Is Islam Responsible for the Charlie Hebdo Murders?

[leibowde84]

That is a silly argument if you are the creator of the universe you can do whatever you like, when is the last time you protested the killing of ants and spiders?

I am saying that if God acts in that petty, selfish, foolhardy way, requiring people to kill other people to "defend his honor," that is a God that is not worth worshiping. Faith born of the fear of the risk of God's retribution is not only misguided, but also extremely dangerous.

 

[leibowde84]

That is a silly argument if you are the creator of the universe you can do whatever you like, when is the last time you protested the killing of ants and spiders?

And, btw, I definitely think that killing ants and spiders without justification is pretty messed-up. But, since they are creatures without the capacity for thought/reason, it is incomparible to the cold-blooded murder of unarmed human beings. Wouldn't you agree?

 

[leibowde84]

Just make sure no one blames Police Policy for the these crimes against humanity and only blames the individual officer who commits these acts.
Policy Policy never hurt anyone since it's just policy. It can't DO anything....

Agreed. Very true and often misunderstood idea these days.

 

[jeager106]

You haven't been paying attention to US affairs in the last couple of decades then is all I can say. The level of God-bothered ignorance in your nation is a wonder to the world. Some of your Christian groups have substituted money for Jesus; persuaded huge chunks of your ignorant poor that all society's ills are their fault; and made them believe they have to shoot themselves in the head metaphorically speaking. There remains a very real possibility of folk trying to help on the End Times so they can be Raptured away.

Please cite examples for reference; otherwise your post is merely personal speculation.

 

[jeager106]

Are you kidding look up Croatia and how serbs (Christians) were killing Muslims (Albanians)

I think anyone intersted should look up the conflict.
Most sources I've read say this war was about ethnicity and politics with religion playing a large part of
identifying ethnicity.
The horrible crimes committed on both (or all of the) side pale in comparison to what is currently happening in
the M.E. where muslims incinerate Christians wholesale.
Your point is valid however but subject to the real root causes of the autrocities committed on both (or many) sides
of that idiotic conflict.

 

[Shad]

You see what I mean, this is your feeling that the religious person has not been empowered by God, I have no problem with what you are saying but you should recognize that in your mind "the state" has the authority to Kill for whatever it is offended about and you can get the death penalty for simply sharing "state" secrets, so hurting the feelings of the state can have dire consequences

Being empowered by a god is just as meaningless as being empowered by a unicorn. It carries no weight in court. Beside if we must acknowledge one religious person is empowered by god we must acknowledge other people can be as well. As can other religions. Thus we go back to a period of time with every "chicken little" declaring their god or the one god they believe in is empowering them. We can not verify god nor any sort of empowerment one has so as I said it is meaningless.

The state has no emotions as it is not a person. State secrets being shared show a level of access a person has within the state's infrastructure. Usually some form of loyalty oath is given for people with this sort of access. It is this basis in which people are charged with treason. Depending on what is being share at time whistle blowers bring to light information which contradicts the states PR, such as the Bay of Tonkin incident. Again you comparison is flawed as you are comparing people to a institution thus is fallacious. Sharing state secrets can put more than the state in harms way, it also can put people in harms ways. This is far different that a religious hothead being offended and resorting to violence.

 

[Shad]

That is a silly argument if you are the creator of the universe you can do whatever you like, when is the last time you protested the killing of ants and spiders?

This is no more than a superiority complex and totalitarianism. A "creator" should have a greater responsibility than to act without cause or reason. Beside a lot of people protest when animal habitats are destroyed for housing, commercial and industrial developments. If you want a dictator for a god then by all means you can. However lets not pretend your view is the only one nor others should accept these views by the fact you do.

 

[leibowde84]

You see what I mean, this is your feeling that the religious person has not been empowered by God, I have no problem with what you are saying but you should recognize that in your mind "the state" has the authority to Kill for whatever it is offended about and you can get the death penalty for simply sharing "state" secrets, so hurting the feelings of the state can have dire consequences

That is because citizens enter into a binding social contract with their government, or The State. Citizens, as such, are required to adhere to the laws of the State, and will be severely punished for doing things that might harm the State and its citizens.

Contrarily, non-Muslims do not have any requirement to acknowledge or adhere to a contract which, to them, may or may not exist with a God who may or may not exist. To expect anyone to even consider such a contract as paramount to the social contract which binds everyone in a community is completely unreasonable. So, Muslims are more than welcome to believe in a contract with God, but there cannot be any kind of requirement for non-Muslims to care about that contract ... as it does not apply to them in any way.

