Is hell too harsh?

[captainbryce]

Much better. And in the future, I shall try to keep that in mind when you're talking.

However, it still indicates that a person who, through deeds, follows Christ, but with words, claims to not believe in him, must be regarded as good.

They must be regarded as "doing good", but not necessarily "good natured". Because we all have a sinful nature as scripture says. If you say you've never committed a sin before, you are lying! Even good people are constantly tempted to do bad, and nobody has ever led a sinless life (except Jesus). That is why we need salvation through him, no matter how "good" we think we are. Because at the end of the day, all the good works in the world do not make up for the sins we've committed. The wages of sin is death, and we must still be redeemed (through Christ) from our sins and our tendency to commit sin.

True, enough. My own interpretations of the Gospels shouldn't be regarded as, well, gospel, by actual Christians. :no:

Understood!

 

[Riverwolf]

They must be regarded as "doing good", but not necessarily "good natured". Because we all have a sinful nature as scripture says. If you say you've never committed a sin before, you are lying! Even good people are constantly tempted to do bad, and nobody has ever led a sinless life (except Jesus). That is why we need salvation through him, no matter how "good" we think we are. Because at the end of the day, all the good works in the world do not make up for the sins we've committed. The wages of sin is death, and we must still be redeemed (through Christ) from our sins and our tendency to commit sin.

Well, my experience and meditations have revealed to me that someone's nature is shaped by his deeds, not by whatever his parents or ancestors did.

'Course my conscience is not 100% clean; there's plenty I've done that I'm not in any way proud of. But it's nonsense to think that all wrongs are created equal; a little white lie is not akin to serial killing.

 

[payak]

God is punishing those who exercise the free will he gave them if hell exists for infidels.

 

[roger1440]

What gives god the right to put people into eternal suffering for not being "perfect"? Doesn't this seem a little unfair? How is god justified in letting his own creation suffer forever? If there is a heaven with this kind of god, hell is the place for me. How can he expect people to enjoy heaven when there are people who will burn forever because of the god the worship?

I guess you didn't read the fine print in the contract.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

No, love is NOT a "work", it is an emotion. A work is a "good deed", and the bible actually differentiates between the two.

Hebrews 10:24
And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love AND good deeds.

Donating money to a children's charity is a work. Volunteering at a soup kitchen is a work. Building a homes for the homeless is a work. "Loving" something is not a work! Anyone can have love for anything (good or bad). Someone can love children, but do absolutely nothing to benefit them! People can love money, cars, sex, alcohol and drugs, but these are obviously not "works" just because someone has expressed a "love" for them.

Asking for forgiveness is not a work, but an act of repentance. This is not something that benefits someone else, it is a requirement for your own salvation. Thus is it is not a "work" or good deed!

You're point?

You might as well say that Christians should ignore most of the New Testament and anything written by the Apostle Paul because he was a man who was not inspired by God. Unfortunately (for your case) Christians generally consider Paul to be as much a prophet of God as OT prophets and all of Jesus' disciples. Whether he actually met Jesus or not is irrelevant if he was in fact inspired by God to speak on his behalf.

I already agreed with that point. But this is irrelevant to salvation. Salvation is through faith, NOT WORKS (because that's what the bible says). Only if you reject much of the NT and all of the Apostle Paul's text can you make this argument. But that would not be consistent with the doctrines of any Christian denomination.

It's not a matter of "laziness", it's a matter of what God's word says! If you choose to reject God's word because you don't believe that Paul was an apostle of Christ, that's your business. But that is not my position, nor is it the position of any Christian denomination that I'm aware of. There is a very specific reason why good deeds do not get you into heaven, so that we cannot boast! Salvation is a gift from God, and if you believe that you need good works to get you into heaven, then you lack faith in Christ and are no better than the Jews who reject him. It's essentially the same argument they made about whether or not we have to be circumcised (as required by Jewish law). Following the law doesn't get you salvation and neither do good works. It is faith in Christ alone that saves!

If not, then what is your answer to my previous question about the crippled, dying man who professes faith in Christ? Apparently, in addition to rejecting Paul as an Apostle, you also reject the Gospel of Luke.

Christians DID exist at that point. The original disciples were Christians!

The original disciples were Jews, much of the issues with Paul and the the Original particularly James was regarding te role of the message being given to the Gentile.

Love is a work, it is not simply an emotion. If you love someone there are certain things that you will do. Value their opinion, tend to their needs, etc. It is not simply an emotion. Hence the saying that actions are louder than words.

All of Jesus's messages focused on being able to perform works

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’--Why call them evil-doers if their works were not important? They certainly were professing with their hearts, they were performing miracles in Jesus's name, yet still considered evil---and what was evil? Those who did not obey the law.

