Is it better to be a believer or an athiest?

[Ormiston]

okay i get what you're saying, i don't think that we will ever come to a consensus on this, but what about love? is that some chemical reaction?

Ahhhh, love. Everyone wants love....just kidding around. What about joy? What about sorrow? What about happiness? What the heck is love anyways? Why is it so special? Arn't these other emotions as important to us as love? Either they are all supernatural or none of them are supernatural. You pick. What about boredom or being angry. Are these chemical reactions, supernatural events, or a result of our consciousness? I pick number three. They are our perception and explanation induced by our entire physiological being and the environment in which it exists. It is all in our heads.

 

[sky87]

alright then. now this is going to be a hard idea to get across, but im gonna try. since i am a firm believer, to me supernatural is natural, do you get it? there is no such thing as "super" natural, because god is natural, we just can't see him, but we can feel him, god is there, anything that we can see or something that we know exists is natural to us, like a bird or an animal, they are all part of nature, well what about god? we can't see him, but we can see evidence of him everywhere! everything is so perfectly designed for the sustainance of life on earth, the sun gives perfect amounts of energy, every little atom is designed with such detail, where there is such detail there is intelligence, and where there is such a design there is a designer! just look at the big bang for instance, someone had to place that little unit there, the little unit which expanded into the universe we know of today. sure the little unit took a long time expanding, and you can say that that contradicts the bible or the qur'ans saying that the world was created in six days, but how do you know that our six days are equivalent to god's six days? they aren't, for example in islam one day during judgement day will be equal to many hundreds of a normal day on earth! just the idea of us being happy or being sad, there is a notion of life in there, when you say that its all just in our heads, it makes you feel almost "lifeless", to me something is alive when it has a soul, a spirit, and this spirit is created by a higher energy force, which is god.

 

[Majikthise]

It is all in our heads.

Or maybe our glands?

 

[Ormiston]

alright then. now this is going to be a hard idea to get across, but im gonna try. since i am a firm believer, to me supernatural is natural, do you get it? there is no such thing as "super" natural, because god is natural, we just can't see him, but we can feel him, god is there, anything that we can see or something that we know exists is natural to us, like a bird or an animal, they are all part of nature, well what about god? we can't see him, but we can see evidence of him everywhere! everything is so perfectly designed for the sustainance of life on earth, the sun gives perfect amounts of energy, every little atom is designed with such detail, where there is such detail there is intelligence, and where there is such a design there is a designer! just look at the big bang for instance, someone had to place that little unit there, the little unit which expanded into the universe we know of today. sure the little unit took a long time expanding, and you can say that that contradicts the bible or the qur'ans saying that the world was created in six days, but how do you know that our six days are equivalent to god's six days? they aren't, for example in islam one day during judgement day will be equal to many hundreds of a normal day on earth! just the idea of us being happy or being sad, there is a notion of life in there, when you say that its all just in our heads, it makes you feel almost "lifeless", to me something is alive when it has a soul, a spirit, and this spirit is created by a higher energy force, which is god.

I understand your thoughts. But I don't feel the same way. I did once, but that was with the aid of illegal substances. I actually like simply feeling alive. I don't feel lifeless without a soul or a God. I feel just simply blessed to be alive and that's more than good enough for me. Do religious folk have low self-esteem or something? Give yourselves a little respect. Enjoy being a human being and stop taking yourself for granted. It's nice to be alive. We're not perfect but we're not pitiful or sinful or any other such nonsense. I know that was somewhat rude and off-topic but it is how I feel, often.

 

[Majikthise]

I feel just simply blessed to be alive and that's more than good enough for me. .

Yes. :highfive:

 

[randb]

lol... This was just a thought... I'm not trying to change anyone's beliefs here.. I'm athiestic myself.

 

[roli]

So you would agree that insanity and halucinations are absolutely the greatest experiences possible because they produce limitless faith which inturn opens up mysteries and hidden secrets typically left closed to the sane? Some have self-respect for what we believe in.

