Is it better to be a believer or an athiest?

[Mr Spinkles]

well yes!! doesnt that fall under what i said? the fact that you believe matter is self-existing proves the fact that you don't believe in god, and that is the definition that you gave me, and im not going to repeat the thermodynamics part, look it up on the net or something if it has anything there (sorry im a bit tired right now, seems that ive been repeating myself way too much on this site) i don't know why you quoted my statement and responded to it, even though you just kinda ended up saying the same thing. evidently if you don't believe in god, than you don't believe in matter being created, because then IF you do, then you do believe in god or some supernatural entity. is that clear?

I'm afraid not. My point is that even if matter was created, that doesn't mean "god or some supernatural entity" created it.

It does not logically follow that:

IF _____ is created, then 'god or some supernatural entity' created ____
​

Snoflakes, lightning, and cookies are all created, yet that does not mean that 'god or some supernatural entity' created them.

 

[sky87]

then what created them?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

then what created them?

You're asking me what creates snowflakes, lightning, and cookies? You're kidding, right? :areyoucra

 

[Ormiston]

You're asking me what creates snowflakes, lightning, and cookies? You're kidding, right? :areyoucra

MS, you must have faith in the creator of the oatmeal cookie. She has saved you from yourself. All praise be to Betty Crocker.

 

[Ody]

what happens if demonic pink lemurs rule the afterlife and only allow salvation for them? Should we all start worshiping pink lemurs?

 

[sky87]

sorry i should have rephrased what i said, i meant what are some other ways of things being "created" if there is no supernatural being creating them. for example the first unit of mass, where did it come from if it wasn't self-existing or created by another being?

 

[roli]

[

QUOTE=Atheist_Dave]Sky, what have you seen to make you believe in god? What has given you the faith in the first place

?

Maybe you don't want to find God,for if you found Him then you know you would be responsible to obey him ,and knowing that he exists you are therefore subject to Him, His laws and the consequences that would follow those who fail to obey,

I have never seen anything that suggests to me that the bible or any other religious book is correct. I have never seen anything that suggests there is a God, everything is being explained, myth after myth has been destroyed by science.

Well, are you looking for God as you would water if you were stranded in a desert for a week and dehydration set in.
Are you looking for God as my friend with Cystitis fibrosis desparately gasps for air.
Are you looking for God as you do the pleasures that gratify your human nature

Jer 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find [me], when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

It is apparent that you are not ,God has not hid himself from us but it is in his creation He has revealed Himself.You will be without excuse some day
Yet is just too simplistic for the intellect to grasp it most be more complex and at the same time there must be more evidence.
It's empowering to the igo to refute by speculative reasoning the existence of God and spend your life doing so and in the process never bringing any clarity or purpose to life just defining it as a meaningless existence.
I was there but it iTis an awesome thing to finally have your eyes opend and have your origin,purpose destiny,revealed,I guess some will only question and speculate and never come to that assurance.
It was a sad place to be for me when I found myself there.

If you looked at a building without an prior knowledge of the builder or materials, would you refute the fact that something more intelligent must have created or designed it ;It would be totally illogical to do so and an insult to him who built it.
So it is with God we insult Him and His power to think we can out reason Him and all the reasons and evidences He gave us thinking ourselves more creative and intelligent then Him is offesive and will prove eternally remorseful

But man with his overinflated igo sets himself upon some pedestal of supremacy over God, conceptualizing our origin,purpose and destiny through humanistic rationale,thinking we through our study of the universe by science can conclude life's answer's,It has'nt happened yet and apparent it is'nt going to anytime soon



Ron1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

It is ironic if not an oxymoron that over all the years the rational thinker and philosophical mind spent on their rhetoric determining to undermine,refute and disprove God's existence,they appear to be no further ahead then back then.What does that indicate........!

What makes you think any of the more modern myths are anything other than fiction?

