Is Islam "untrue"?

[Caladan]

i don't believe that the prophet reached Jerusalem by flying steed,the quran didn't mention the means of transportation.

Like I said earlier, Quran, Hadith or Sunnah, it matters not the source.

but how miracles work can't be understood by us.

That is your opinion, I don't believe in supernatural miracles.

One example is the born of Jesus christ.

Nonsense. But thank you for proving my point about what taking myths at face value looks like.

Even our existance is kind of miracle,a tiny sperm that grow in the womb to be a human being,a tiny seed that grow to be a huge tree holding a tasty fruits,a dog that can trace a person just by recognizing the scent through long distances.

That is a miracle only in the metaphorical sense.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

The Bible denies the trinity as well.

Not so ...It does not mention it at all.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

No,The Caliphate is the stage after the end of the era of tyrants.

Please explain what you mean by this.

 

[FearGod]

Please explain what you mean by this.

The end regimes of Mubarak,Gadafi,Zine El Abidine,Ali Abdullah Saleh and soon Bashar Al Asad.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The end regimes of Mubarak,Gadafi,Zine El Abidine,Ali Abdullah Saleh and soon Bashar Al Asad.

So you mean after these Tyrants, khalifeh shall come?

 

[danieldemol]

No,The Caliphate is the stage after the end of the era of tyrants.

By this do you mean simply that the caliphate follows the Mahdi?

 

[FearGod]

So you mean after these Tyrants, khalifeh shall come?

By this do you mean simply that the caliphate follows the Mahdi?

There is 2 signs prior to the Khilafa and for the appearance of A lMahdi which will indicate that the world is close to it's end.

Abu Nadhrah says: "We were sitting in the company of Jabir son of Abdullah when he said: 'Soon the people of Iraq will neither receive any food (grain) nor any money.'" We asked, "Why would such a thing happen?" He replied, "Because of the non-Arabs." He then said: "Soon the people of (Syria) will neither receive any money nor grain." We asked as to why this would happen. He replied: "Because of the Romans." (At-Taj, Ali Nâsif al-Hussein)

 

[danieldemol]

So basically you are saying the Mahdi comes after the end of some tyrants and not all tyrants?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

There is 2 signs prior to the Khilafa and for the appearance of A lMahdi which will indicate that the world is close to it's end.

Abu Nadhrah says: "We were sitting in the company of Jabir son of Abdullah when he said: 'Soon the people of Iraq will neither receive any food (grain) nor any money.'" We asked, "Why would such a thing happen?" He replied, "Because of the non-Arabs." He then said: "Soon the people of (Syria) will neither receive any money nor grain." We asked as to why this would happen. He replied: "Because of the Romans." (At-Taj, Ali Nâsif al-Hussein)

By the way, this is not from Muhammad. But anyways...
So how do you know when the Mahdi comes He brings back Caliphat?

 

[FearGod]

By the way, this is not from Muhammad. But anyways...
So how do you know when the Mahdi comes He brings back Caliphat?

No it's foretold by the prophet as a sign for the approaching of the end times on earth

Abu Huraira said that Allah's Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم said: "Iraq will withhold its dirhams and qafiz; Syria will withhold its mudd and dinar and Egypt will withhold its irdab and dinar. You will return to that position from where you started. You will return to that position from where you started. The flesh and blood of Abu Huraira bears testimony to it." (Sahih Muslim)

Reference: End Time Wars

 

[Aamer]

No it's foretold by the prophet as a sign for the approaching of the end times on earth

Abu Huraira said that Allah's Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم said: "Iraq will withhold its dirhams and qafiz; Syria will withhold its mudd and dinar and Egypt will withhold its irdab and dinar. You will return to that position from where you started. You will return to that position from where you started. The flesh and blood of Abu Huraira bears testimony to it." (Sahih Muslim)

Reference: End Time Wars

There was no Syria or Egypt at that time. I haven't researched this Hadith but what's the exact wording? And even though I don't accept Hadith as part of Islam, I do recognize that Prophet Muhammad was a human being and not just a robot who recited verses of Quran. What intrigues me is that the first four stages of the prophecy have happened as prophesied. And there are multiple chains of narration so there's a pretty good chance that the Prophet did indeed say this. So the fifth stage, the united caliphate, is probably going to happen. But if you study all Hadith regarding this matter... You will find that the Mahdi is not supposed to come until there is a conflict after the death of a Khalifa in the fifth stage which will lead to a split and conflict. Having said that, I'm not sure how much of this is true, if any. I don't even know if there will be a Mahdi or not. But I like to keep an open mind. What I do know though is that God gives us hints. But things, throughout history, have NEVER happened exactly the way the masses expected them to. Just look at Jesus or Muhammad (aka Ahmed in the biblical prophecy). So keep an open mind. Whatever your sect is telling you... Is probably a little off. That's not me. That's history, Gods Sunnah (way) talking. Peace!

