• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Is it God's will when children are raped tortured, and murdered?

Does the father will that some of his children get raped, tortured, and murdered?

  • Yes

    Votes: 6 24.0%
  • No

    Votes: 19 76.0%

  • Total voters
    25

Acim

Revelation all the time
In post #5 I made the following argument to the thread's topic question Q. "Is it God's will when children are raped tortured, and murdered?"

A. In as much as god is aware of such acts (he's omniscient) and could stop them if he wished (he's omnipotent) but chooses not to (evinced by the fact that they happen), it's obviously it's his will that they take place.

So yes, it is god's will that children are raped, tortured, and murdered.
If I've made some mistake in my argument here please point it out.

The mistake is the assumption that it has actually happened.

Omniscience is knowing All there this to Know about Reality. The physical world, being inherently unreal, is not included in this. It would be entirely unreasonable to include this in the domain of knowledge. I'm glad to walk through how this is so. I honestly see it as self evident that this is so. Takes faith (conviction in what can not be objectively proven either way) to uphold physical as 'reality.' Such faith amounts to mistaking illusion for Truth.

Acts within the illusion are prevented by no longer holding conviction of own self reality as depending on the illusion. Creator God does not make this fundamental mistake. Creator God desires all to be awakened, and is fully aware of Self as perfect, complete as is. Sleeping self may perceive own being as lacking, needing things for 'life to go on.' All aspects of illusionary existence. It's obvious this is not God's Will.

So no, it's not God's Will that illusions suffer by staying asleep, dreaming of an existence that rests on faith, based on a fundamental error.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
The mistake is the assumption that it has actually happened.
What "it" are you talking about? It's certainly true that children have been raped, tortured, and murdered. As for my conclusion, "it is god's will that children are raped, tortured, and murdered," this only follows from the logic using the claimed nature of god.

Omniscience is knowing All there this to Know about Reality. The physical world, being inherently unreal, is not included in this.
Sorry, but I don't buy your personal, self-serving definition of omniscience here. I go along with the definition found in English dictionaries.

Definition of omniscience

: the quality or state of being omniscient
Full Definition of omniscient

1: having infinite awareness, understanding, and insight

2: possessed of universal or complete knowledge​
Source: Merriam-Webster Dictionary
And I certainly don't buy your pseudo-philosophical notion that the physical world is inherently unreal.


.
.
 
Last edited:

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Most people don't have superpowers that can fix it. We have to suck it up because we have little other choice. Jesus was hungry and smote a fig tree because he was angry, yet had the power to poof up food. His suffering was entirely because of his own ego, not because nature just sucked. (Or, rather, he couldn't poof up figs because it was counter to the author's plot, which happens quite a bit to Jesus.)


God can form a universe and we can't even form an island without lots of machines to help us and in the bible we even got in trouble for just making a really short skyscraper, but it's OUR fault?


We are the ones who should be trying to fix it. (I agree.) The moral duty is ours. God apparently ISN'T going to do anything. (fixed)


An infant sticks a fork in an electrical socket. We should blame the infant and not the parent who failed to childproof the house. Got it.


From Job 2:

God is ADMITTING out in the OPEN that He is trolling Job WITHOUT REASON. It also implies Satan is not testing Job, but GOD. And God is taking the bait.
You and I have very different takes. I don't interpret Biblical stories literally. I don't even think Job was a real person. (Same as I don't think all those stories of the Jews committing genocide or God killing people are literal history, either.) It's mythology. Whatever history is in those books is beside the point and sacred writings aren't meant to be history books in the first place. The Book of Job is a poem and probably the oldest book in the Bible. It's an exploration of the topic of suffering. At the end, the character Job gives up because it's beyond him to understand it. There are no easy answers. Even the fig tree story wasn't meant to be taken literally. It was a metaphor for Israel and its superficial piousness.

God sustains us and strengthens us in our journey. All good comes from God, at the source. He also goes through our hardships with us, since He knows what it's like to be a human and to suffer as a human.
 

RedStorm

Pride and Arrogance
Catholicism seems like an over complication of something fairly simple.

There are many logical inconsistencies in the bible that it takes many people trying to fix it and therefore over complicating it.

If your sink was broken and beyond all repair, would you keep taping it back together if they're was a better one right next to it? no offense it seems like laziness.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Catholicism seems like an over complication of something fairly simple.