Is it just me or is there something wrong when people undermind and refute the accuracy, reliability and volitity of the bible and it's 5600 manuscripts and some up to the first century Christ lived,not to mention the 14,000 manuscripts including pieces and fragments of the old testiment that are 99.5% accurate with the scriptures we have today.
But that is not now,nor will it ever be enough to cause those individuals to possibly believe in God's existence ,the moto here," I believe is out of sight out of mind"

The manuscripts of the ancient historical writers and philosphers that many in the world rely on,study from and quote from have not come close to the accuracy and timeline of the accounts,as the bible, yet How many of those men are refuted and disecte
On the contrary I hear quoting and ideologies that have come from such man as though they themselves were divine,hum...........
Homer (Iliad) has only 643 copies written in 900bc earliest copy found 400 bc
Aristotle only 49 copies written earliest copy 1100AD
Plato 7 copies earliest copy 900 AD

Sure, I could believe for beliefs sake. I could live in accordance with so and so religion, hoping desperately that its the truth because Im so scared that I might just be a creature, the same as anything else. I could say "there must be more", but how much more do you want? The world is a beautiful place, there's no need to make us fairy tales to explain it, it has all the answers we need, we just need to LOOK.

Peace x[/QUOTE]The world is in disarray and chaos do you have colured rimmed glasses, my goddness the world is a cesspool of evil,muder,disease,greed,materialism etc this is not God's order this is man making the world into His abode and playground ,but it will not always be

 

[Atheist_Dave]

Dont think I havnt searched. I have had my whole family except my mother and father taken away from me, I have cried for years asking him why he did this, and how I can move on. If he was there wouldnt he have come to me when I wanted him so much? The only way I got over these things was by realising that blaming them on something I have never seen, touched or heared was very unhealthy. I accepted that things happen, not for a reason, not to test me, it is just nature, it happens whether we look or not.

Tell me, if god is there, why do only some peopel find him? Why doesnt he let others "see" him?

Peace x

 

[Atheist_Dave]

By the way, sorry for throwing my personal **** on you. It just gets me when peopel say "if you search you will find". I searched, and got squat, for an omnipotent god he sure is subtle....

 

[JerryL]

The only way I got over these things was by realising that blaming them on something I have never seen, touched or heared was very unhealthy. I accepted that things happen, not for a reason, not to test me, it is just nature, it happens whether we look or not.

I take great solice in the fact that the universe is inherently unfair. Could you imagine if the universe were fair and we actualy deserved all the horrible things that happen to us?

 

[Atheist_Dave]

If I believed now that I deserved all the terrible things, I would probably feel incredibly small. Luckily, I am one of natures beautiful creatures, and I am happy to be alive, writing this post.

So to answer the title of the thread, for me, being an atheist has been the best thing for me. Im so glad I escaped religion, the world seems so much more marvelous to me now. I cant imagine I could be happy if I believed I was some sinful disgrace of a creature that must spend its life kissing gods *** for forgiveness. But, it seems to work for some people....

Peace x

 

[roli]

By the way, sorry for throwing my personal **** on you. It just gets me when peopel say "if you search you will find". I searched, and got squat, for an omnipotent god he sure is subtle....

