Is it difficult to understand theists?

[Spirit of Light]

I have absolutely no idea what this means, none.

It is like we are talking two different languages.

I am used to that people do not understand, unfortunatly it is not easy to speak with those with no understanding of spiritual practice. that is on me of course. and this thread is also for me to understand you better

 

[Aupmanyav]

I mean, I think that's what all faithful endeavors are... Sufi, Christian, Hindu, it's all the same; people trying to figure out who they are and what they think and what it meaningful

As for Hindus, you cannot generalize. I am a strong atheist and an orthodox Hindu. Yes, people do try to figure out who they are. And as I figure it, they are blob of physical energy with which the universe began just like everything else that exists in the universe, living or non-living, is. This is non-dual Advaita Hinduism. It does not, by definition, permit existence of a God.

 

[PureX]

It is very difficult to understand theists, from my perspective, lets have a conversation,

If I told you I have a unicorn in my paddock, what would you reply?

I would reply, "how fun for you!"

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The spiritual path i am on (sufism) is a inward path, meaning there is no physical evidence i could show to those who do not believe in a God, or religion for that matter. The path is about understanding one self, it is a personal journey to realize God from within and how do you want me to prove God to you if God is wisdom, light, truth and so on and not a physical being?

Sounds like you're using God as a metaphor.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Sounds like you're using God as a metaphor.

I can not say if God is a physical being, energy, light or something totally different, because i have not seen God in his true form. But the wisdom from God do arise within the person so the person become one with God. (in my understanding)

 

[Rawshak]

I am used to that people do not understand, unfortunatly it is not easy to speak with those with no understanding of spiritual practice. that is on me of course. and this thread is also for me to understand you better

Ok lets try this way,

I "see" a little old man with a beard jumping up out of bed because someone stood on a path is shouting at him.

What do you "see"?

 

[Spirit of Light]

Ok lets try this way,

I "see" a little old man with a beard jumping up out of bed because someone stood on a path is shouting at him.

What do you "see"?

I do not understand, to me it does not seem to be anything spiritual about your statement?

 

[Rawshak]

I do not understand, to me it does not seem to be anything spiritual about your statement?

No there would not be because I do not understand spiritual, can't you just tell me what you "see", what image your words about waking Allah from the path within conjure up?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Personally I do not need physical evidence to think it might be true.

Neither do I. I just need to know that something isn't impossible to believe that it is possible.

But here's where we part ways, and why I might say that I don't understand the faith-based thinker: the faith-based thinker goes on to believe not just that it may be possible, but by faith, that it is actual.

Possible is only interesting because that is the set of things that contains the actual. We wouldn't look to the impossible for ideas that we hope to demonstrate are correct.

But there is infinitely more that can be called possible than actual, like the winning numbers for the lottery. Before the drawing, a huge number of winning combinations are possible, but only one will be actual. It's really only that last one that matters.

If you don't tether your method of determining what is true about the world to empiricism, that is, believing only that for which there is evidence, and only to the extent that that evidence supports belief, then your floating in space. And if you choose to go that path, then nothing that follows from your faith-based assumptions removed from empiricism will have any value to one who considers faith-based beliefs unlikely guesses.

To realize God (faith is only the begining) one have to change ones own way of thinking, letting go of attachments like anger, frustration, greed, hate and so on

Why should I change my way of thinking? To believe what you do? To "realize God"? Whatever you mean by that, what good do you think that did you, or would do someone like me already?

My way of thinking has been serving me satisfactorily for decades. Has yours? If not, perhaps you should be considering changing your way of thinking to mine.

What is the difference in your faith in unicorns and a religous faith in God?

Exactly. There is no difference between faith in A or B apart from what you choose to believe for no reason.

The spiritual path i am on (sufism) is a inward path, meaning there is no physical evidence i could show to those who do not believe in a God, or religion for that matter.

You also have never offered any reason why others should want to follow you, or what benefit you think you have received so doing. You keep implying that there is value there, but never offer a glimmer of what that might be.

And you seem to be unaware of how often people find sufficient answers by other means.

 

[Spirit of Light]

No there would not be because I do not understand spiritual, can't you just tell me what you "see", what image your words about waking Allah from the path within conjure up?

It means to awaken fully the spiritual side of the spirit within me, and leave more and more of the mundane world alone, but it also means the more wisdom that arise the more spiritual wisdom it will be to share with those who wish to listen. not that anybody have to listen to what i say of course.

The more awaken a spiritual person become the close to Allah they come

 

[Brian2]

I try to understand what someone is saying. I'm very sensitive to cognitivity: there are some theistic claims that I'm just not sure are even saying anything at all, like "God is love." I understand what "God is loving" would mean, because it's saying God has a property. But "God is love" is saying that God is a property, which is somewhat just nonsense. So I do struggle with claims that seem noncognitive at times, and will ask for clarification where possible. I often don't get satisfactory explanation though.

God is love,,,,,,,,,,,,surely you can understand this, you're a cosmologist.
Actually I think it is one of those things that Christians say and don't really understand.
It's like when Jesus says that He is the way, the truth and the life.
I think the problem stems from the fact that God is spirit and so can be love.
We see and understand our own realm of physicality a lot easier. We do not really know what spirit is.
Jesus said that the words that He spoke were spirit. Spirit is different to what we know even if there is overlap of the realms because we have a spirit and can sort of grasp what is being spoken about and have an understanding of love and truth. If there was no overlap then it would not be the case that humans were made in the image of God.