I believe to be quite sane and am not a madman and therefore have no idea what sort of an experience insanity and halucinations would create as a matter of fact I'm not quite sure what relevance that has to do with this experience.
From your apparent antitheists perspective it is not unusual to hear such presuppositional and ignorant (lack of knowledge) jargon.
You seem to speak from a natural, humanistic perspective, as I once did,but as shocking as that may be God does not operate on your level of understanding or any man's for that matter.

Please read what the wisdom of the world is to God, HE laughs and scoffs at it all,so don't be surprised on that great and glorious day when you with your wisdom ,ideologies and philosophies are but mere excuses from a finite being.
1Cr 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1Cr 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
1Cr 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
1Cr 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
1Cr 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

IF your not looking for God you won't find Him and the experience and confirmation of that is not yours to be had or for that matter understand. God and his revealtion of himself to his people is not an equation that can be computed nor does it work on the level of logic as we all know logic to be.
If so he would be just another belief system.
It only comes to those who believe that Jesus died for your sins, it's at the sincere moment in the heart of that person that the Holy Spirit indwells that believer,but hey! most, if not all avoid ,deny,ignore ,refute etc the existence of God for many reasons, but the #1 reason why most do this is that they don't want their sins (violation of Gods Law) to be exposed, confronted and revealed

When I say expereince I don't mean a one time encounter eg: I went to church felt some hair stand up", I mean a supernatural encounter from God,that is based on love ,compassion forgiveness, and mercy

 

[Quiddity]

I don't discredit religious folks one bit! You're a religious guy and I think you're one of the greatest contributors to this website. My point is that it's all folks, religious or not, that should get the credit and not any one or the collective whole of religion. Giving thanks to God for us being here is fine with me but the "Giving thanks to God" is not what got us here.

Ormiston, I really thought you were trying to discredit religion. I read one of your previous post and tried to read it all in context.

And you credit religion!? I credit man.

I apologize for the misunderstanding if you meant otherwise and I agree.

Peace be with you.

 

[sky87]

I understand your thoughts. But I don't feel the same way. I did once, but that was with the aid of illegal substances. I actually like simply feeling alive. I don't feel lifeless without a soul or a God. I feel just simply blessed to be alive and that's more than good enough for me. Do religious folk have low self-esteem or something? Give yourselves a little respect. Enjoy being a human being and stop taking yourself for granted. It's nice to be alive. We're not perfect but we're not pitiful or sinful or any other such nonsense. I know that was somewhat rude and off-topic but it is how I feel, often.

you feel "blessed" to be alive? :sarcastic kinda awkward to say especially since you said that you didn't "feel" the same way..

 

[Ormiston]

you feel "blessed" to be alive? :sarcastic kinda awkward to say especially since you said that you didn't "feel" the same way..

We agree we both feel blessed but I don't agree that I feel God. Maybe I should have said that I feel lucky to be alive. Do we still feel the same way?

 

[sky87]

^ lol, okay well this is going to annoy you, but "lucky" is not the best word to say either, lucky = good fortune, fortune = an unknown and unpredictable phenomenon that leads to a favorable outcome, so what is that phenomenon? anyways, yes i feel blessed to be alive, now i'm going to ask you a question, because me being a religious person won't be able to answer it, how can you not believe in god? i have noticed that any person who goes too deep into science always tends to lose their faith, but what is it that makes them lose faith? dont take me wrong, i love science myself, but i haven't stumbled upon anything that would make me lose faith in god

 

[Atheist_Dave]

Sky, what have you seen to make you believe in god? What has given you the faith in the first place?

I have never seen anything that suggests to me that the bible or any other religious book is correct. I have never seen anything that suggests there is a God, everything is being explained, myth after myth has been destroyed by science. What makes you think any of the more modern myths are anything other than fiction?

Sure, I could believe for beliefs sake. I could live in accordance with so and so religion, hoping desperately that its the truth because Im so scared that I might just be a creature, the same as anything else. I could say "there must be more", but how much more do you want? The world is a beautiful place, there's no need to make us fairy tales to explain it, it has all the answers we need, we just need to LOOK.

