Is Islam Responsible for the Charlie Hebdo Murders?

[Deadtroopers]

That is a silly argument if you are the creator of the universe you can do whatever you like, when is the last time you protested the killing of ants and spiders?

Funny, a big finger coming out of the sky at random squashing people is a thing unheard of in all recorded history. Besides you just declared your god a random psycho.

 

[sampuna]

there is a difference between the religion, and the believer.

the religion can advocate some values.

it is up to the believers to live up to it, or to choose some and trash some.

there are precedents in islamic texts that advocate such things though :

“A blind man had a freed concubine (umm walad) who used to insult the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and say bad things about him. He told her not to do that but she did not stop, and he rebuked her but she did not heed him. One night, when she started to say bad things about the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and insult him, he took a short sword or dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it and killed her. The following morning that was mentioned to the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). He called the people together and said, “I ask by Allah the man who has done this action and I order him by my right over him that he should stand up.” The blind man stood up and said, “O Messenger of Allah, I am the one who did it; she used to insult you and say bad things about you. I forbade her, but she did not stop, and I rebuked her, but she did not give up her habit. I have two sons like pearls from her, and she was kind to me. Last night she began to insult you and say bad things about you. So I took a dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it till I killed her.”
Thereupon the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Bear witness, there is no blood money due for her.”
(Classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Sunan An-Nasa’ee, 4081)

 

[Bodhitharta]

Funny, a big finger coming out of the sky at random squashing people is a thing unheard of in all recorded history. Besides you just declared your god a random psycho.

Your view of psychology cannot apply to God because the created has no idea what the creator is doing

 

[Bodhitharta]

there is a difference between the religion, and the believer.

the religion can advocate some values.

it is up to the believers to live up to it, or to choose some and trash some.

there are precedents in islamic texts that advocate such things though :

“A blind man had a freed concubine (umm walad) who used to insult the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and say bad things about him. He told her not to do that but she did not stop, and he rebuked her but she did not heed him. One night, when she started to say bad things about the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and insult him, he took a short sword or dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it and killed her. The following morning that was mentioned to the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). He called the people together and said, “I ask by Allah the man who has done this action and I order him by my right over him that he should stand up.” The blind man stood up and said, “O Messenger of Allah, I am the one who did it; she used to insult you and say bad things about you. I forbade her, but she did not stop, and I rebuked her, but she did not give up her habit. I have two sons like pearls from her, and she was kind to me. Last night she began to insult you and say bad things about you. So I took a dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it till I killed her.”
Thereupon the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Bear witness, there is no blood money due for her.”
(Classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Sunan An-Nasa’ee, 4081)

If you are a buddhist it is the same why would you be attached to this at all?

 

[Deadtroopers]

If you are a buddhist it is the same why would you be attached to this at all?

I don't recall Siddartha Gautama saying, or having attributed to him, any saying of the shouty, stabby kind. Perhaps a Buddhist might comment.

 

[Deadtroopers]

Your view of psychology cannot apply to God because the created has no idea what the creator is doing

Bit of a twit aren’t we? Isn't it all in your Big Book of Random Nonsense?

 

[jeager106]

Guess what? Christendom indulged in similar denialism in earlier times; and some strands of Christianity haven't got out of the habit. Remind me how close the USA came to succumbing to a swivel-eyed Christian heresy/idolatry only recently. The GOP is arguably still in it's grip.

