Is it God's will when children are raped tortured, and murdered?

[Spiderman]

God killed babies that never sinned and told people to hack them up with swords....
~;> ACTUALLY THERE IS NO WRITTEN
RECORD IN THE BIBLE WHICH STATED
IN THAT PARAGRAPH .. . .
. . .. SO IT WAS ALL A MISCONCEPTION
TO SAY ANYTHING IN THE SCRIPTURES WHICH ARE NOT WRITTEN . ...
NOR TELLING ANY CIRCUMSTANCES THAT IS MANIFESTED WITHIN THE HOLY BOOK PRIOR TO ITS EXACT SITUATION
THAT'S WHY s

You clearly don't know your Bible and when I get to a computer at my convenience, I said id share the verses.

Of course God killed babies , pregnant women, and children who never sinned.... He flooded the earth... And how silly it is to think that when he killed the first born, they had all reached the age of reason to be guilty of sin.

God ordered the Israelites to annihilate cities including women and children.

So, God killed children who were more innocent than you are (hopefully they have a better place to go afterwards, but still, the question was "does God want some of his children tortured and killed?" Hmm... Is the Pope Catholic? Does a bear defecate in the woods? )

 

[Spiderman]

Also, I almost drowned to death.... Came very close to the point where when I reached land I was temporarily blind from oxygen deprivation and had a splitting headache and exhaustion for the rest of the day.

Drowning to death is a scary , panicky, torturous way to die. To die amidst such torture and fear is not warranted to those who have never even consciously chose to commit what they knew to be a "sin".

Not all those killed in the flood genocide were sinners.

However, since I want to give God the benefit of the doubt, im willing to embrace three possibilities.

A) it was the merciful thing to do and they went to a far better place where they were happy about their lot

b) not all that is attributed to God in the Old Testament was mandated by God

C) God repented and grew in compassion

But the Old Testament is often the opposite of what Jesus taught, so I don't think Jesus is very offended that I'm disgusted with it, (for it goes against my conscience as the epitome of tyranny and cruelty and goes against the morality and ethics Christ taught us ) or that I doubt some of it's authenticity.

 

[1robin]

I see you can't answer a simple yes or no question which is completely relative to the conversation about God giving the wolf permission to tear apart the sheep.

Since you can't answer a simple question 100% relevant to the thread topic demonstrates your credibility ....and until you answer the question, checkmate!

Exodus 9:12 ►
Parallel Verses
New International Version
But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses.

So, God hardens Pharaoh's heart and then kills innocent children for the hardness of Pharoah's heart.

God killed babies that never sinned and told people to hack them up with swords.... But you answered " no, it isn't god's will that some of his children get tortured and murdered "....Brilliant!

I didn't say I'm Christian according to someone else's definition, I said " im a Christian in so far as... "

Tell me, which verses in the Bible say what a Christian is.... So, someone who questions the accuracy of the Old Testament and disagrees with God's actions isn't Christian? Where does it say that in the Bible.

Okay, I'm not Christian according to your definition of Christianity and your interpretation of Scripture.

Beings that you deny the obvious and shy away from simple questions 100% relevant to the topic ( repeatedly presented to you,) goes to show your level of credibility and poor abilities at debating.

Due to your clear demonstration of denying the obvious and ruining your credibility, it doesn't bother me too much that you claim I'm not Christian

I have previously stated that I would not continue to whip your questions into ones that actually apply until you explain to me why you think your a Christian. There is a world of difference concerning the knowledge level of an actual Christian and someone who is unregenerate but who thinks they are a Christian. I can not know whether a given correct response is accurate so I must give you the benefit of the doubt in the case of a correct description, but it is easy to draw negative conclusions when blatantly incorrect descriptions are given compared to Christ's own descriptions. You are making my conclusion a slam dunk but I don't want to give up on you so I will give you one last chance to supply an actual response before I give it up as something you are not going to supply because you cannot supply it. Currently I am debating a person who claims to have a doctorate in theology but who's argumentation and unwillingness to provide any kind of evidence that they have any degree in theology, and you who will not merely state why you claim to be a Christian. In both cases my doubts are affirmed by the failure of both parties to even attempt to supply any actual reason to credit either with what they claim and the type of argumentation that I use requires my believing those claims. So I would not waste your time writing posts until you can supply what I asked, only then will I know how to proceed and will go back and answer your claims. Your continued inability or unwillingness to even spit out a semi biblical description of why you claim to be a Christian just makes things worse.