Peace x

 

[Ormiston]

^ lol, okay well this is going to annoy you, but "lucky" is not the best word to say either, lucky = good fortune, fortune = an unknown and unpredictable phenomenon that leads to a favorable outcome, so what is that phenomenon? anyways, yes i feel blessed to be alive, now i'm going to ask you a question, because me being a religious person won't be able to answer it, how can you not believe in god? i have noticed that any person who goes too deep into science always tends to lose their faith, but what is it that makes them lose faith? dont take me wrong, i love science myself, but i haven't stumbled upon anything that would make me lose faith in god

I'm rarely annoyed by peoples' thoughts. It's only when they act like Religious Robots that I get annoyed and you seem to be putting quite a bit of thought into this discussion.

As far as "lucky", you use the word unknown. You're right! It is unknown to all of us. We all have beliefs and faith, but we are also all men/women and are apt to making mistakes and being wrong from time to time. I think religion and science are two completely different things and if science causes one to lose their faith then their faith wasn't very strong to begin with. I would think that it would be ludicrous to substiture one's religion with science. I would not actually see it as a substitution but as them quitting their religion to focus on science.

Finally, science had zero impact on the conclusions that I've drawn about my religious-like beliefs. Only religion, my own personal experiences, and my mind were factors in that. You also asked how I CANNOT believe in God. I can understand how it might be difficult or impossible to understand someone elses beliefs. I could try and explain it, but only if you're truly interested (and my post is already lengthy). Instead, understand that I do have a strong grasp of how someone might BELIEVE in God and I am simply different in that particular belief.

 

[sky87]

this is to answer atheistdave's post, first of all i'm a muslim, and i can give you a billion quotes from the qur'an which prove the existence of god. the qur'an was revealed 14 centuries ago, yet many of its statements are now being proven right, it had already stated the big bang, the expansion of the universe, the pairs in creation, human creation, etc; etc; Either we had a beginning or we didn't, If we do exist, there are only two possible explanations as to how our existence came to be. Either we had a beginning or we did not have a beginning. The Bible says, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" (Genesis 1 :1). The atheist has always maintained that there was no beginning. The idea is that matter has always existed in the form of either matter or energy; and all that has happened is that matter has been changed from form to form, but it has always been. The "Humanist Manifesto"says, "Matter is self-existing and not created," and that is a concise statement of the atheist's belief. I've given examples of many of the above from the qur'an already, so i'm going to switch to the second law of thermodynamics, In any closed system, things tend to become disordered. If an automobile is driven for years and years without repair, for example, it will become so disordered that it would not run any more. Getting old is simple conformity to the second law of thermodynamics. In space, things get old. Astronomers refer to the aging process as heat death. If the cosmos is "everything that ever was or is or ever will be," nothing could be added to it to improve its order or repair it. Even a universe that expands and collapses and expands again forever would die because it would lose light and heat each time it expanded and rebounded. The atheist's assertion that matter/energy is eternal is scientifically wrong. The biblical and qur'anic assertion that there was a beginning and an end is scientifically correct.

Now you asked me what i have seen to have such a strong belief in god, I haven't seen god of of course, but i have felt him through prayers, daily life, etc; How would you explain for mysterious phenomenon such as answered prayers? You think people are crazy when they tell you that they have seen spirits or other phenomenon, well if you told me something similar two to three years ago, i would laugh at you, but now I would understand, they aren't hallucinations, they're real, i wouldn't like to get into my personal experience however. But I have full belief in god.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

^ lol, okay well this is going to annoy you, but "lucky" is not the best word to say either, lucky = good fortune, fortune = an unknown and unpredictable phenomenon that leads to a favorable outcome, so what is that phenomenon? anyways, yes i feel blessed to be alive, now i'm going to ask you a question, because me being a religious person won't be able to answer it, how can you not believe in god? i have noticed that any person who goes too deep into science always tends to lose their faith, but what is it that makes them lose faith? dont take me wrong, i love science myself, but i haven't stumbled upon anything that would make me lose faith in god

For me, it's the realization that gods are projections of humanity onto nature. It is very natural for us to imagine meaning and purpose where there is none. Even up to this very day, people interpret birds, clouds, stars, lightning, natural disastors, creaks or sounds or lense artifacts, feelings and emotions, sickness or health as messages or signs from something bigger out there that cares about us, because we like to believe that we are special and significant. But the more I learn, the more convinced I become that all the meaning and purpose in everything does not come from out there, but from in here *points to skull*.