Everyone is aware, or should be aware, of the crimes Christianity committed in the name of "god".
Somewhere along the strands of time most all of Christianity matured past that kind of exclusivity to commit murder disguised
as purifying a particular religion, most notably the Roman Catholic church.
Eventually educated leaders rebeled against the crimes of the almighty "church".
Perhaps the same must happen in the islamic world?
I'm old enough to recall crimes, murders, descrimination, against homosexuals and people of color.
In time tolerance, then acceptance, was the rule and attitudes and minds changed.
To say acceptance and tolerance has been abolished in the Christian ccommunity would be a fairy tale.
There are however, some Christian movements that have ablolished such thinking.
Well, perhaps one movement in particular. One that digs, and digs, into Christian literature to really understand what
the God named Jehovah stands for and impliment His words into thinking, and behavior.
One young group that I beleive sees no color, cultural, racial, or ethnic origins, only brother and sisters.
If one must compare a religious group to other religious groups then consider:
When was the last time anyone was aware of a Christian group whose literature promotes killing any other group in the name of a god?
What Christian groups promotes mass murder by suicide?
Does the Christian bible permit, promote, lying in the name of a god?
Commit murder for insulting Jesus?
I could go on ad nauseum but to what effect?
Dredging up the crimes of Christendom in centuries past is a weak argument in the face of the killing, intolerance, promotion of hatred, in todays world. However I must say that forgetting the
crimes of the past only serves to permit such to happen again.
Can anyone describe any other modern religion that encourages murder by suicide by rewarding the actor
with an immediate flight to heaven to dwell with god and partake of virgins whose sole puprose is to sexually
service the suicidal murderer or the islamic fighter that dies in the cause of promoting islam into world
dominance?
Yes indeed there are certain fundalmentalists in Christendom that hate homosexuals, might lynch people of color, but I
know of NO groups claiming to be Christian that promotes such sin in todays world.
I'm sure someone can/will site individual examples of a Christian gone mad with murderous intent but
are there 40 to 60 thousand soldiers like ISIS openly murdering, burning groups of people alive, in the name of a god?
I don't know of any group of Sikhs, Hindus, Buddhists, Pagans, Folk religions, Santerians, that desire world
dominance at the point of the sword.
Not even Baptists.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I know a little bit about a lot and have a shed full of books on most topics I'll spout off about. The Civil War has been a fitful interest that I last looked at decades ago; so I'll be at a loss on most of the intricacies I'm afraid. Some of it stuck however.

I'd be worried about who gets to play Ireland if modern history sticks too closely to this historical narrative...

 

[Shad]

So the police should be full of hot air and empty threats? Is violence ever needed?

You response has nothing to do with what I said. You are blaming the victim of a crime rather than the hotheads that can not control their emotions while restoring to premeditated murder. A law enforcement officer should use violence as a last resort. This is not the same thing as hurt feelings as a basis for murdering anyone. The police are empowered by the state. A religious person with hurt feelings threaten violence on people is a criminal and empowered by no one. No one should be obligated to respect or follow the commands of a criminal. It seems like you rather have people remain silent than a few people having hurt feelings. Guess what, this is the real world. People are going to be offended. If people can not handle this they should never leave their homes.

 

[Bodhitharta]

You response has nothing to do with what I said. You are blaming the victim of a crime rather than the hotheads that can not control their emotions while restoring to premeditated murder. A law enforcement officer should use violence as a last resort. This is not the same thing as hurt feelings as a basis for murdering anyone. The police are empowered by the state. A religious person with hurt feelings threaten violence on people is a criminal and empowered by no one. No one should be obligated to respect or follow the commands of a criminal. It seems like you rather have people remain silent than a few people having hurt feelings. Guess what, this is the real world. People are going to be offended. If people can not handle this they should never leave their homes.

You see what I mean, this is your feeling that the religious person has not been empowered by God, I have no problem with what you are saying but you should recognize that in your mind "the state" has the authority to Kill for whatever it is offended about and you can get the death penalty for simply sharing "state" secrets, so hurting the feelings of the state can have dire consequences

 

[Bodhitharta]