--Being told to forgive others. Is a work.
--Being told to tend to the widows and the orphans--Work.

Paul never met Jesus, and claims himself an apostle...fine. I see a man who spent so much time persecuting christians that he felt that the only way to redeem himself would be through faith, how could he ever ask for forgiveness with all he's done? But that's another issue.

Also

Noah and Job were called blameless before God

Abraham walked with God.

and Jesus told us to be perfect as our father in heaven is perfect. It's works.

 

[Rapture Era]

Just wanted to mention a few things here . . . . . . . .

The original disciples were Jews, much of the issues with Paul and the the Original particularly James was regarding te role of the message being given to the Gentile.

Love is a work, it is not simply an emotion. If you love someone there are certain things that you will do. Value their opinion, tend to their needs, etc. It is not simply an emotion. Hence the saying that actions are louder than words.

All of Jesus's messages focused on being able to perform works

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’--Why call them evil-doers if their works were not important? They certainly were professing with their hearts, they were performing miracles in Jesus's name, yet still considered evil---and what was evil? Those who did not obey the law. These people were casting out demons and doing all of these things in Jesus' name but they were doing them for their own profit, benefit and recognition, not through Jesus. They never had a personal relationship with him which is why he is saying "I never knew you." It's like all of those who did horrible things in the name of Christianity in the past and even today. Thats why they were and are "evildoers."

--Being told to forgive others. Is a work.
--Being told to tend to the widows and the orphans--Work.

Paul never met Jesus, and claims himself an apostle...fine. I see a man who spent so much time persecuting christians that he felt that the only way to redeem himself would be through faith, how could he ever ask for forgiveness with all he's done? But that's another issue. The message about Pauls conversion is interesting. He actually thought that persecuting Christians was doing Gods work! Until God stopped him dead in his tracks one day as he was traveling to Demascus. The book of Acts chapter 9 describes this event. Pretty crazy what happens!

Also

Noah and Job were called blameless before God
And here, its not that we are sinnless, we are far from that, but because Abraham, Noah and Job believed God? It was accounted to them rightiousness at that time. Its an example of our personal relationship with Jesus. Just because we have a personal relationship with Jesus doesnt mean we dont sin, but because of what Jesus did on the cross and our personal faith in him, our sins have been forgiven and a sinful person can now have access to heaven and a holy God. People say oh that gives you a license to sin, you can do whatever you want and just ask God to forgive you and all is ok. No it doesnt and no its not. God knows whats real and whats not and will deal with you accordingly!

Abraham walked with God.

and Jesus told us to be perfect as our father in heaven is perfect. It's works.
He obvously knew we could not be perfect but Jesus wants us to strive in that direction. He is our mentor.Yes it is works. I like your explanation of love and works, its right on!

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

See the response is reading out of the text but not what the text says, which is what cherry picking essentially is. When I quote the text as it states people feel a need to add to it.

Again Evil-Doer was those who did not do the Law. You say taht they were doing it for profit, and all that. Does it say that? It's an assumption.

 

[ChristineES]

See the response is reading out of the text but not what the text says, which is what cherry picking essentially is. When I quote the text as it states people feel a need to add to it.

Again Evil-Doer was those who did not do the Law. You say taht they were doing it for profit, and all that. Does it say that? It's an assumption.

Most of everything we say on this subject can be taken as an assumption. What we offer can only be opinions on it.
I think a bigger problem is taking all of this out of context; Christians do it, non-Christians do it. It is not just the Bible, either, that can be applied to any religious text. I am not saying it is wrong to post individual verses and quotes, but I think it would be best to go back and read all of the accompanying text with it. It would probably not change anyone's mind about what it means, but I think it would help with understanding it.

 

[Astravalon]

Is hell too harsh? If by 'hell' one means 'endless torment for all eternity' then I would say most definitely yes.

 

[Rapture Era]

See the response is reading out of the text but not what the text says, which is what cherry picking essentially is. When I quote the text as it states people feel a need to add to it.

Again Evil-Doer was those who did not do the Law. You say taht they were doing it for profit, and all that. Does it say that? It's an assumption.

When we were in Israel this year, we spoke with many individuals that study the history and scriptures of that day. This was what they said. They are much more knowledgable on these subjects than I am. I was just offereing it here because I remembered them speaking about this verse. Wasnt trying to cherry pick, just thought I would share some insight. Sorry for adding my comment. As far as evildoers and the law? We are all eveildoers because none of us can keep the law (Ten Comandments). Thats a problem, Jesus was and still is the answer according to Christian beliefs.