 

[1robin]

Also, this quote demonstrates your clear blatant dishonesty:

"I have tried to respond to silly questions as if they were appropriate and relevant questions as to the issue of "the problem of evil".

You have no excuse for saying something so obviously false when I presented the question more than once in a yes or no form... And the question was about somebody giving somebody permission to kill their kids, which is totally relevant to "the problem of good and evil!

Since you are an adult, I'm assuming you at least have enough ability to identify the obvious to know your statement is complete falsehood!

(as any rational thinker who witnesses your blunder can see as clearly as knowing gravity pulled a falling object down rather than up....

...Meaning , to deny your falsehood was false would be like denying that objects fall down rather than up.... Meaning, you deny the obvious as everyone (including you) can see .

I cannot tell if these posts are addressed to me or people as a whole, but since I called a halt until you answer my question so I know how to proceed it doesn't matter until you respond to that question. I am simply letting you know not to waste your time until then.

 

[Spiderman]

I have previously stated that I would not continue to whip your questions into ones that actually apply until you explain to me why you think your a Christian. There is a world of difference concerning the knowledge level of an actual Christian and someone who is unregenerate but who thinks they are a Christian. I can not know whether a given correct response is accurate so I must give you the benefit of the doubt in the case of a correct description, but it is easy to draw negative conclusions when blatantly incorrect descriptions are given compared to Christ's own descriptions. You are making my conclusion a slam dunk but I don't want to give up on you so I will give you one last chance to supply an actual response before I give it up as something you are not going to supply because you cannot supply it. Currently I am debating a person who claims to have a doctorate in theology but who's argumentation and unwillingness to provide any kind of evidence that they have any degree in theology, and you who will not merely state why you claim to be a Christian. In both cases my doubts are affirmed by the failure of both parties to even attempt to supply any actual reason to credit either with what they claim and the type of argumentation that I use requires my believing those claims. So I would not waste your time writing posts until you can supply what I asked, only then will I know how to proceed and will go back and answer your claims. Your continued inability or unwillingness to even spit out a semi biblical description of why you claim to be a Christian just makes things worse.

What you're saying is completely nonsensical.

A) whether I'm a Christian or not is not relevant to the topic of "does God will that some of his children get tortured and murdered." The Question I asked you was 100% relevant.

B) what a Christian is, isn't clearly defined in the Bible, for theologians who dedicated themselves to the study of scripture still disagree about what is and is not a Christian.

For more than 1500 years your Baptist hybrid of Christianity didn't even exist. For all you know it could seriously be lacking in what Christ wanted in a Church ( beings that for more than 15 generations of Christianity, no one invented the Baptist Church )

C) you have once again been dishonest and given another of many blows to your credibility, for I never once claimed to have a Doctorate... (a person doesn't need a Doctorate to be able to identify the obvious )

So, there is no need for you to know or me to know whether I'm a Christian to have this conversation. It is quite irrelevant.

I told you what I believe, and I told you what I doubt , therefore, I answered your question, now answer mine and quit trying to cover up the fact that you lost the conversation by turning this into a discussion about what is the proper definition of Christianity )

I confess Jesus is Lord, believe he died for my sins, believe he rose from the dead.... According to the Bible I'm going to Heaven... SWEEET!

 

[1robin]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Vatican_City

Thanks for the info. Now it makes sense. When I was told it was the flag of a specific Pope it did not make sense, but a Vatican flag is logical.

 

[Spiderman]

My basis for calling the Baptist Church a hybrid is :

Historians trace the earliest church labeled "Baptist" back to 1609 in Amsterdam, withEnglish Separatist John Smyth as its pastor.[/quote ]

It's kind of hard to think a Baptist denomination was all that necessary to Jesus, beings that he waited till the 17th century for someone to invent such a version of Christiany

 

[Spiderman]

The reason I said "flag of the guy in the avatar" (which it was his flag as well ) was I thought you already knew what the Vatican flag was , and that your question was really just another one of your off-topic, completely irrelevant questions to derail a conversation you can't win.

Since you sincerely didn't know that was the Vatican (Papal, ) flag, I apologize for not being more thorough in explaining it to you

Now how about you answer my simple yes or no questions (completely relevant to the OP)

 

[1robin]

What you're saying is completely nonsensical.