Well I know your probably not looking for my sympathy, Dave ,but if you would permit I would like to offer my deepest sympathies for your loss and I can't possibly understand how you feel.
I have had my own personal losses and have had many unanswered questions still to this day ,but as you yourself expressed, I went on with life not playing the blame game but just accepted it as part of life.
Dave, it is not I who make such bold assertions about searching for him ,but God himself several times.
I either believe it as a lie,just a belief or I literally take him at His word and as for me as well as many I have encounter who walk this Christian journey,they have never been let down or disappointed with the experience they encountered.
I can't explain where your heart was when you were searching for God and why you never found Him,but that does negate the fact that God's greatest desire is to reveal himself to us more then we want him to.
Who are the ones who get angry,frustrated and turned off with God, well that can only be answered by those individuals,
I know it never was productive for me as you also shared.
I'm sure you have noticed that many people who tend to turn to God have usually gone through some very difficult and trying times in their lives if not lost everything close to them,jail,death,sickness,alcoholism etc.
And the logic by many onlookers see that as escapism,or using God as a crutch but the irony of that is that we as a people are so ,proud,self sufficient,self satisfying ,self relying, self indulgent,lost in a world of materialism,personal gain/pursuits,free expression etc. we have no need for a so- called dictator God with a bunch of rules for us to follow.
We don't look for God because we don't really want Him, there is no place for him in our crowded lives and busy agenda's he will only cramp our styles.
I believe God has to rattle our cage not so much for Him as it is for our own benefit and betterment.
I don't believe he uses human lives as his vicious ponds in this game called life ,but death is a part of life and we all have an appointment with it.How and when it happens is out of our control
I mean after stepping back from the emotions,personal feelings and all the things that can come in and obscure any hint of God's hand in our lives they realised it was God.
I have witnessed in my life and that of untold hundreds the hand of a loving God reaching down to comfort ,strengthen, encourage those who have suffered such pain.
Do we always recognise it as from God ,no, but He uses sources unbeknown to us to intervene in our lives nevertheless.
This I believe His motive is to see us turn to Him believe,accept and recieve His provision.
If only we could see the hand that sustains our existence it is not from within ourselves but that which is from without
I can only say that I will pray God will reveal himself to you in a way you will recognise it as from God.
That is why Theism is better then Atheism, God see's the end form the beginning and His interests are that we turn to Him

 

[Opethian]

I am an atheist because I like to see things the way they really are and not believe in fairy tales ( which are fun nontheless ). Being atheist is a sacrifice of fantasy and false hope to realistic perception and logic.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I'm sure you have noticed that many people who tend to turn to God have usually gone through some very difficult and trying times in their lives if not lost everything close to them,jail,death,sickness,alcoholism etc.
And the logic by many onlookers see that as escapism,or using God as a crutch but the irony of that is that we as a people are so ,proud,self sufficient,self satisfying ,self relying, self indulgent,lost in a world of materialism,personal gain/pursuits,free expression etc. we have no need for a so- called dictator God with a bunch of rules for us to follow.

It sounds like you're referring to the idea of God. Believing in God could still entail following a bunch of rules and helping people who have gone through difficult times, whether or not God actually existed.

 

[roli]

I am an atheist because I like to see things the way they really are and not believe in fairy tales ( which are fun nontheless ). Being atheist is a sacrifice of fantasy and false hope to realistic perception and logic.[/quote

On the contrary you will see things not the way they really are, but the way you want them to be,that is always the case with atheists in relation to the existence of God
That my friend is the irony of it all and for that matter a practical and very beneficial fairy tale for you to believe. It supports what you don't want to believe is true.
That Jesus Christ loved the world so much He died for the sins of mankind,so that we might be reconciled to God and live forever,that sounds like a fairy tale itself but it has never been more certainly confirmed then it is to those who believe (trust rely)

To say," I am an atheist,"may be what you are,but an atheists perspective is in and of itself an inaccurate and illogical perspective to take from your limited knowledge.
Let's say you might know 1% or let's say 5% of all the knowledge in the universe,out of the remaining 95% knowledge you are unaware of you are saying there is no evidence for God.That is an absolute statement and bold assertion on your part to say the least and not to mention unvalidated.

I mean what atheist wants to admit there is God, you incriminate yourself immediately and therefore be accountabale to Him on that day. You are not left with the right to live,act,say or do as you want and would be subject to God's law.
The fact is whether one believe's or not they are still under law,therefore a judge and ultimately a day of reckoning.We all know that in our own heart that is is most definitly a law or governing of sorts of all our actions attitudes,behaviors etc,no man can deny that exists in each person.
This world is a very large holding cell and we are all on death row for violating the laws of the judge of the universe.
People don't experience God unless they first recognise their sinful and hopeless state.
Paul the greatest new testement theologian and hebrew scholar,taught under Gamaliel, one of the wisest and most scholared man of that day said,"I would not know what coveting really was if the law had not said ,thou shall not covet ,but that which was to bring life (being the law) brought death."
Law and justice are needed in any civil society no different with a Holy God
He also says Rom 3:20 "by the law is the knowledge of sin"

Back to the question,"
why is it better to believe,then to be an atheist," becuase I have been set free from the guilt of sin and the hope that I have, knowing I have been exonerated has been quite liberating to say the least.
For a man who lived on both sides of the proverbial christian fence and had strong aspirations of what this life is about,where we came ,from and where will we go if in fact we go anywhere, and why do we die, those questions have with all certainty been clearly and convincingly answered

Belief in God is anything but false hope,on the contray it is the essence of hope.
Not becuase we christians say so and therefore it is,but based on a personal,living encounter and relationship with him in which the atheist will never experience .