Everyone is aware, or should be aware, of the crimes Christianity committed in the name of "god".
Somewhere along the strands of time most all of Christianity matured past that kind of exclusivity to commit murder disguised
as purifying a particular religion, most notably the Roman Catholic church.
Eventually educated leaders rebeled against the crimes of the almighty "church".
Perhaps the same must happen in the islamic world?
I'm old enough to recall crimes, murders, descrimination, against homosexuals and people of color.
In time tolerance, then acceptance, was the rule and attitudes and minds changed.
To say acceptance and tolerance has been abolished in the Christian ccommunity would be a fairy tale.
There are however, some Christian movements that have ablolished such thinking.
Well, perhaps one movement in particular. One that digs, and digs, into Christian literature to really understand what
the God named Jehovah stands for and impliment His words into thinking, and behavior.
One young group that I beleive sees no color, cultural, racial, or ethnic origins, only brother and sisters.
If one must compare a religious group to other religious groups then consider:
When was the last time anyone was aware of a Christian group whose literature promotes killing any other group in the name of a god?
What Christian groups promotes mass murder by suicide?
Does the Christian bible permit, promote, lying in the name of a god?
Commit murder for insulting Jesus?
I could go on ad nauseum but to what effect?
Dredging up the crimes of Christendom in centuries past is a weak argument in the face of the killing, intolerance, promotion of hatred, in todays world. However I must say that forgetting the
crimes of the past only serves to permit such to happen again.
Can anyone describe any other modern religion that encourages murder by suicide by rewarding the actor
with an immediate flight to heaven to dwell with god and partake of virgins whose sole puprose is to sexually
service the suicidal murderer or the islamic fighter that dies in the cause of promoting islam into world
dominance?
Yes indeed there are certain fundalmentalists in Christendom that hate homosexuals, might lynch people of color, but I
know of NO groups claiming to be Christian that promotes such sin in todays world.
I'm sure someone can/will site individual examples of a Christian gone mad with murderous intent but
are there 40 to 60 thousand soldiers like ISIS openly murdering, burning groups of people alive, in the name of a god?
I don't know of any group of Sikhs, Hindus, Buddhists, Pagans, Folk religions, Santerians, that desire world
dominance at the point of the sword.
Not even Baptists.

Are you kidding look up Croatia and how serbs (Christians) were killing Muslims (Albanians)

 

[Deadtroopers]

I'd be worried about who gets to play Ireland if modern history sticks too closely to this historical narrative...

Ah Ireland. Both lots get upset when I tell them the Pope and King Billy were allies. Or that some of the major atrocities attributed to Cromwell simply didn't happen. Or that Henry II was given Ireland by the Pope. They won their independence and then what did they do? Organised a society where priests could bugger children with the complicity of the state. Don't get me started on Black '47 or Bloody Sunday. I am not denying English/Scottish guilt but a large part of what went on was inter-communal violence, though on a lesser level than the ISIS/al Assad contre-temps perhaps.

 

[Deadtroopers]

Are you kidding look up Croatia and how serbs (Christians) were killing Muslims (Albanians)

The ethnic violence in the Balkans had(has) a religious dimension but it was(is) not the sole or even main driver of violence as we see in Islam. Part of the reason for the religious dimension was(is) that Orthodox Christianity never had a Reformation. A thing it shares with Islam.

 

[Deadtroopers]

Everyone is aware, or should be aware, of the crimes Christianity committed in the name of "god".
Somewhere along the strands of time most all of Christianity matured past that kind of exclusivity to commit murder disguised
as purifying a particular religion, most notably the Roman Catholic church.
Eventually educated leaders rebeled against the crimes of the almighty "church".
Perhaps the same must happen in the islamic world?
I'm old enough to recall crimes, murders, descrimination, against homosexuals and people of color.
In time tolerance, then acceptance, was the rule and attitudes and minds changed.
To say acceptance and tolerance has been abolished in the Christian ccommunity would be a fairy tale.
There are however, some Christian movements that have ablolished such thinking.
Well, perhaps one movement in particular. One that digs, and digs, into Christian literature to really understand what
the God named Jehovah stands for and impliment His words into thinking, and behavior.
One young group that I beleive sees no color, cultural, racial, or ethnic origins, only brother and sisters.
If one must compare a religious group to other religious groups then consider:
When was the last time anyone was aware of a Christian group whose literature promotes killing any other group in the name of a god?
What Christian groups promotes mass murder by suicide?
Does the Christian bible permit, promote, lying in the name of a god?
Commit murder for insulting Jesus?
I could go on ad nauseum but to what effect?
Dredging up the crimes of Christendom in centuries past is a weak argument in the face of the killing, intolerance, promotion of hatred, in todays world. However I must say that forgetting the
crimes of the past only serves to permit such to happen again.
Can anyone describe any other modern religion that encourages murder by suicide by rewarding the actor
with an immediate flight to heaven to dwell with god and partake of virgins whose sole puprose is to sexually
service the suicidal murderer or the islamic fighter that dies in the cause of promoting islam into world
dominance?
Yes indeed there are certain fundalmentalists in Christendom that hate homosexuals, might lynch people of color, but I
know of NO groups claiming to be Christian that promotes such sin in todays world.
I'm sure someone can/will site individual examples of a Christian gone mad with murderous intent but
are there 40 to 60 thousand soldiers like ISIS openly murdering, burning groups of people alive, in the name of a god?
I don't know of any group of Sikhs, Hindus, Buddhists, Pagans, Folk religions, Santerians, that desire world
dominance at the point of the sword.
Not even Baptists.

