Is Islam "untrue"?

[Aamer]

I think all religions, including Hinduism and ancient pagan religions originally came from God. But humans tend to change the message and incorporate self serving man made laws and idol worship into Gods truth. It doesn't surprise me at all that Hindu scriptures contain scientific miracles and wisdom.

Quran
[2:213] The people used to be one nation, then God sent the prophets as bearers of good news and as warners, and He sent down with them the book with the facts so that they may judge between the people in what they were disputing. But after receiving the proof, the people disputed in it due to animosity between them. God guided those who acknowledged with His permission regarding what they disputed in of the truth. God guides whoever/whomever (He) wishes to a straight path.

The Quran wasn't the only book God sent. He sent many. But the Quran is the only one that remains intact today, untouched by dirty human hands.

 

[egcroc]

Pick one and explain to us how it is more clear and obvious than what was mentioned in the quran.

i asked you for one,just pick the most lovely one for you.

here you go


"Earth rotates in two ways by the Will of Brahama, first it rotates on its axis secondly it revolves around sun. Days and Nights are distinguished when moves on its axis. Season change when it revolves around Sun". (Vishnu Puran)

Can it get any more elaborate than this, using the same islamic logic, this must be the true word of good, how could the ancient indians possibly know these scientific facts thousands of years before christ*... there's no doubt the Veda is the true word of god

*Ignoring the fact that the indians and the chinese actually had some of the first and most technologically advanced civilizations of human history


See what I did there?

:camp:
Peace,

 

[egcroc]

Because it is english forum.


gash
- make a cut or make a long narrow cuts in something ,cut means separation
- to split; cut into two or come apart ,means separtion
- to cut with scissors or shears;make short or neat;cut off wool(from a sheep) or omit,abbreviate,etc,sounds of ,cut the universe with a scissor but still means separation
- to get or make a crack or cracks, a crack between heaven and earth while both were joined together.
- to make an opening, incision; separate; remove from something larger; divide or separate into two ,separation
- to slit open; split ,separation
- make a hole by digging ,can't apply to the universe
- to split or crack,separation
- to tear skin or flesh with something sharp,separation
- make cuts,cut something,means separation
- tear something apart forcibly; split ,separation
- make or become split, cracked, etc, separation
- divide or make a hole in something by pulling sharply ,separation
- crack; split; cut; make incisions into ,separation
- split or tear apart violently, split wood or stone, be split ,separaion
- unsew; unstitch, separation
- undo the sewing of separation
- crack, break , rend separation
- break open separation
- to rip, tear, rend; be or get torn separation
- to pull apart or to pieces with some force separation
- to destroy something by breaking it into small pieces . separation
- undo the stitches of separation
- remove the fleece from a sheep, etc. ; shear separation
- to prick or cut open with a lancet separation

So all the explanation for the word means separating



No, the meaning is clear to me when it says the universe was joined together before separation.



There is no magic,the verses are clear enough and the argument of twisting is a false pretext

bottom line to just end this, if you look up the verses that you brought in Tafsir books you'll find that the interpretations you brought up is just one of several, yet you insist it's the right one even thouigh I brought you other ones that speak otherwise... so here's the deal, bring me just one verse that speaks in a clear language and delivering a single clear meaning which is agreed upon by the tafsir books as well as Arabic dictionaries, then we'll talk...

:camp:
Peace,

 

[FearGod]

here you go


"Earth rotates in two ways by the Will of Brahama, first it rotates on its axis secondly it revolves around sun. Days and Nights are distinguished when moves on its axis. Season change when it revolves around Sun". (Vishnu Puran)

Can it get any more elaborate than this, using the same islamic logic, this must be the true word of good, how could the ancient indians possibly know these scientific facts thousands of years before christ*... there's no doubt the Veda is the true word of god

*Ignoring the fact that the indians and the chinese actually had some of the first and most technologically advanced civilizations of human history


See what I did there?

:camp:
Peace,

True,those words is a divine ones as no one could have such informations before such a time.