Unless there is a stirpping away of sorts to the individual and a shaking of all reason and logic on which many so firmly syand,for God does work through our ability to rationalise and understand only thru faith,an dthat alone.

 

[ashai]

Some people are born with brains incappable of seeing right from wrong. Some cant even see reality from delusion... are you saying that these people who cannot see right from wrong for medical reasons are in some way less holy than healthy people then? Your statement would seem to imply that... "me, my, I" you are talking about yourself here, so really your point isnt valid atall, infact its utter nonsense. Tell me why there are many religions then please why are there more than one if YOUR god definetely sent it down to us. why did different religions spring up from different parts of the world?

Peace x

Ushta

Are you sure you want an answer to that? There are many religions because religions are man made constructs, tools created to perceive God/Ultimate reality how s/he, it is why and what is its/her/his purpose. God need no religion man does The God has given man conscience, discernment and will, the Cosmos shouts the questions how, why, etc; at us we answer according to our understanding. As our understanding changes so do our answers.

People who are ill and cannot discern right from wrong , that is cannot 'hear' their conscience are the exception not the rule, they are acidents of randomness which exists in the Cosmos. These will however receive further changes to develop as will all of us that do not 'get it' :dan:

Can I prove this? No, I got reasons to believe it as I am sure you have reasons to believe in what you belief. That is it at the end of all arguments you believe I believe, only time will tell who is right and who is wrong. Certainly living in the west you probably have reasons to dislike Theists that are condemning you to a hell, but I am a heist I do not condemn any one to a hell simply I don't believe there is one other than the one you make between your ears! :bow:

Ushta Te
Ashai

 

[roli]

[

quoe=Dayv]Personally, as one who has been on both sides of the fence, I'd prefer non-belief. It's so much more open and flexible, I've never been fond of rules and being subject to 2000 year old system of morals. I like to decide for myself.

Of course it is more flexible ,I mean is that not why it's so acceptable today.
No laws ,no boundaries,no standards is it not all wishful thinking and delusional on the part of the individual not to mention shaking ground
I'm sure your philosophy would change if someone stole your wallet, lied to you or killed a family member,is'nt that hypocritical to say the least.
I just wonder what your views would change
We all have a moral code within,which is thru your conscience con= with science = knowledge,how that is built upon and instilled in one's life is another question
Your entire existence is regulated by those moral guidelines you claim to not follow,

Also, If I were then wrong, and this 'god' were so cruel as to torture me for being logical and thinking for myself eventhough I was a good and kind person, I have always believed that we are all in charge of our own destiny (and no one's gonna hold me down), and I would do everything possible to topple his prejudice dictatorship, and I'm sure I wouildn't be alone (hey, they did it to Cronus

It's ironic that the very rules your not fond of you live by every single moment of you life ,that is the foundation of secular humanism,"I am my own god in control of my destiny,no rules, yet you can't control the intrical functions of your body as they are governed by unseen laws.

 

[Opethian]

On the contrary you will see things not the way they really are, but the way you want them to be,that is always the case with atheists in relation to the existence of God
That my friend is the irony of it all and for that matter a practical and very beneficial fairy tale for you to believe. It supports what you don't want to believe is true.
That Jesus Christ loved the world so much He died for the sins of mankind,so that we might be reconciled to God and live forever,that sounds like a fairy tale itself but it has never been more certainly confirmed then it is to those who believe (trust rely)

No you are dead wrong, I don't see things the way I want them to be, if I did, I would be a believer. I see things by interpreting all the knowledge I have and being honest about what I can conclude by them. The irony is that people like you don't understand they are tricking themselves and being intellectually dishonest. It may be confirmed in your mind because you believe, since the psychological is a very powerful thing.