There are many logical inconsistencies in the bible that it takes many people trying to fix it and therefore over complicating it.

If your sink was broken and beyond all repair, would you keep taping it back together if they're was a better one right next to it? no offense it seems like laziness.
I don't know what you're talking about.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
What "it" are you talking about? It's certainly true that children have been raped, tortured, and murdered.

It's certainly judgment and ignorance that makes such assertions.

As for my conclusion, "it is god's will that children are raped, tortured, and murdered," this only follows from the logic using the claimed nature of god.

Sorry, but I don't buy your personal, self-serving definition of omniscience here. I go along with the definition found in English dictionaries.

Definition of omniscience

: the quality or state of being omniscient
Full Definition of omniscient

1: having infinite awareness, understanding, and insight

2: possessed of universal or complete knowledge​
Source: Merriam-Webster Dictionary​
And I certainly don't buy your pseudo-philosophical notion that the physical world is inherently unreal.

That's fine. I don't buy into your pseudo-philosophcial notion that the physical world is real. It's good knowing that such assertions ultimately rest on faith, rather than anything resembling objectivity.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
In post #5 I made the following argument to the thread's topic question Q. "Is it God's will when children are raped tortured, and murdered?"

A. In as much as god is aware of such acts (he's omniscient) and could stop them if he wished (he's omnipotent) but chooses not to (evinced by the fact that they happen), it's obviously it's his will that they take place.

So yes, it is god's will that children are raped, tortured, and murdered.
If I've made some mistake in my argument here please point it out. If you can't then I assume it's correct, and because, as you say, "It is unthinkable for the true God to act wickedly, For the Almighty to do wrong" the implication is that you believe that god's will that children are raped, tortured, and murdered is not wrong, but right.

It is right that god permits children to be raped, tortured, and murdered.


I await a reply that directly addresses my request. If you have none we'll take it as an admission that I'm right here: It is god's will that children are raped, tortured, and murdered. And it is right that god permits children to be raped, tortured, and murdered.

..
You assume that God should prevent the terrible harm done to children but make no mention of God's wrath against those who are sexually immoral, those who harm and kill others in war, and who commit all manner of what is evil in God's eyes. The truth is, "God had the will to demonstrate his wrath and to make his power known, and he tolerated with much patience vessels of wrath made fit for destruction... And...this was done to make known the riches of his glory on vessels of mercy." (Romans 9:22,23) Because God doesn't immediately end wickedness does in no way mean it is his will that this wickedness occur.
After mentioning wicked acts done by men, including some acts that most people would not class as wicked, Jehovah says in Psalm 50:21,22; "When you did these things, I remained silent, So you thought that I would be just like you. But now I will reprove you, And I will state my case against you. Please consider this, you who forget God,So that I may not tear you to pieces with no one to rescue you."
I believe God has a day and hour to end wickedness forever, and he will not be dictated to as to when and how he does so. (2 Thessalonians 1:6-9) Rather than to blame God for the wickedness of mankind, I think it is better to gain knowledge of God, and the reasons he has temporarily tolerated wickedness; wickedness that he abhors.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Who's fault is it we have a godless society based on animal pursuits and selfish ambition? Who's fault is it we never hear anything about God or virtues or character building in the television or media or news? Who's fault is it that all the focus is on the physical pleasures? Who has chosen this path man or God!

What does God say about the way we should treat children? What does God teach us? What does God say in His Holy Books how we should act? Who obeys God or even considers Him or His Words relevant anymore?

Then why are we crying and complaining if, after having turned away from godliness and towards waywardness and disbelief that our world would not be rosy anymore but like a hell on earth?

We made this bed against God's wishes. We have to lie in it now and pay the penalty for our choices. If we made good choices these things would never be heard of but we made a choice to turn away from God on a whole so what do we expect?

A godly society comes from following God's ways. An ungodly society is a result of turning away from His exhortations and teachings.

We want to be selfish, greedy. Lustful, hateful, spiteful and warring yet want to see heaven on earth??? Doesn't add up. You get what you pay for. For excessive materialistic this is the kind of society we get. For a spiritually based society we would get a wonderful society where none of these things happen.