You haven't been paying attention to US affairs in the last couple of decades then is all I can say. The level of God-bothered ignorance in your nation is a wonder to the world. Some of your Christian groups have substituted money for Jesus; persuaded huge chunks of your ignorant poor that all society's ills are their fault; and made them believe they have to shoot themselves in the head metaphorically speaking. There remains a very real possibility of folk trying to help on the End Times so they can be Raptured away.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Ah Ireland. Both lots get upset when I tell them the Pope and King Billy were allies. Or that some of the major atrocities attributed to Cromwell simply didn't happen. Or that Henry II was given Ireland by the Pope. They won their independence and then what did they do? Organised a society where priests could bugger children with the complicity of the state. Don't get me started on Black '47 or Bloody Sunday. I am not denying English/Scottish guilt but a large part of what went on was inter-communal violence, though on a lesser level than the ISIS/al Assad contre-temps perhaps.

Oooh...a topic of common interest, if conflicting opinions and a sidetrack to this thread.

You ever want to start a sensible thread discussing it, let me know.

*tips hat*

 

[Deadtroopers]

Oooh...a topic of common interest, if conflicting opinions and a sidetrack to this thread.

You ever want to start a sensible thread discussing it, let me know.

*tips hat*

What, only the "peaceful" Muslims have derailment rights?

 

[jonathan180iq]

When the police warn you to stop or they will shoot are they being immature when you don't stop and they shoot?

Disobeying a police officer should logically make one expect to get shot. Disobeying a religious ideal that one does not adhere to or believe in should not. The most they should expect is another satirical cartoon.

Different situations. Even though the police have the authority to use violent force, even they must be held accountable for their actions when they violate people's rights with their trigger happy abuse. So how much more should non-law enforcement officers be held accountable for their murderous ways?

Just make sure no one blames Police Policy for the these crimes against humanity and only blames the individual officer who commits these acts.
Policy Policy never hurt anyone since it's just policy. It can't DO anything....

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Are you kidding look up Croatia and how serbs (Christians) were killing Muslims (Albanians)

Not to mention the Christian militias having a swell ol' time massacring Muslims in the Central African Republic.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Are you kidding look up Croatia and how serbs (Christians) were killing Muslims (Albanians)

The problem, however, remains that neither Muslims or Christians have any right to deploy the tuquoque fallacy considering both make contradictory claims of exclusive access to a higher moral authority. By doing so both groups place themselves above and apart from other religious groups and set themselves a higher standard by which the religions and the actions they inspire in their followers must be judged. If one fails then they can't resort to saying "Ah, but they do it too" as they've already decided that they're morally superior compared to everyone else.

 

[leibowde84]

You are agreeing with me, To a Muslim to be living in this world you are entering into a contract with God. When a person is born into a country they don't enter into anything they are born into their circumstance. You said you couldn't wrap your head around it but i think you don't want to simplify it. It's just like Saudi Arabia, our country calls it an ally but they do more killings (including beheadings) than any terror group and a Charlie Hebdo group would be killed their well within the limits of the law... you just don't like the way it is, does that mean it is wrong?

1. You enter into a social contract, which includes agreeing to obey the law of that land, when you become of consenting age. When that happens, you willfully enter into the contract by staying in that country and enjoyiing the benefits of doing so. The other option is to leave, which is possibly, as you are no longer under your parents control.

2. There is no excuse for any religious person putting their "contract with God" above their social contract with their fellow citizens/government. While everyone should be free to practice whatever religion they want, that practice is limited in many ways. Your right to practice your faith cannot infringe on the rights of another citizen. Also, your right to practice is limited due to the fact that you are still responsible to obey the law. If the law of the land contradicts your religion's law, then you must put the law of the land first.

Every citizen, no matter what their beliefs may be, are required to follow these rules and adhere to the notion that our #1 responsibility is to our fellow countrymen, not our religious beliefs. In other words, by entering into the social contract of the US when we turn 18, we are agreeing to practice our faith in a way that does not violate state/federal law. While a contract with God might feel more real than anything else, under the law it is not to be considered in a way that reduces the responsibility to be law abiding.