To say," I am an atheist,"may be what you are,but an atheists perspective is in and of itself an inaccurate and illogical perspective to take from your limited knowledge.
Let's say you might know 1% or let's say 5% of all the knowledge in the universe,out of the remaining 95% knowledge you are unaware of you are saying there is no evidence for God.That is an absolute statement and bold assertion on your part to say the least and not to mention unvalidated.

There is no evidence for a god, and until the day that someone shows me evidence that I can't refute, I have all the rights to make the claim that there are no gods.
It is an inaccurate and illogical perspective of you to claim my stance on life is an inaccurate and illogical perspective to take, since you probably have an even more limited knowledge, especially on the subject science, which is the only thing that can give a true insight in life.

I mean what atheist wants to admit there is God, you incriminate yourself immediately and therefore be accountabale to Him on that day. You are not left with the right to live,act,say or do as you want and would be subject to God's law.
The fact is whether one believe's or not they are still under law,therefore a judge and ultimately a day of reckoning.We all know that in our own heart that is is most definitly a law or governing of sorts of all our actions attitudes,behaviors etc,no man can deny that exists in each person.

So are you seeing that in fact I do believe in god, but I won't admit it? If you are, then I don't see any reason to continue this discussion because that would mean all rationality has been lost to you. I deny that there is a certain law of governing on our actions etc... There is only interpreting data and reacting on that data. The way this happens is only based on the data I receive and my physical body.

This world is a very large holding cell and we are all on death row for violating the laws of the judge of the universe.
People don't experience God unless they first recognise their sinful and hopeless state.

People don't experience god unless they trick themselves into thinking they are experiencing god.

Paul the greatest new testement theologian and hebrew scholar,taught under Gamaliel, one of the wisest and most scholared man of that day said,"I would not know what coveting really was if the law had not said ,thou shall not covet ,but that which was to bring life (being the law) brought death."
Law and justice are needed in any civil society no different with a Holy God
He also says Rom 3:20 "by the law is the knowledge of sin"

There is absolutely no need for a god in society. Religions bring more harm than they do good. I say get rid of them all.

Belief in God is anything but false hope,on the contray it is the essence of hope.
Not becuase we christians say so and therefore it is,but based on a personal,living encounter and relationship with him in which the atheist will never experience .

A personal, psychological event stimulated by the need to believe in your own fantasies and trick yourself. I'm glad I will never deceive myself like that.

Unless there is a stirpping away of sorts to the individual and a shaking of all reason and logic on which many so firmly syand,for God does work through our ability to rationalise and understand only thru faith,an dthat alone.

:biglaugh:

 

[Opethian]

Of course it is more flexible ,I mean is that not why it's so acceptable today.
No laws ,no boundaries,no standards is it not all wishful thinking and delusional on the part of the individual not to mention shaking ground
I'm sure your philosophy would change if someone stole your wallet, lied to you or killed a family member,is'nt that hypocritical to say the least.
I just wonder what your views would change
We all have a moral code within,which is thru your conscience con= with science = knowledge,how that is built upon and instilled in one's life is another question
Your entire existence is regulated by those moral guidelines you claim to not follow,

You are very, very wrong. Being atheist does not mean not following any moral guidelines. Being atheist means not believing in god, and nothing more. There is no need to believe in god to have your own moral guidelines. Everything you wrote here is utter piffle (thanks for the saying popesays :bow: ).

 

[roli]

[

quote=Opethian]No you are dead wrong, I don't see things the way I want them to be, if I did, I would be a believer. I see things by interpreting all the knowledge I have and being honest about what I can conclude by them. The irony is that people like you don't understand they are tricking themselves and being intellectually dishonest. It may be confirmed in your mind because you believe, since the psychological is a very powerful thing.

I agree, If it was in the mind I would be decieved and truly duped by this whole christian God who lives in heaven and hopes I will be there oneday to.