A) whether I'm a Christian or not is not relevant to the topic of "does God will that some of his children get tortured and murdered." The Question I asked you was 100% relevant.

It most certainly is sensible. The bible says that those who are not believers are blind concerning God's truth and walk in darkness. It is easy to see how a person like that is getting scriptural argumentation so messed up and this type of person requires one type of argumentation while a person who is a Christian and should be able to comprehend God's revelation and should not be stumbling around the blackness of ignorance would require a different type of argumentation. However a person who claims to be a Christian but is making the same arguments as a spiritually blind person makes them impossible to comprehend, understand, and account for.

B) what a Christian is, isn't clearly defined in the Bible, for theologians who dedicated themselves to the study of scripture still disagree about what is and is not a Christian.

That is not quite accurate. Virtually all mainstream Christian denominations agree as to what creates a Christian but they disagree at times as to what preserves a Christian. I will supply what Christ himself claims makes a Christian and what is virtually unanimously agreed to by all mainstream Christian denominations. .

Born from Above
3 1-2 There was a man of the Pharisee sect, Nicodemus, a prominent leader among the Jews. Late one night he visited Jesus and said, “Rabbi, we all know you’re a teacher straight from God. No one could do all the God-pointing, God-revealing acts you do if God weren’t in on it.”

3 Jesus said, “You’re absolutely right. Take it from me: Unless a person is born from above, it’s not possible to see what I’m pointing to—to God’s kingdom.”

4 “How can anyone,” said Nicodemus, “be born who has already been born and grown up? You can’t re-enter your mother’s womb and be born again. What are you saying with this ‘born-from-above’ talk?”

5-6 Jesus said, “You’re not listening. Let me say it again. Unless a person submits to this original creation—the ‘wind-hovering-over-the-water’ creation, the invisible moving the visible, a baptism into a new life—it’s not possible to enter God’s kingdom. When you look at a baby, it’s just that: a body you can look at and touch. But the person who takes shape within is formed by something you can’t see and touch—the Spirit—and becomes a living spirit.

7-8 “So don’t be so surprised when I tell you that you have to be ‘born from above’—out of this world, so to speak. You know well enough how the wind blows this way and that. You hear it rustling through the trees, but you have no idea where it comes from or where it’s headed next. That’s the way it is with everyone ‘born from above’ by the wind of God, the Spirit of God.”

9 Nicodemus asked, “What do you mean by this? How does this happen?”

10-12 Jesus said, “You’re a respected teacher of Israel and you don’t know these basics? Listen carefully. I’m speaking sober truth to you. I speak only of what I know by experience; I give witness only to what I have seen with my own eyes. There is nothing secondhand here, no hearsay. Yet instead of facing the evidence and accepting it, you procrastinate with questions. If I tell you things that are plain as the hand before your face and you don’t believe me, what use is there in telling you of things you can’t see, the things of God?

13-15 “No one has ever gone up into the presence of God except the One who came down from that Presence, the Son of Man. In the same way that Moses lifted the serpent in the desert so people could have something to see and then believe, it is necessary for the Son of Man to be lifted up—and everyone who looks up to him, trusting and expectant, will gain a real life, eternal life.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+3&version=MSG

That is an expended description of John 3. The short version would be that the exact moment we are born again (from above) we become Christian and this entails a thousand changes to our spirit and souls including our ability to properly interpret scripture because the spirit of truth (the Holy Spirit) comes to live in us at that moment and then attempts to lead us into all truth. A person who this happens to is a completely different creature that this does not happen to. The difference is dark night verses well lit day concerning our understanding scripture.

What is a point of division is whether what we receive by grace must be maintained by merit. There should not be a division and countless scriptures make it clear that we are saved by grace alone and do not have to keep earning that which we received without earning. God paid the entire price to save me. I must only and merely accept my pardon and have nothing to offer to keep it. Those Catholics who believed based on church tradition are simply wrong. I studied the nature of salvation daily for 3 years without pause. I studied it more intensely during those three years more than all other biblical doctrines combined and have studied it less intently for the 17 years since that time frame. It is accordingly my scriptural specialty. Every thing else is derivative from that event in a persons life. That is why it must established at the beginning of any in depth debate. Most of the time a person establishes at the start what they are, and most of the time I do not find cause to question their position with God as I find no compelling reason to doubt them. However your claims did cause me to doubt your status because anyone who is forgiven and is born again is bathed in God's unconditional love and knows that anything evil attributed to him must be that persons mistake. I do not question a slight inconsistency but when I run into completely bitter accusations against God in general I do doubt. Your claims remind me of mines at the height of my anger with God when I was an atheist and so my doubt is justifiable. Since everything flows from our position in regard to our response to Christ's offer and the enlightenment that comes from it, I suggest we resolve that issue first and if you agree we can switch topics to that issue before moving on.