Indeed, We sent forth among every nation a Messenger,; saying: Serve you God, and eschew idols. Then some. of them God guided, and some were justly disposed to error. So journey in the land, and behold how was the end of them that cried lies. (16:36)

We have revealed to thee as We revealed to Noah, and the Prophets after him, and We revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, Jesus and Job, Jonah and Aaron and Solomon, and We gave to David Psalms, (4:163)

and Messengers We have already told thee of before, and Messengers We have not told thee of; and unto Moses God spoke directly -- (4:164)

So the quran mentioned that god sent messengers to all nations,so we are talking about the same God,the creator of our universe,but i believe that people is misleaded because of their evil acts.

 

[FearGod]

bottom line to just end this, if you look up the verses that you brought in Tafsir books you'll find that the interpretations you brought up is just one of several, yet you insist it's the right one even thouigh I brought you other ones that speak otherwise... so here's the deal, bring me just one verse that speaks in a clear language and delivering a single clear meaning which is agreed upon by the tafsir books as well as Arabic dictionaries, then we'll talk...

:camp:
Peace,

i don't care how others explain the verses,i know arabic very well and i understand what it says.

The verse of discussion

(21:30)
أَوَلَمْ يَرَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا أَنَّ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ كَانَتَا رَتْقًا فَفَتَقْنَاهُمَا وَجَعَلْنَا مِنَ الْمَاءِ كُلَّ شَيْءٍ حَيٍّ أَفَلَا يُؤْمِنُونَ

Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them, and we made every living thing of water? Will they not then believe? (21:30)

All translations will mean one thing and which is that the universe was connected and made to be separated.

Other translations

ARE, THEN, they who are bent on denying the truth not aware that the heavens and the earth were [once] one single entity, which We then parted asunder? – and [that] We made out of water every living thing? Will they not, then, [begin to] believe? Muhammad Asad

Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe? Yusuf Ali (Orig. 1938)

Consider not those who were ungrateful that the heavens and the earth had been interwoven and We unstitched them? And We made every living thing of water. Will they, then, not believe? Dr. Laleh Bakhtiar

Do not those who deny the truth see that the heavens and the earth were joined together and that We then split them asunder? And that We have made every living thing out of water? Will they still not believe? Wahiduddin Khan

Have not the unbelievers then beheld that the heavens and the earth were a mass all sewn up, and then We unstitched them and of water fashioned every living thing? Will they not believe? Arthur John Arberry

Have those who rejected not seen that the heavens and the earth were one piece, so We split them apart? And that We have made from the water everything that lives. Will they not believe? Free Minds (2013 Edition)

For word by word translation,pls check here

 

[Aamer]

FearGod,
Those who don't want to see it, will never see it. Even if it is flashing in bright lights right in front of their faces. There's no point in trying to convince them. They've already made up their minds and logic plays no role in their decision. Peace!

 

[McBell]

FearGod,
Those who don't want to see it, will never see it. Even if it is flashing in bright lights right in front of their faces. There's no point in trying to convince them. They've already made up their minds and logic plays no role in their decision. Peace!

Kettle, meet pot.

 

[FearGod]

Kettle, meet pot.

Mestemia,meet egcroc

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Are we really comparing ancient religious text to say that the are scientific?

 

[LuisDantas]

FearGod,
Those who don't want to see it, will never see it. Even if it is flashing in bright lights right in front of their faces. There's no point in trying to convince them. They've already made up their minds and logic plays no role in their decision. Peace!

It just looks like usual criteria for deciding whether Islam is true are not particularly compatible with logical thinking.

This is not even a criticism of Islam, or of the Quran or of Muslims. It is not reasonable to expect to convince anyone logically of the existence of Abraham's God, much less of the truth of a specific Faith based on it.

I wish I had a better understanding of why many Muslims feel otherwise and even seem to value attempting to convince others that Islam is rational, even scientific.

I just don't see a leg for such a statement to stand in. Nor a need for it to, either; Islam does not need to be rational, much less "scientific".

Personally, I would much rather see it spend a bit more effort at clarifying its own adherents about the meaning and consequences of religious diversity and tolerance.

 

[Riverwolf]

True,those words is a divine ones as no one could have such informations before such a time.

Why not?

 

[Riverwolf]

They've already made up their minds and logic plays no role in their decision.

Ever see a truth table?

 

[FearGod]

Why not?

Because it wasn't observable by eyes.

So it will be only a guess work,but i don't believe on such a lucky guess as i don't believe on random mutation that caused our ancestors of monkeys to evolve to humans.