 

[Quiddity]

For me, it's the realization that gods are projections of humanity onto nature. It is very natural for us to imagine meaning and purpose where there is none. Even up to this very day, people interpret birds, clouds, stars, lightning, natural disastors, creaks or sounds or lense artifacts, feelings and emotions, sickness or health as messages or signs from something bigger out there that cares about us, because we like to believe that we are special and significant. But the more I learn, the more convinced I become that all the meaning and purpose in everything does not come from out there, but from in here *points to skull*.

I whole heartedly think it's a combination of both (no surprise ) I think it's a mistake to discredit it because the same laundry list can be given. And the crucial thing to sink in is attaching meaning is natural.
But of course it brings little comfort that something so natural can't be contained with instruments and math completely. To some extent it can (Matrix or Naturalized Epistemology). This will always be a point of contention.

 

[roli]

The "Humanist Manifesto"says, "Matter is self-existing and not created," and that is a concise statement of the atheist's belief. I've given examples of many of the above from the qur'an already, so i'm going to switch to the second law of thermodynamics, In any closed system,of thermodynamics.
.

The Humanist Manifesto says so,therefore it must be,who were the men that wrote these, have these individuals a bias viewpoint and all knowledge of where matter originated or is it only supportive of their anti-theistic position and ability to position themselves as gods and master of their own destiny and establish a world system with such views, um!!!!!!!!!
"Humanist Manifesto is the title of three manifestos laying out a humanist worldview published by the American Humanist Association ," how convenient" and supportive this view is to an overall agenda.

"Secular humanism is a humanist philosophy that upholds reason, ethics, and justice, and denies supernaturalism."

things tend to become disordered. If an automobile is driven for years and years without repair, for example, it will become so disordered that it would not run any more. Getting old is simple conformity to the second law

But that disorder is contrary to the nature and original intention of God , things were meant to be eternal, but then sin entered and the universe,including nature and civilization were cursed and began to deteriorate, but hey! that does not seem to fit with the logic of anti - theists and therefore must be discounted.

 

[sky87]

The Humanist Manifesto says so,therefore it must be,who were the men that wrote these, have these individuals a bias viewpoint and all knowledge of where matter originated or is it only supportive of their anti-theistic position and ability to position themselves as gods and master of their own destiny and establish a world system with such views, um!!!!!!!!!
"Humanist Manifesto is the title of three manifestos laying out a humanist worldview published by the American Humanist Association ," how convenient" and supportive this view is to an overall agenda.

"Secular humanism is a humanist philosophy that upholds reason, ethics, and justice, and denies supernaturalism."



But that disorder is contrary to the nature and original intention of God , things were meant to be eternal, but then sin entered and the universe,including nature and civilization were cursed and began to deteriorate, but hey! that does not seem to fit with the logic of anti - theists and therefore must be discounted.

my whole point was that, atheists believe that matter is self-existing, am i right? and i used the humanist manifesto to prove that point, and this belief (of matter self existing and not being created) can be used to describe almost all atheistic beliefs, if they didn't believe in self-existing matter, than they must believe in creation, where they can no longer be called atheists. so i'm not being biased, if thats what you're trying to say

 

[Mr Spinkles]

my whole point was that, atheists believe that matter is self-existing, am i right?

Atheists do not believe in god(s), that is the only thing required to fall under the definition of "atheist". I do not see how thermodynamics has anything to do with the existence of these undefined supernatural entities we are calling "gods"...supernatural things could exist whether or not matter could be created.

 

[sky87]

well yes!! doesnt that fall under what i said? the fact that you believe matter is self-existing proves the fact that you don't believe in god, and that is the definition that you gave me, and im not going to repeat the thermodynamics part, look it up on the net or something if it has anything there (sorry im a bit tired right now, seems that ive been repeating myself way too much on this site) i don't know why you quoted my statement and responded to it, even though you just kinda ended up saying the same thing. evidently if you don't believe in god, than you don't believe in matter being created, because then IF you do, then you do believe in god or some supernatural entity. is that clear?