For more than 1500 years your Baptist hybrid of Christianity didn't even exist. For all you know it could seriously be lacking in what Christ wanted in a Church ( beings that for more than 15 generations of Christianity, no one invented the Baptist Church )

C) you have once again been dishonest and given another of many blows to your credibility, for I never once claimed to have a Doctorate... (a person doesn't need a Doctorate to be able to identify the obvious )

So, there is no need for you to know or me to know whether I'm a Christian to have this conversation. It is quite irrelevant.

It is the most relevant issue possible as on it hangs our ability to actually know God's true nature. Scripture is to be studied in the light of our experiencing God.

I told you what I believe, and I told you what I doubt , therefore, I answered your question, now answer mine and quit trying to cover up the fact that you lost the conversation by turning this into a discussion about what is the proper definition of Christianity )

I confess Jesus is Lord, believe he died for my sins, believe he rose from the dead.... According to the Bible I'm going to Heaven... SWEEET!

Then why are you so bitter and so quick to condemn entire categories of God's actions or permissiveness as fomenting evil after experiencing the only true peace, agape love, and true forgiveness despite your not meriting any of them based on God paying the entire price to provide them for you despite your and my being devoid of merit? I cannot venture further into your line of declarations until we clear this up.

 

[Jonathan Ainsley Bain]

Nothing torments my mind more than hearing about children being sexually assaulted , tortured, and killed. What I find also slightly mind -boggling is how many Christians say "God never wills that should happen to anyone. "

How can a person really make such an argument? If you have a daughter that you knew from her birth was going to be slain by a serial killer.... You knew who the serial killer was, where he lived, you could have found ways to get him arrested or killed, or you could have moved to another state, and instead you just let it play out, then you clearly willed your daughter to be the prey of a serial killer.

If it was God's will that his own son (Jesus) be tortured, humiliated, and executed, it would be a bit of a stretch to assume he doesn't will such things to happen to his other children as well (just look at the fate of the early Christians ).

So, your prayer for your son or daughter may be that they become a missionary, have a big happy family, do well in school, stay safe and healthy etc. , but God may will they get murdered in high school.

If you let a terrorist into your house , knowing with 100% certainty that He will blow it up ( long in advance you knew where he stored his weapons and could have got him arrested) it is because it was your will he would blow up your house.

If God didn't want people to be tortured and murdered, then it wouldn't be happening every day, would not have happened to the prophets, the Apostles, the early Christians, or so many Christians today.

Paul, Jesus, and so many Christians counted it an honor to suffer and die for their Righteousness.
2 Corinthians 12:10
That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

Any thoughts?

Once again, If I am a Father, and someone is going to kill my child, and I know it will happen in advance, and I could arrange circumstances so that my child can escape , or restrain the man (Or get police to restrain him) and instead I let the person kill my child, it is because I willed it.

The people who crucified Christ were only fulfilling the method by which God wanted his son to be glorified. Scripture makes that clear.

John 12:23 ►
Jesus replied, "The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified (Crucified)...

But please... If you think im wrong about this, do share...thanks

If those who cause suffering, did not suffer because of it, they would not act to stop suffering.
Its all about free will, karma, and reincarnation.

 

[1robin]

The reason I said "flag of the guy in the avatar" (which it was his flag as well ) was I thought you already knew what the Vatican flag was , and that your question was really just another one of your off-topic, completely irrelevant questions to derail a conversation you can't win.

Since you sincerely didn't know that was the Vatican (Papal, ) flag, I apologize for not being more thorough in explaining it to you

Now how about you answer my simple yes or no questions (completely relevant to the OP)

I reject so many Catholic traditions and think they have probably damaged Christianity in the eyes of the world more than just about any organization in history so I have never investigated the minutia of that denominations but have studied in depth their heresies and disobedience. The one thing I do consider a virtue of Catholicism is their work in spiritual warfare but have never studied their vagaries as in the flag usage. Your not a Catholic are you?