There is no evidence for a god, and until the day that someone shows me evidence that I can't refute, I have all the rights to make the claim that there are no gods.
It is an inaccurate and illogical perspective of you to claim my stance on life is an inaccurate and illogical perspective to take, since you probably have an even more limited knowledge, especially on the subject science, which is the only thing that can give a true insight in life.

Well I agree again,you do have the right to claim there is no God,but my point was that out of the limited knowledge you have of the universe and that of which you have not yet come across ,you can't say there is no God with out all the facts.
Those facts that you lack and so claim you must have to prove he does not exist, are the insufficient facts that you seem to use to not believe.
God is not real in my head, as a rational or scientific fact,as I am sure you must be aware of, he indwells a believer through the faith one has in God BY his spirit.
Simply put is He lives in a believer's heart by placing His spirit within and that will probably not fit into your logic or reasoning but that is the beauty of it.
If it did, God would only be for the intellectual elite, the irony of it all is that all the logic ,rational thinking and reasoning in the world will never comprehend or accept that God can only be found with the faith like a child's.
God does not use the wisdom of the world to reveal himself so you won't find him that way,it will just remain a topic to refute,
This is what God thinks of worldly wisdom: THIS IS A MUST READ:
1Cr 1:17 For Christ sent me (Paul)not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
1Cr 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1Cr 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
1Cr 1:20 Where [is] the wise? where [is] the scribe? where [is] the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
1Cr 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
1Cr 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:to the Jew (RELIGIOUS)it is a stumbling stone to the Greek ( SCHOLAR)it is foolishness
1Cr 2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
1Cr 2:4 And my speech and my preaching [was] not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
1Cr 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
1Cr 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
1Cr 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory
Simply put if you don't want to find God ,you want.
The reasons could be one oF many why people don't find him.
It is certainly not the fact that he does'nt want to be found by you, or can't be found.
But we must remember that when a person does find Him you will also find justice, Holiness, Righteousness,peace,perfection, purity,truth love,forgiveness etc.

The reason why one might not find God or look for God is much like why a criminal won't be to quick to go and find a cop,why? guilt ,conviction,consequence,loss of freedom,punishment.
Can the criminal make the cop or justice system in his head not exist ,for sure, but all the rational gymnastics can't evade justice finding you out,if the guilt does'nt catch up to you first the law will and justice demands a payment.
"God is the same way,be sure your sin will find you out"

I deny that there is a certain law of governing on our actions etc... There is only interpreting data and reacting on that data. The way this happens is only based on the data I receive and my physical body.

Call it what you want ,data,facts,but professionals will call that a conscience that governs a persons actions or inactions and conscience is the alarm that warns you to respond,by accusing or excusing you.
How you response will indeed have an adverse effect on your body ,emotionally , physically and psychologically if in fact your not not desensitized.

People don't experience god unless they trick themselves into thinking they are experiencing god

.
I guess all the Christians in the world who have had an encounter with God and have had their lives,behavior,actions and attitudes changed have been duped.
I guess some will never know

There is absolutely no need for a god in society. Religions bring more harm than they do good. I say get rid of them all.

Maybe not in your world,you think man has done a real good job on their own, as far their role in society and history is concerned, depraved,perverted,immoral,wicked,murders,rape,theft,dictatorship,greed ,materialism, power, hate, lusts,lies that is what is in a man's heart and that is what God changes.If our world is'nt in need of morality, love,peace etc. then I have been seriously deceived.
By the way just because your ,"religious or in a religion " does not mean you are a blood bought ,born again,bible believing and saved follower of Christ.
Jesus called the religious leaders ,vipers,and hypocrites,
I agree religion is very harmful,but a relationship with Jesus is quite differnt.

A personal, psychological event stimulated by the need to believe in your own fantasies and trick yourself. I'm glad I will never deceive myself like that.

The chances your the deceived one here are 50/50, but for me I have not assumptions and hypothesis which I once had but on the contrary ,the confirmation, assurance and certainty through experience not knowledge that I am 100% saved and heaven bound and time will tell
It is for all who will call on His name,:shoutbut that takes a humbling of one's self.

:biglaugh:[/quote]