But a lot of times if not most, I look back and thank God for not answering my prayer the way I wanted it answered. I have also experienced very fast answers. Just a small example. I was a smoker and wanted to quit. I tried everything just about but nothing worked. Being frustrated out of my mind I told God one night, God? I know you want me to quit, but I cant, I cant do it myself. I need for you to take the urge away from me, because if you dont do that I cant quit. As I look back, it was like He was saying ok, nothing is impossible through my strength, lets do it! Next day, no urge. I thought no way.Im already doubting. Next day no urge. The funny thing is that a couple of guys I work with smoke and the smell of that so early after quiting would have driven me to start up again but I trusted God. Its been 15 years since that I've smoked. Never had a urge since that awesome day! I could go on and on but wont bore you anymore than I have
You know, I really like dialoging with youI'm glad for you that God came through and helped you. My wife was a smoker too, and she prayed and was prayed for, many times, and it didn't work. Not until she faced a life and death ultimatum that forced her to quit, she went on a medical treatment that helped her with the addiction. I feel that it was her own will and the magic of medicine that helped her first. God is still holding on to his answer.
But, anyway, the only "revelation" about Hell I've had so far since I prayed the other day is the though that eternal punishment for just being born a human being is unfair, unjust, extreme, and cruel. So I guess that's the answer God gave me. He hates Hell and thinks it should be shut down.
Up to this point I agree with you sadly. I dont think God wants it shut down because evil must be dealt with and satan and his demons will have their eternity there. I'm sure that wasn't the revelation you wanted me to get, but that's the one I have. Actually, your right. I say this with all honesty and respect. When I said I prayed for you the other day? That wasnt just some flip answer. I know some people say Im praying for you but they really dont. They say things like that as more of a good will gesture to make the other person feel good. I prayed that God would reveal Himself to you in a way that He has never done before. I didnt pray for a revelation of hell, but of love, and of trust that no matter what comes our way, He is right there along side us, holding us together and helping through whatever we are facing
Im glad we can do it, share and talk about life and spititual things without it turning into a arguement. I dont know why your wifes path of treatment went the way it did. I tell you the truth, I have seen people cured of cancer and it had nothing to do with doctors or treatment. The doctors are just stunned. I have seen people cured or in remission of cancer through treatment. My father suffered 16 years and died of cancer. 6' 4" guy 250lbs go down to 98 lbs. Absolutely sickening! If you dont think I was exteamely angry with God? As I look back, had he not gotten this horrible disease? He would have never accepted Jesus as his savior. Because it was this disease that brought him to his knees! He was a stubborn German! It was in the last months of his life that he did. I dont know why God does what He does. The bible tells us that His ways are not our ways. I have seen 3 year olds die of cancer. I mean how fair is that? Its not! But its a reality of this life here on earth. And guess who is the prince of this world? You know what I see mostly? Everyone is blaming God for the world and its problems but no one is looking at the one who is causing all the destruction, disease, murder, the Holocaust and child molestation etc., ect., ect.. That no good punk satan and his demons! The bible says in 1 Pet. 5:8 You're assuming that I'm making assumptions but that's just an assumption on my part, lol!
Seriously though, I'm speaking from experience. I'm beyond worrying about that, as I've gradually distanced myself from leaning too heavily on any ancient religious texts in my spiritual walk. Besides, I was specifically referring to the whole new meaning that verse is given in the context of those who support a hell-concept. The verse stands alone quite nicely in that regard, as far as I'm concerned.
Ah, but you can bet there'll be a sermon somewhere along the line that will guilt you into feeling like you were 'ashamed of the gospel' if you didn't broadcast your beliefs from the rooftops every chance you got. Been there, done that. Exhausting!
I mean, yeah, I did believe that ultimately salvation was in God's hands, but religious institutions being what they are, God's power gets subtly whittled away in a person's mind as more and more is expected of church-members.What constitutes 'altering god's word' depends on which of the thousands of denominations you're dealing with in Christianity. One person's 'altering of the word' is another's gospel truth. I'm so glad I've been delivered from the need to sort through all that.
I don't blame God for anything I just find institutionalized religion in general incredibly underwhelming, one reason being that it compels adherents to enforce en masse things which God most likely intended specifically single individuals. In other words, His guidance isn't necessarily a one-size-fits-all deal, and the trouble arises when people become convinced that a message He gives one person is automatically intended for everyone else.