Also, it is extremely important to recognize that, unlike race or native nationality, religion is a choice. It is a system of beliefs that one either does or does not adhere to, follow, or even pay any mind at all to. There is nothing about religious identity that makes a person more enlightened, and it is abhorent to think that one's beliefs put them in a better position with the Allmighty. To me, that is clearly insulting, but you do not seem to have an issue unless Islam is being insulted. Insulting America, Atheism, or someone's race is exactly the same as insulting Islam. It would be illogical and, imho, disgraceful to put religious beliefs on a pedestool to placate violent murderers.

 

[Haley]

In Afghanistan another innocent person was beaten to death for burning the Quran, Koran or however you spell it. There's a video of a guy burning the Koran in honor of the poor woman who was murdered by Islamic religious fanatics. Today I burned a Koran and will burn another one tomorrow. The Koran is just about the dumbest coIllection of untrue stories there is or ever was and Mohammad never even existed.

Islamic religious fanatics? Wait. Where did you come up with that conclusion. If you watch the video closely, you will see that the mob consists of mostly teenage boys with western outfits who seem to care less about their religion and more about Hollywood movies. We can come up with all kinds of theories sipping our coffees in front of our computers and or we can listen to what the people of Afghanistan, where this incident happened, have to say. Ready? here is what they think. The mob was organized by the Afghan government, a US puppet to prove to the US that its military presence in that country is absolutely necessary. Don't forget this incident happened in a time when the US was planning to withdraw its forces from Afghanistan and when the Afghan president was insisting on their staying. The biggest proof? The police was right there on the scene and did NOTHING to save the woman. And that's the whole point the government was trying to prove. "Our police and military are NOT capable of handling anything". This whole war is a pretty lucrative and dirty business. Now let's put the last piece of the puzzle. The woman herself was a practicing Muslim attending a religious school. You can check out her photos on the internet. Does it make sense to say some very religious Muslim men killed a very religious Muslim woman? Nope!!! It seems like for any drama to be successful in our time, it has to involve the Quran or Muhammad in some way. The funny thing is that the creators of these dramas don't even know that burning the Quran is not an offense in Islam. In fact, we are supposed to burn our Qurans when they are old and illegible

 

[Shad]

If they didn't care about their religion they wouldn't flip out over ink and paper nor put stock in what an Iman's claims.

The rest of your tin foil hat theory is nonsense as you have no sources backing up the claims.

 

[Bodhitharta]

I am saying that if God acts in that petty, selfish, foolhardy way, requiring people to kill other people to "defend his honor," that is a God that is not worth worshiping. Faith born of the fear of the risk of God's retribution is not only misguided, but also extremely dangerous.

News flash you are not God! Nor do you have any idea whatsoever what the point may be. You are most likely happy with all the creature comforts you have now, many of these things did not exist long ago and many people could not enjoy them after they became available, Fighting for rights is never bad

 

[Bodhitharta]

I think anyone intersted should look up the conflict.
Most sources I've read say this war was about ethnicity and politics with religion playing a large part of
identifying ethnicity.
The horrible crimes committed on both (or all of the) side pale in comparison to what is currently happening in
the M.E. where muslims incinerate Christians wholesale.
Your point is valid however but subject to the real root causes of the autrocities committed on both (or many) sides
of that idiotic conflict.

Pale in comparison? Genocide never pales

 

[jeager106]

Pale in comparison? Genocide never pales

Yes, of course you are quite right.

 

[Ouroboros]

How petty and small is your god and his prophets if you think you need to defend him by harming people? If your god is the God of the universe, the Creator and the Ruler, then He doesn't any little human to use violence to defend His honor.

See? That's why I like you. We think alike in many things.

This is something I realized many years ago while I was still Christian. I just couldn't understand the violent religious activists. I believe they have weak faith, and that's why they do it. They feel such deep doubts that the only way they can save themselves is to eradicate anyone with an opinion that can threaten their weak beliefs. The story about Jesus after all is about such a strong belief that a person is willing to die for it, not kill for it.

 

[Bodhitharta]

Yes, of course you are quite right.

Every time horrible acts occur depending on what side we are on we react a certain way and those who are believers always react the same

 

[Bodhitharta]

See? That's why I like you. We think alike in many things.

This is something I realized many years ago while I was still Christian. I just couldn't understand the violent religious activists. I believe they have weak faith, and that's why they do it. They feel such deep doubts that the only way they can save themselves is to eradicate anyone with an opinion that can threaten their weak beliefs. The story about Jesus after all is about such strong belief that a person is willing to die for it, not kill for it.