Sorry,i don't believe on magic and guesses to become facts.

 

[egcroc]

i don't care how others explain the verses,i know arabic very well and i understand what it says.

The verse of discussion

(21:30)
أَوَلَمْ يَرَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا أَنَّ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ كَانَتَا رَتْقًا فَفَتَقْنَاهُمَا وَجَعَلْنَا مِنَ الْمَاءِ كُلَّ شَيْءٍ حَيٍّ أَفَلَا يُؤْمِنُونَ

Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them, and we made every living thing of water? Will they not then believe? (21:30)

All translations will mean one thing and which is that the universe was connected and made to be separated.

Other translations

ARE, THEN, they who are bent on denying the truth not aware that the heavens and the earth were [once] one single entity, which We then parted asunder? – and [that] We made out of water every living thing? Will they not, then, [begin to] believe? Muhammad Asad

Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe? Yusuf Ali (Orig. 1938)

Consider not those who were ungrateful that the heavens and the earth had been interwoven and We unstitched them? And We made every living thing of water. Will they, then, not believe? Dr. Laleh Bakhtiar

Do not those who deny the truth see that the heavens and the earth were joined together and that We then split them asunder? And that We have made every living thing out of water? Will they still not believe? Wahiduddin Khan

Have not the unbelievers then beheld that the heavens and the earth were a mass all sewn up, and then We unstitched them and of water fashioned every living thing? Will they not believe? Arthur John Arberry

Have those who rejected not seen that the heavens and the earth were one piece, so We split them apart? And that We have made from the water everything that lives. Will they not believe? Free Minds (2013 Edition)

For word by word translation,pls check here

you know?, you sound exactly as I used to be a few years back when I was on your side and debated those miracles with a jew and felt very angry and offended when he wouldn't accept what I believed was the clear and self explanatory...and just like you I told him he was being just stubborn and refusing to see the obvious truth, it's ironic how history repeats itself with me on the opposite side this time

As I told you before, bring me one "miracle" verse that speaks in a direct, clear and elaborate language (like the vedic one for example) and has one single interpretation in all the Tafsir books, then we'll talk...

True,those words is a divine ones as no one could have such informations before such a time.

Indeed, We sent forth among every nation a Messenger,; saying: Serve you God, and eschew idols. Then some. of them God guided, and some were justly disposed to error. So journey in the land, and behold how was the end of them that cried lies. (16:36)

We have revealed to thee as We revealed to Noah, and the Prophets after him, and We revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, Jesus and Job, Jonah and Aaron and Solomon, and We gave to David Psalms, (4:163)

and Messengers We have already told thee of before, and Messengers We have not told thee of; and unto Moses God spoke directly -- (4:164)

So the quran mentioned that god sent messengers to all nations,so we are talking about the same God,the creator of our universe,but i believe that people is misleaded because of their evil acts.

Wow, just like that... so your logic is that the mere existence of some scientific facts in any ancient script can be considered as proof for its "Divinity", we'll come back to that... For now let me ask you some question... so why don't you just embrace the Hindu religion and start reciting mantras for Vishnu and his incarnation lord Krishna... in fact how can you tell the difference between the original divine text and the altered one?!!!

another thing, What if I told you that there are also "scientific miracles" in the bible? sure you'll reply that it's of divine origin too, but I thought muslims believed that it's not the original holy script and that it's been altered and changed... so how do you know the original from the Fake??!!

:camp:
Peace,

 

[FearGod]

you know?, you sound exactly as I used to be a few years back when I was on your side and debated those miracles with a jew and felt very angry and offended when he wouldn't accept what I believed was the clear and self explanatory...and just like you I told him he was being just stubborn and refusing to see the obvious truth, it's ironic how history repeats itself with me on the opposite side this time

No,i aint angry,i jus inform you what i believe is right and it isn't of my own business what you want to believe.

As I told you before, bring me one "miracle" verse that speaks in a direct, clear and elaborate language (like the vedic one for example) and has one single interpretation in all the Tafsir books, then we'll talk...

No need to show you any verse,search yourself,if you found it not convincing,then that is your choice.