I'm glad we can too. If you met me a few years ago, it wouldn't have been so easy.You know, I really like dialoging with you
I've met people like that too. One was cured by changing diet and not a religious thing. Some have been cure by doing yoga, mediation, and such too.
Well, I was Christian and my wife and kids too when we had our ordeal in the past. Losing our faith saved us from a lot of questions and frustration. We could move on and be more at peace with the problems we faced without feeling guilt towards some imaginary entity pulling strings against us.My father suffered 16 years and died of cancer. 6' 4" guy 250lbs go down to 98 lbs. Absolutely sickening! If you dont think I was exteamely angry with God? As I look back, had he not gotten this horrible disease? He would have never accepted Jesus as his savior. Because it was this disease that brought him to his knees! He was a stubborn German!
I think it's a cop-out.
I think it's time to put imaginary monsters under the bed to rest. The bogey man doesn't exist. He's just a scary nightmarish story to scare kids to obedience. I feel that a grew out of those stories and now I can be at peace with how the world works.
Yes, I see what you are saying. There is no love in hell. The awesome love is what He did to keep all of us out of that horrible place!:yes: I guess our perspectives are just a little, maybe a lot different.:slap: (being funny with the smily facesYou're assuming that I'm making assumptions but that's just an assumption on my part, lol! Seriously though, I'm speaking from experience. LOL! Thats funny!
There is just as much in the bible to question the concept of hell as there is to affirm it. If you want, we can get into that just be warned that I've gone around that mulberry bush enough times that I can pretty much predict what the next pro-hell argument is going to be during the course of a debate before it even appears on my computer screen. In the past 7 or so years of discussion and debate on it, I have yet to hear an argument I've never heard previously in favor of hell that held any water. They're all repeats at this point.
No, not interested in a arguement. Doesnt solve anything.
I'm beyond worrying about that, as I've gradually distanced myself from leaning too heavily on any ancient religious texts in my spiritual walk. Besides, I was specifically referring to the whole new meaning that verse is given in the context of those who support a hell-concept. The verse stands alone quite nicely in that regard, as far as I'm concerned. OK
When it comes to what the Official Context is regarding any scripture, that all depends on which pastor is elaborating on it anyway.
LOL!
Ah, but you can bet there'll be a sermon somewhere along the line that will guilt you into feeling like you were 'ashamed of the gospel' if you didn't broadcast your beliefs from the rooftops every chance you got. Been there, done that. Exhausting!
Yes, sadly that is true.
And if one is seriously taking in the full implications of what hell supposedly is, they'd never rest until everyone accepted Jesus. There is a book out called "23 Minutes in Hell." After reading that book it sure increased my passion to want to keep people out of there. One would have to be desensitized to hell to live a normal life believing in it and the ramifications it has on those around them. Yes indeed, but then, I have to keep remembering, its not me that is going to save anyone, or draw anyone to God, its God Himself.
What constitutes 'altering god's word' depends on which of the thousands of denominations you're dealing with in Christianity. One person's 'altering of the word' is another's gospel truth. I'm so glad I've been delivered from the need to sort through all that. Yes very true! I think the main message stays the same though in Christianity for the most part and that is salvation through Jesus Christ.
I don't blame God for anything I just find institutionalized religion in general incredibly underwhelming, one reason being that it compels adherents to enforce en masse things which God most likely intended specifically single individuals. In other words, His guidance isn't necessarily a one-size-fits-all deal, and the trouble arises when people become convinced that a message He gives one person is automatically intended for everyone else.
Hmmmm . . . . . yes and no. I think the message of salvation is meant for everyone. However, our personal relationship Him is on an individual basis and certainly is not a one-size-fits-all way He deals with every one person. We all have different situations in life. What I think is really cool is that no matter what our situation is? He will meet us right where we are at!
Heck -- an afterthought based on my last statement -- it could be that there is a hell for those who believe there is one, and folks like me who (presumably through God) were persuaded there is no hell don't have any hell to worry about. What God has assured me (i.e., 'there is no hell, m'lady') might be true for me, but the guy who is convinced that God has told him differently, for him there is one and he will have to beware (the whole 'be it unto you according to your faith' platform again). I hope I'm wrong about that. I don't give a hoot who it is, eternal hell (as I'm understanding it) is just overkill in my opinion, and I don't see Love itself (God) placing anyone there.
)