Just because you deplore violence you don't think there is a place for it? Apparently you actually never read the bible at some point you thought "whatever i don't like, must be valid and important" what if you decided not to like math would that suddenly change the values of integers? You are more violent than anyone if you think dying for something is a higher value than killing for it. Non-violent protest is magnitudes more violent than violent protest that is why it sometimes works because it is dependent on the barbarous acts of the opposition, it is far more peaceful if you have the capacity to challenge the violence of the opposition and make it clear that violence is only effective when it won't be met with overwhelming retaliation

 

[Ouroboros]

Just because you deplore violence you don't think there is a place for it?

Not for for enforcing one's one faith unto someone else. That's deplorable violence.

There are justified violence, sure, but to do it to push one's ideas and beliefs to someone else is not.

Apparently you actually never read the bible at some point you thought "whatever i don't like, must be valid and important" what if you decided not to like math would that suddenly change the values of integers?

? Uh... What? So if I'd change the values of integers, that means in your view that I suddenly have the right to violently make sure everyone accepts my views of integers? Why?

You are more violent than anyone if you think dying for something is a higher value than killing for it.

You have very strange views. So you think that a person who kills other people for his or her personal views is a better and more moral person than someone who doesn't? You're kind'a scary, you know. You're the kind of person I would not want within a 50 mile radius of my home.

Non-violent protest is magnitudes more violent than violent protest that is why it sometimes works because it is dependent on the barbarous acts of the opposition, it is far more peaceful if you have the capacity to challenge the violence of the opposition and make it clear that violence is only effective when it won't be met with overwhelming retaliation

...

That just didn't make any sense at all...

I'm going to correct my statement above, I wouldn't want you in a 1,000 mile radius from where I live. And I'm think it's not even safe to talk to you any further.

 

[Ouroboros]

Apparently you actually never read the bible at some point you thought "whatever i don't like, must be valid and important" what if you decided not to like math would that suddenly change the values of integers?

Wait. I get the feeling you think I'm a Christian. Is that it? I used to be, but I'm not anymore. I deplore the violence, hate laws, and such from Christians as much as deplore it coming from Muslims. Neither group, not even Jews, have the right to enforce their beliefs on others. Doesn't matter which religion, we have grown to a higher level of moral code, above religion, in the secular society, and religious violence is only taking us back to medieval times. We should be past the brutish mindset, but obviously we're not.

 

[Bodhitharta]

Wait. I get the feeling you think I'm a Christian. Is that it? I used to be, but I'm not anymore. I deplore the violence, hate laws, and such from Christians as much as deplore it coming from Muslims. Neither group, not even Jews, have the right to enforce their beliefs on others. Doesn't matter which religion, we have grown to a higher level of moral code, above religion, in the secular society, and religious violence is only taking us back to medieval times. We should be past the brutish mindset, but obviously we're not.

No it doesn't matter if you are a Christian or secular the fact is regardless of religion violence is a very real part of life on this planet obviously a part that you have had the opportunity not to come too much into contact with but you neglect the understanding that not everyone gets to avoid those conflicts so your condescending attitude towards the victims of violence is understandable and violence is oppression and yes slaughter is better than oppression, that may sound horrible to someone who doesn't understand Slavery/dictators or supremacist whatever doesn't bother your world of basic comfort is acceptable

 

[Ouroboros]

No it doesn't matter if you are a Christian or secular the fact is regardless of religion violence is a very real part of life on this planet obviously a part

Sure.

that you have had the opportunity not to come too much into contact with

Which is your assumption. You know nothing about me.

but you neglect the understanding that not everyone gets to avoid those conflicts so your condescending attitude towards the victims of violence

What??? I didn't blame the victims. I reject the violence by the perpetrator, not the violence acted upon the victim.

Where the heck did you get that idea from?

is understandable

No. It's not understandable to you because you clearly got some crazy idea that I'm condescending the victims of violence when I'm rejecting the violence by the perpetrators. You're the one glorifying violence, not me. You're the one who condescend the victims by being glorifying violence for religions sake only.

and violence is oppression and yes slaughter is better than oppression, that may sound horrible to someone who doesn't understand Slavery/dictators or supremacist whatever doesn't bother your world of basic comfort is acceptable

If you're oppressed, then violence can most definitely be the only solution to get out of it. That would be violence that can be justified. But killing a cartoonist is not trying to get out of oppression. There's a miles difference between these things.