 

[FearGod]

There was no Syria or Egypt at that time. I haven't researched this Hadith but what's the exact wording? And even though I don't accept Hadith as part of Islam, I do recognize that Prophet Muhammad was a human being and not just a robot who recited verses of Quran. What intrigues me is that the first four stages of the prophecy have happened as prophesied. And there are multiple chains of narration so there's a pretty good chance that the Prophet did indeed say this. So the fifth stage, the united caliphate, is probably going to happen. But if you study all Hadith regarding this matter... You will find that the Mahdi is not supposed to come until there is a conflict after the death of a Khalifa in the fifth stage which will lead to a split and conflict. Having said that, I'm not sure how much of this is true, if any. I don't even know if there will be a Mahdi or not. But I like to keep an open mind. What I do know though is that God gives us hints. But things, throughout history, have NEVER happened exactly the way the masses expected them to. Just look at Jesus or Muhammad (aka Ahmed in the biblical prophecy). So keep an open mind. Whatever your sect is telling you... Is probably a little off. That's not me. That's history, Gods Sunnah (way) talking. Peace!

i believe that there are many ahadith which are false and i refuse many of them,but some ahadith are impressive such as this one telling the future before it happens more than one thousand years ago.

Egypt was known and mentioned in the quran the same way as in the hadith,but yes for Syria,it was called AlSham,and Syria till this day is called Alsham,but was larger in size than today since Lebanon,Jordan were among it's territory.

(12:99)فَلَمَّا دَخَلُوا عَلَىٰ يُوسُفَ آوَىٰ إِليْهِ أَبَوَيْهِ وَقَالَ ادْخُلُوا مِصْرَ إِنْ شَاءَ اللَّهُ آمِنِينَ

AND WHEN they [all arrived in Egypt and] presented themselves before Joseph, he drew his parents unto himself, saying, "Enter Egypt! If God so wills, you shall be secure [from all evil]!" (12:99)

The Hadith in Arabic and in English

‏حَدَّثَنَا ‏ ‏عُبَيْدُ بْنُ يَعِيشَ ‏ ‏وَإِسْحَقُ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ ‏ ‏وَاللَّفْظُ ‏ ‏لِعُبَيْدٍ ‏ ‏قَالَا حَدَّثَنَا ‏ ‏يَحْيَى بْنُ آدَمَ بْنِ سُلَيْمَانَ ‏ ‏مَوْلَى ‏ ‏خَالِدِ بْنِ خَالِدٍ ‏ ‏حَدَّثَنَا ‏ ‏زُهَيْرٌ ‏ ‏عَنْ ‏ ‏سُهَيْلِ بْنِ أَبِي صَالِحٍ ‏ ‏عَنْ ‏ ‏أَبِيهِ ‏ ‏عَنْ ‏ ‏أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ ‏ ‏قَالَ ‏
‏قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ ‏ ‏صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ ‏ ‏مَنَعَتْ ‏ ‏الْعِرَاقُ ‏ ‏دِرْهَمَهَا ‏ ‏وَقَفِيزَهَا ‏ ‏وَمَنَعَتْ ‏ ‏الشَّأْمُ ‏ ‏مُدْيَهَا ‏ ‏وَدِينَارَهَا وَمَنَعَتْ ‏ ‏مِصْرُ ‏ ‏إِرْدَبَّهَا ‏ ‏وَدِينَارَهَا وَعُدْتُمْ مِنْ حَيْثُ بَدَأْتُمْ وَعُدْتُمْ مِنْ حَيْثُ بَدَأْتُمْ وَعُدْتُمْ مِنْ حَيْثُ بَدَأْتُمْ شَهِدَ عَلَى ذَلِكَ لَحْمُ ‏ ‏أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ ‏ ‏وَدَمُه ​

Abu Huraira said that Allah's Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم said: "Iraq will withhold its dirhams and qafiz; Syria will withhold its mudd and dinar and Egypt will withhold its irdab and dinar. You will return to that position from where you started. You will return to that position from where you started. The flesh and blood of Abu Huraira bears testimony to it." (Sahih Muslim)

 

[egcroc]

Well, partly because of the so called "scientific miracles" of the Quran. Also historians have proven that the Quran is the only holy scripture, which has not been altered throughout history.

greetings 29dall, I used to be a muslim too, and like you I had doubts and questions, and believe it or not, just like your case, the so-called "scientific miracles" was one of the few thin threads that kept me attached to islam, when that thread was cut after some research, the decision to leave islam became a lot easier for me... you need to do your own research and re-evaluate those 'miracles' from a different point of view and you'll find out that that they're just normal verses whose interpretation and meaning gets twisted by zaghlool elnagar and other crooks to make them resemble some scientific facts that's all...