 

[Rapture Era]

Is hell too harsh? If by 'hell' one means 'endless torment for all eternity' then I would say most definitely yes.

So, if it were at all possible that there is a hell of unending torment whether any of us like it or not, whether any of us believe it or not, fair or not. But if it WAS a possiblity, would you not want to know more about how to stay out of hell? Or would you just let your feelings determine your eternal destiny?

 

[Astravalon]

So, if it were at all possible that there is a hell of unending torment whether any of us like it or not, whether any of us believe it or not, fair or not. But if it WAS a possiblity, would you not want to know more about how to stay out of hell? Or would you just let your feelings determine your eternal destiny?

It's being assumed that feelings are the primary ingredient in my conclusions on the matter.

Even if there were an eternal hell, there is so much discrepancy as to what, precisely, it is that keeps people out of it that one would go crazy trying to maintain a lifestyle based upon it. Don't forget, Christianity isn't the only religion in which endless hell is taught. You might be keeping yourself out of the Christian hell, but what if the Muslim hell is real? Then what?

 

[Ouroboros]

So, if it were at all possible that there is a hell of unending torment whether any of us like it or not, whether any of us believe it or not, fair or not. But if it WAS a possiblity, would you not want to know more about how to stay out of hell? Or would you just let your feelings determine your eternal destiny?

Or there's the possibility that there isn't any hell and any arbitrary attempt to avoid it causes unnecessary suffering in this life for both the practitioners and people around them.

 

[Rapture Era]

It's being assumed that feelings are the primary ingredient in my conclusions on the matter.

Even if there were an eternal hell, there is so much discrepancy as to what, precisely, it is that keeps people out of it that one would go crazy trying to maintain a lifestyle based upon it. Don't forget, Christianity isn't the only religion in which endless hell is taught. You might be keeping yourself out of the Christian hell, but what if the Muslim hell is real? Then what?

Well, if I wanted to stay out of hell and didnt know which hell I wanted to stay out of? I would at least pray to God and say, "look God, I dont know which god or which hell is real. I dont even know if you are real, but I want to seek you for my salvation. I need for you to reveal yourself to me, because I really need to know!" And if you are really serious to the bottom of your core? I believe the true and living God will show you, will speak to you, will reveal Himself to you. I really believe that!

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

When we were in Israel this year, we spoke with many individuals that study the history and scriptures of that day. This was what they said. They are much more knowledgable on these subjects than I am. I was just offereing it here because I remembered them speaking about this verse. Wasnt trying to cherry pick, just thought I would share some insight. Sorry for adding my comment. As far as evildoers and the law? We are all eveildoers because none of us can keep the law (Ten Comandments). Thats a problem, Jesus was and still is the answer according to Christian beliefs.

Your comment is welcomed. But my point is that at best people will addd to it.

Evil Doers are those who do not keep the Ten Commandments, hence why we are supposed to ask for forgiveness.

The difference is between one who does not uphold the commandments and does not repent and one who does not uphold the commandments and repents for not doing so.

 

[Rapture Era]

Or there's the possibility that there isn't any hell and any arbitrary attempt to avoid it causes unnecessary suffering in this life for both the practitioners and people around them.

Yes, it is a possibility. How would a personal interest in avoiding hell cause suffering to you or people around you?

 

[Ouroboros]

Well, if I wanted to stay out of hell and didnt know which hell I wanted to stay out of? I would at least pray to God and say, "look God, I dont know which god or which hell is real. I dont even know if you are real, but I want to seek you for my salvation. I need for you to reveal yourself to me, because I really need to know!" And if you are really serious to the bottom of your core? I believe the true and living God will show you, will speak to you, will reveal Himself to you. I really believe that!

Ok. Let's try it.

I prayed... I wanted to know... Now let's wait and see what revelation I get.

 

[Rapture Era]

Your comment is welcomed. But my point is that at best people will addd to it.

Evil Doers are those who do not keep the Ten Commandments, hence why we are supposed to ask for forgiveness.

The difference is between one who does not uphold the commandments and does not repent and one who does not uphold the commandments and repents for not doing so.

LOL I had to read that last one a couple times haahaaa! Yes I agree!

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I suspect hell is likely to be reserved for people who believe that other should go to hell. If there's a god who has set up life as some type of test, this makes the most sense. Especially considering all the irony that god has built into the universe.

 

[Ouroboros]

I suspect hell is likely to be reserved for people who believe that other should go to hell. If there's a god who has set up life as some type of test, this makes the most sense. Especially considering all the irony that god has built into the universe.

A smart God would build many heavens. Just put everyone in different rooms. It's not like God is running out of space. If he needs space, he can create it from nothing... so there.