Wow, just like that... so your logic is that the mere existence of some scientific facts in any ancient script can be considered as proof for its "Divinity", we'll come back to that... For now let me ask you some question... so why don't you just embrace the Hindu religion and start reciting mantras for Vishnu and his incarnation lord Krishna... in fact how can you tell the difference between the original divine text and the altered one?!!!

Do you want me to go back to the stone age while i have the last message of the same God.

another thing, What if I told you that there are also "scientific miracles" in the bible? sure you'll reply that it's of divine origin too, but I thought muslims believed that it's not the original holy script and that it's been altered and changed... so how do you know the original from the Fake??!!

:camp:
Peace,

i said before the signs is for the believers as a hint or a gesture,
if one person love sex out of marriage,then why he has to choose Islam,
if one person love wine,then why he has to choose Islam.

Will you tell your girlfriend that there are scientific facts in the quran which show some proofs that Islam is true and we have to be separated or to be married,but sorry im not planning for marriage by now.

So i believe you choose your own religion by what you think is right for you.

For me,i hate wine,i hate prostitutes,i hate liars,i hate oppressors and i love Islam.

 

[egcroc]

No,i aint angry,i jus inform you what i believe is right and it isn't of my own business what you want to believe.

sure whatever you want

No need to show you any verse,search yourself,if you found it not convincing,then that is your choice.

and why do you presume that I didn't, as I told you before the "scientific miracles" were my #1 interest in islam, but after some reconsideration, it turned out for me to be just a bubble that burst very quickly

Do you want me to go back to the stone age while i have the last message of the same God.

...using your same logic, do you want me to go back to the middle ages when I can simply embrace Babism, Baha'i faith, Ahmed ism, Mormonism, Scientology, Unitarian Universalism, New Age, Freakin' Kopimism (established 2012 in norway btw).... etc.

if one person love sex out of marriage,then why he has to choose Islam,
if one person love wine,then why he has to choose Islam.

Will you tell your girlfriend that there are scientific facts in the quran which show some proofs that Islam is true and we have to be separated or to be married,but sorry im not planning for marriage by now.

x2... what does this have to do with anything, why do always assume that people leave islam because they wanna get drunk and have some sexy time, can't they just have fun and then repent?!!! I did leave islam but I didn't turn into that bad person in your head, I do not drink wine, I prefer fresh fruit juice to go with my lunch.. I do not hook up prostitutes and I have no girlfriend... I still love my parents and would do anything to make them pleased, I would even take my mom to pilgrimage in Mecca despite my disbelief only to give an old woman some happiness and spiritual peace....

For me,i hate wine,i hate prostitutes,i hate liars,i hate oppressors.

believe it or not buddy, that's also the case with almost every other religion on earth (except maybe the wine part) that still doesn't mean they're true

:camp:
Peace,

 

[McBell]

*edit*

Is this to mean you still do not understand?

 

[FearGod]

Is this to mean you still do not understand?

Why you think so ?

 

[FearGod]

and why do you presume that I didn't, as I told you before the "scientific miracles" were my #1 interest in islam, but after some reconsideration, it turned out for me to be just a bubble that burst very quickly

It is your choice then.

...using your same logic, do you want me to go back to the middle ages when I can simply embrace Babism, Baha'i faith, Ahmed ism, Mormonism, Scientology, Unitarian Universalism, New Age, Freakin' Kopimism (established 2012 in norway btw).... etc.

Since i trust the quran,then i believe that no messenger will appear except the return of Jesus christ.

x2... what does this have to do with anything, why do always assume that people leave islam because they wanna get drunk and have some sexy time, can't they just have fun and then repent?!!! I did leave islam but I didn't turn into that bad person in your head, I do not drink wine, I prefer fresh fruit juice to go with my lunch.. I do not hook up prostitutes and I have no girlfriend... I still love my parents and would do anything to make them pleased, I would even take my mom to pilgrimage in Mecca despite my disbelief only to give an old woman some happiness and spiritual peace.... [

OK,thats great that you are such a good person.

believe it or not buddy, that's also the case with almost every other religion on earth (except maybe the wine part) that still doesn't mean they're true

:camp:
Peace,

We got no evidence,but when you can see the future that told before more than 1000 years happening now and in front of your eyes,then im satisfied with those evidences.

 

[McBell]

Why you think so ?

Huh?
I do not "think so" one way or the other.
I was asking for clarification.