another thing, what if I told you that the Veda-Hindus' holy script- contains scientific miracles too, and unlike the Quran, they're mentioned in clear and vivid verses that do not need any further interpretations, what would you do?!!! just look up "Scientific Miracles in Hindu Scriptures..must see!!" in this forum and prepare for the shock

:camp:
Peace,

 

[FearGod]

greetings 29dall, I used to be a muslim too, and like you I had doubts and questions, and believe it or not, just like your case, the so-called "scientific miracles" was one of the few thin threads that kept me attached to islam, when that thread was cut after some research, the decision to leave islam became a lot easier for me... you need to do your own research and re-evaluate those 'miracles' from a different point of view and you'll find out that that they're just normal verses whose interpretation and meaning gets twisted by zaghlool elnagar and other crooks to make them resemble some scientific facts that's all...

another thing, what if I told you that the Veda-Hindus' holy script- contains scientific miracles too, and unlike the Quran, they're mentioned in clear and vivid verses that do not need any further interpretations, what would you do?!!! just look up "Scientific Miracles in Hindu Scriptures..must see!!" in this forum and prepare for the shock

:camp:
Peace,

if the hindus already have such scientific informations in their book then why you are saying that zaghlool elnagar had twisted the quranic verses to match science.

When the quran explicitly says that the universe was one entity (one piece) and that the creator made it to expand.

Then what we have to twist,it is self explanatory.

it is up to you what religion you want to follow but your argument is invalid here.

 

[egcroc]

if the hindus already have such scientific informations in their book then why you are sying that zaghlool elnagar had twisted the quranic verses to match science.

I'm only saying that it's the same game practiced by hindus just like muslims do, it's not like I'm going to take a dip in the ganges and start chanting "Hare Krishna" because of these verses (which are in fact a lot more elaborate and straightforward than the vague quranic verses which can hold several meanings)... you can look up the thread and see for yourself

When the quran says explicitly that the universe was one entity (one piece) and that the creator made it to expand.

Then what we have to twist,it is self explanatory.

it is up to you what religion you want to follow but your argument is invalid here

do you realize that you're talking to a native arabic speaker here?!!!
1- the verse you brought is translated all wrong, the literal translation For Ratk and Fatk (the two original words from the verse) from Lisan al-Arab is Stitch or sew for Ratk and cleavage for Fatk, I think that should deliver the true meaning but there are some more elaborations from the old tafsir books that say the verse describes both the heavens and the earth separately, the "Fatk" in the heaven is meant to be rain while the Fatk for the Earth is its faults
2- the word Muse'on which you translated as expansion also means capability or Capacity, so it could mean to say god is omnipotent for creating such a majestic heaven, or we can go for the more common tafsir found in islamic books that says god made it immensely vast and spacious

Bottom line is, the Quranic Language is vague and can hold several meanings, stop trying to cherry-pick just one meaning and shove it down our throats like it's the ultimate truth and then get offended when we spit it out, believe me I know how bad that feels because-believe it or not- I used to be in your shoes one day


:camp:
Peace,

 

[FearGod]

I'm only saying that it's the same game practiced by hindus just like muslims do, it's not like I'm going to take a dip in the ganges and start chanting "Hare Krishna" because of these verses (which are in fact a lot more elaborate and straightforward than the vague quranic verses which can hold several meanings)... you can look up the thread and see for yourself

Show us one example from the hindus book.

do you realize that you're talking to a native arabic speaker here?!!!
1- the verse you brought is translated all wrong, the literal translation For Ratk and Fatk (the two original words from the verse) from Lisan al-Arab is Stitch or sew for Ratk and cleavage for Fatk, I think that should deliver the true meaning but there are some more elaborations from the old tafsir books that say the verse describes both the heavens and the earth separately, the "Fatk" in the heaven is meant to be rain while the Fatk for the Earth is its faults
2- the word Muse'on which you translated as expansion also means capability or Capacity, so it could mean to say god is omnipotent for creating such a majestic heaven, or we can go for the more common tafsir found in islamic books that says god made it immensely vast and spacious

Bottom line is, the Quranic Language is vague and can hold several meanings, stop trying to cherry-pick just one meaning and shove it down our throats like it's the ultimate truth and then get offended when we spit it out, believe me I know how bad that feels because-believe it or not- I used to be in your shoes one day


:camp:
Peace,

i am a native arabic speaker too.

For the word Ratq it means "joined together" and can be separated at any time and can be joined together once again,similar to 2 pieces of cloths that joined together as one piece and then this one piece can be separated

Find the meaning of Ratqa here
Find the meaning for Fatq here

So again your argument is invalid as the verse showing the universe were connected together and separated is very clear and self explanatory.