God gave us the choice so the ball is in OUR court not His. Of course, those who have been mistreated or abused unjustly will be compensated for by God because He has chosen to allow us to have free will but the call is ours.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
and yet God killed all the people in Sodom and killed the first born sons of Egypt, etc. These were acts of God, not man. That would seem to intimate that God is fully capable of committing heinous acts on God's own.
God judicially executed the people of Sodom for their great wickedness. (Jude 7) The haughty Egyptians defied Jehovah by refusing to release his people from captivity, and brought the loss of their first born on themselves. (Exodus 10:28) As our Creator and LifeGiver, I believe Jehovah has every right to judge us, and to destroy the wicked. "Heinous" is defined as "hateful; odious; abominable; totally reprehensible." IMO, none of these definitions apply to Jehovah's righteous judgments.
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
Given that God's Will includes exactly 'no death,' then such an understanding would be a sure sign of inherent ignorance.
Then how come His followers die? I don't mean why do "sinners" die, but why do people cleansed in Jesus' blood die?
You assume that God should prevent the terrible harm done to children but make no mention of God's wrath against those who are sexually immoral, those who harm and kill others in war, and who commit all manner of what is evil in God's eyes.
The book of Job addresses this issue in depth, really. Does God always punish the wicked?

I mean, there's a lot of stuff done even worse than what crimes the bible has, and yet people go through their days and don't just drop dead or anything.

After mentioning wicked acts done by men, including some acts that most people would not class as wicked, Jehovah says in Psalm 50:21,22; "When you did these things, I remained silent, So you thought that I would be just like you. But now I will reprove you, And I will state my case against you. Please consider this, you who forget God,So that I may not tear you to pieces with no one to rescue you."
Laziness does not become God.

Who's fault is it we have a godless society based on animal pursuits and selfish ambition?
When theocracies have crime and evil, how does that work?

Who's fault is it we never hear anything about God or virtues or character building in the television or media or news?
Do you need TV to tell you about God? Does no one here actually EXPERIENCE God (or the divine reality as defined by their culture)? Plus, look at "Christian" media ... it's a bunch of melodramatic nonsense at best (Ten Commandments was pretty good, despite how stupid it was) and horrifically bad at worse (basically anything that sounds like a Chick Tract put to film).
Who has chosen this path man or God!
Who installed the pleasure center in the brain to experience carnal pleasures?

What does God say about the way we should treat children?
Flip a coin. There's "kill the brats" God and "be cool to the wee little angels" God.

Who obeys God or even considers Him or His Words relevant anymore?
Ask God instead of a dead book.

We made this bed against God's wishes.
God must not wish it very hard if He isn't defending His wishes.

An ungodly society is a result of turning away from His exhortations and teachings.
What about the "Godly" people following all the violent crap?

God judicially executed the people of Sodom for their great wickedness.
Do we have evidence for this? And what of Gomorrah, which wasn't even IN that story and STILL got destroyed?

The haughty Egyptians defied Jehovah by refusing to release his people from captivity
God hardened Pharoah's heart specifically.
 

ukok102nak

Active Member
. ... as it is written
:read:
Genesis 18:20
And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which has come unto me; and if not, I will know.
22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.

23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Will you also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
24 Possibly there be fifty righteous within the city: will you also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
25 That be far from you to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from you: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
26 And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.
27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the LORD, which am but dust and ashes:
28 Possibly there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: will you destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.
29 And he spoke unto him yet again, and said, Possibly there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake.
30 And he said unto him, Oh let not the LORD be angry, and I will speak: Possibly there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.
31 And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the LORD: Possibly there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake.
32 And he said, Oh let not the LORD be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Possibly ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.
33 And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.

... . so as it is written
:read:
Jude 7
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

~;> as they say
as it is written
:read:
Proverbs 30:12
There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness.
13 There is a generation, O how lofty are their eyes! and their eyelids are lifted up.
14 There is a generation, whose teeth are as swords, and their jaw teeth as knives, to devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy from among men.

that's why
:read: (as it is written)
Psalms 95:1
O come, let us sing unto the LORD: let us make a joyful noise to the rock of our salvation.
2 Let us come before his presence with thanksgiving, and make a joyful noise unto him with psalms.
3 For the LORD is a great God, and a great King above all gods.


:ty:



godbless unto all always
 

Shad

Veteran Member
Why do you think it's false comparison?
We obey the laws whether we like it or not? disobeying the laws can be criminal.

The police are limited and have no control over my mind in the same way as Allah.

This isn't about laws it is about Allah making people unable to even believe in Allah which is a violation of free will.
 
Top