 

[Brian2]

It is very difficult to understand theists, from my perspective, lets have a conversation,

If I told you I have a unicorn in my paddock, what would you reply?

Can I have a look?

 

[blü 2]

Can I have a look?

Yes, you've gone straight to the heart of the problem,

 

[HonestJoe]

In different discussions or debates that has been in RF for some time, it look like some people have difficult in understanding how or why theists believe what they do?

If you have trouble understanding theists, what do you feel is the difficult?

I personally understand why. It's the same reason people can believe all sorts of different irrational things; Humans are irrational, imaginative and emotional creatures.

I can understand (and often share) the frustration of someone presenting an irrational argument for their beliefs and their being unwilling or unable to even hear anything about why their logic is flawed (which isn't automatically the same thing as their belief being wrong). That is faith for you though.

 

[Brian2]

I feel that the theist doesn't clarify or define God in a plausible way. For instance how would a timeless, immaterial being have existence? And how does that mind of that being actually operate on nature?

We don't really need to know how to everything.
Interestingly we can operate on nature with our mind and can move things with out mind. The mechanics is the mind working through our bodies or even though someone else's power in their bodies. With God the power is there but God is spirit just as our thoughts are sort of spirit.
How would God have existence? Do theists have to know these things?
God is spirit and spirit no doubt includes such things as life and love and truth and ideas etc. The universe is material and can wear out and does do that, spirit it seems is more durable and long lasting. It could be asked where life and love and ideas etc come from when they are not material even though experienced in this material medium. So it could be that the universe is not really explainable with a source for these things.

Also where is the evidence for the supernatural?
And what gives a theist reason to call nature a perfect design? Where is the evidence that it once was perfect?

I don't think it once was perfect but it was what God wanted. It was made to wear out.
Faith it seems is a function of our spirit. Exercising that function can give results for those who exercise it.

I've worked myself to the point of seeing intelligence in nature and no design, but perhaps an artistic creativity is on display.

Nature to me is a lot like a program. I can see where a spiritual aspect to nature might exist because the self is no illusion, and I have a limited free will.

Maybe intelligence and design once it is known that the universe was made to wear out and certainly an artistic display in the midst of utility, great for us humans who can appreciate both.
Our limited free will seems to be a function of how we gave control of our will over to what we desired, so sometimes we do what we do not want to do and do not do what we want to do.

Omnipotence, and all knowing and ever present qualities are things no one has evidence for.

These are things of faith and can be experienced more with faith.
In the olden days in the Bible people may have had different Gods for different places or things and then THE God came along and had to clear that misconception up with a display that He was the God who worked in all places and over centuries of time and in all spheres.

I see there are higher moral standards then what God holds; eternal punishment for non believers is moral failure.

Punishment for non believers brings with it the idea of justice.
I think some with suffer for a time and live on and others will suffer for a time and then be destroyed as a person.
So I see the idea of suffering forever as a mistake by some about the nature of death for those who do not get given eternal life.
Having said that I am not the one judging.
It's a matter of trusting God to do what is right and fair.

The existence of God doesn't intuit well from my experience of reality. For me existence is a big mystery as to why things are the way they are and naturalism doesn't explain anything in regards to those mysteries. Theism goes way too far in concluding that God exists.

It has to be either believe in a God or say there is no God.
I think atheists have gone too far in concluding that there is no God.

I find God to be more cultural than universal.

Certainly different ideas and understanding have sprung up in different places and some of the ideas contradict others. But the common thing is a God usually.

 

[Brian2]

Yes, you've gone straight to the heart of the problem,

I guess I have for many people. Faith is something that many do not take to lightly.

 

[Revoltingest]

In different discussions or debates that has been in RF for some time, it look like some people have difficult in understanding how or why theists believe what they do?

I can only understand superficial things about such belief.
That they worship a god or gods...that they have scripture.

But to really understand...to empathize?
Not possible. I just don't get supernatural beliefs...worship..
..fear of God...church...need for this spiritual connection.
All are far far removed from my experience.

 

[Brian2]

I can only understand superficial things about such belief.
That they worship a god or gods...that they have scripture.

But to really understand...to empathize?
Not possible. I just don't get supernatural beliefs...worship..
..fear of God...church...need for this spiritual connection.
All are far far removed from my experience.

I don't get it either.
It's something you can do without and not know that anything is missing from life.
As I go further in the faith I can see it's a good thing to have fellowship with others of like faith and I can see more of why God wants worship (because of what and who He is) as well as a close relationship with people.

 

[Nakosis]

In different discussions or debates that has been in RF for some time, it look like some people have difficult in understanding how or why theists believe what they do?

If you have trouble understanding theists, what do you feel is the difficult?
When a theist answer you how he or she have their belief and how they come to their answers in the religious belief, do you take time to listen to what they theist sis trying to tell you? or do you use your own understanding of religion to assume what the theist actually saying is?

(PS: this is no attack at anyone who are not a theist, it hopefully will become a thread that clerify what you struggle to understand)

Never really saw it as difficult.
It's more about the benefits others see in their beliefs and not having to rely on assumptions I might make.

 

[Nakosis]

I can only understand superficial things about such belief.
That they worship a god or gods...that they have scripture.

But to really understand...to empathize?
Not possible. I just don't get supernatural beliefs...worship..
..fear of God...church...need for this spiritual connection.
All are far far removed from my experience.

I suspect you never had imaginary friends?
https://www.moms.com/10-benefits-of...10-signs-parents-might-need-to-pay-attention/

Not to claim gods are imaginary but whether or not they are, the benefits would be the same.