AND IT IS We who have built the universe with [Our creative] power; and, verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it. (51:47)

(51:47)وَالسَّمَاءَ بَنَيْنَاهَا بِأَيْدٍ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ

You can check for the meaning of Muse'on موسع here


Similarly for expanding (لَمُوسِعُون&#1614is for the universe,so it is also self explanatory.

 

[egcroc]

i am a native arabic speaker too.

so why do you give me pages that translate arabic to English? , I think I know the meanings of my native language very well...

For the word Ratq it means "joined together" and can be separated at any time and can be joined together once again,similar to 2 pieces of cloths that joined together as one piece and then this one piece can be separated

Find the meaning of Ratqa
Find the meaning for Fatq

So again your argument is invalid as the verse showing the universe were connected together and separated is very clear and self explanatory.

the meaning of Fatqa from the very same source you brought me:

gash
- make a cut or make a long narrow cuts in something
- to split; cut into two or come apart
- to cut with scissors or shears;make short or neat;cut off wool(from a sheep) or omit,abbreviate,etc,sounds of
- to get or make a crack or cracks
- to make an opening, incision; separate; remove from something larger; divide or separate into two
- to slit open; split
- make a hole by digging
- to split or crack
- to tear skin or flesh with something sharp
- make cuts
- tear something apart forcibly; split
- make or become split, cracked, etc
- divide or make a hole in something by pulling sharply
- crack; split; cut; make incisions into
- split or tear apart violently, split wood or stone, be split
- unsew; unstitch
- undo the sewing of
- crack, break , rend
- break open
- to rip, tear, rend; be or get torn
- to pull apart or to pieces with some force
- to destroy something by breaking it into small pieces .
- undo the stitches of
- remove the fleece from a sheep, etc. ; shear
- to prick or cut open with a lancet

Besides I think you missed my main point, every verse, heck every single word in the Quran can hold several meanings, you look up the Tafsir for the same verse in the islamic books and you will find many different ones...

what the "miracle" business is actually doing is take some verse that resembles a discovered scientific fact and look up the different interpretations and then cherry pick the one that most corresponds with it, and even if that interpretation doesn't exist they will just twist the meaning and come up with a new one to eventually serve the purpose :bow:

 

[egcroc]

Show us one example from the hindus book.

not just one example, a whole thread courtesy of a fellow hindu on this very same forum, enjoy

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...tific-miracles-hindu-scriptures-must-see.html

 

[FearGod]

so why do you give me pages that translate arabic to English? , I think I know the meanings of my native language very well...

Because it is english forum.

the meaning of Fatqa from the very same source you brought me:

gash
- make a cut or make a long narrow cuts in something ,cut means separation
- to split; cut into two or come apart ,means separtion
- to cut with scissors or shears;make short or neat;cut off wool(from a sheep) or omit,abbreviate,etc,sounds of ,cut the universe with a scissor but still means separation
- to get or make a crack or cracks, a crack between heaven and earth while both were joined together.
- to make an opening, incision; separate; remove from something larger; divide or separate into two ,separation
- to slit open; split ,separation
- make a hole by digging ,can't apply to the universe
- to split or crack,separation
- to tear skin or flesh with something sharp,separation
- make cuts,cut something,means separation
- tear something apart forcibly; split ,separation
- make or become split, cracked, etc, separation
- divide or make a hole in something by pulling sharply ,separation
- crack; split; cut; make incisions into ,separation
- split or tear apart violently, split wood or stone, be split ,separaion
- unsew; unstitch, separation
- undo the sewing of separation
- crack, break , rend separation
- break open separation
- to rip, tear, rend; be or get torn separation
- to pull apart or to pieces with some force separation
- to destroy something by breaking it into small pieces . separation
- undo the stitches of separation
- remove the fleece from a sheep, etc. ; shear separation
- to prick or cut open with a lancet separation

So all the explanation for the word means separating

Besides I think you missed my main point, every verse, heck every single word in the Quran can hold several meanings, you look up the Tafsir for the same verse in the islamic books and you will find many different ones...

No, the meaning is clear to me when it says the universe was joined together before separation.

what the "miracle" business is actually doing is take some verse that resembles a discovered scientific fact and look up the different interpretations and then cherry pick the one that most corresponds with it, and even if that interpretation doesn't exist they will just twist the meaning and come up with a new one to eventually serve the purpose :bow:

There is no magic,the verses are clear enough and the argument of twisting is a false pretext

 

[FearGod]

not just one example, a whole thread courtesy of a fellow hindu on this very same forum, enjoy

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...tific-miracles-hindu-scriptures-must-see.html

Pick one and explain to us how it is more clear and obvious than what was mentioned in the quran.

i asked you for one,just pick the most lovely one for you.