What question was it you claim merits a yes or no answer. Just to be consider it I will answer that specific question if I feel it merits a simplistic response before we resolve the much more basic issue I have raised but don't waste your time adding additional question before my basic issue is resolved as the character of my responses hinge on the more basic issue being resolved. Once we do then I can answer all those questions you ask that I have skipped for the time being. First things first.

BTW you keep forgetting to address many of your posts to a single individual. It is only by chance I read this one and concluded it was aimed at me.

 

[1robin]

stated

If those who cause suffering, did not suffer because of it, they would not act to stop suffering.
Its all about free will, karma, and reincarnation.

I agreed with you up until you mentioned re-incarnation. Reincarnation is the most irrational theological world view I could possibly think of. It defies it's own purpose.

 

[Jonathan Ainsley Bain]

stated I agreed with you up until you mentioned re-incarnation. Reincarnation is the most irrational theological world view I could possibly think of. It defies it's own purpose.

How does it defy its own purpose?

 

[1robin]

How does it defy its own purpose?

The purpose of re-incarnation in Buddhism is to gradually over time lead us into making better and more enlightened decisions because we could learn from our past lives mistakes until we achieve enlightenment, at which time I have never heard what happens. Regardless to properly learn from our past lives so as to improve on them we need to have open access to our past live's so as to learn lessons from them. However this is exactly where reincarnation completely fails. No one has free access to any previous lives lived. It is only that unbelievably rare individual who claims to even have a tiny window into a previous life and it is only gained through very very rare and very questionable means. However it gets even more bizarre, in oriental mysticism and philosophy we are not to look to choose the good and shun the bad. We are instead to do something completely illogical, we are to learn that two opposites (good and evil) actually do not exist but both are the same. In 20 + years of almost obsessive interest in theological debate I have never heard of a theological world view that irrational. Thank goodness there is virtually nothing to suggest it is true. It certainly has not led India to become more advanced and moral than other nations. The only advancement the country has made in recent memory is because of influence from other more advanced theistic countries on it. That is less a reflection on Indians whom I admire but on Hinduism which has retarded that country for thousands of years.

 

[Spiderman]

I reject so many Catholic traditions and think they have probably damaged Christianity in the eyes of the world more than just about any organization in history so I have never investigated the minutia of that denominations but have studied in depth their heresies and disobedience. The one thing I do consider a virtue of Catholicism is their work in spiritual warfare but have never studied their vagaries as in the flag usage. Your not a Catholic are you?

What question was it you claim merits a yes or no answer. Just to be consider it I will answer that specific question if I feel it merits a simplistic response before we resolve the much more basic issue I have raised but don't waste your time adding additional question before my basic issue is resolved as the character of my responses hinge on the more basic issue being resolved. Once we do then I can answer all those questions you ask that I have skipped for the time being. First things first.

BTW you keep forgetting to address many of your posts to a single individual. It is only by chance I read this one and concluded it was aimed at me.

I asked you more than once, If you have a babysitter who gives someone (they aren't scared of ) permission to kill your kids, would you believe an argument stating that they didn't want any harm to come to your children? Yes or no.

If you can't answer that question, you have lost the argument (it is completely relevant to whether or not the Father wants some of his children to be tortured and murdered , which is what the topic of this discussion was to be about).

Regarding whether I'm a Christian or not, is a totally different topic than "Does God will that some people are tortured and murdered" so I started another thread on that issue:
http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/what-is-a-christian.189958/

 

[Spiderman]

Then why are you so bitter and so quick to condemn entire categories of God's actions or permissiveness as fomenting evil after experiencing the only true peace, agape love, and true forgiveness despite your not meriting any of them based on God paying the entire price to provide them for you despite your and my being devoid of merit? I cannot venture further into your line of declarations until we clear this up.

I believe it would benefit everyone if God would enlighten people to know the truth, so it ticks me off to see the misery that happens as a result of him refusing to...I already told you God didn't do any evil. IF God wants innocent people tortured, raped, and killed, that isn't evil...because if it is okay in God's eyes, than it obviously is okay, and God determines all of his actions are good...just cuz I think it is atrocious, I don't get to decide what is good or evil.

Please answer this question:
If you have a pet mouse, and you let a boa constrictor go into the aquarium, and you sit back and watch the outcome, it is because you wanted the snake to eat the mouse, right? Would it violate the mouse's free-will to not let the snake into it's cage?

 

[1robin]

I asked you more than once, If you have a babysitter who gives someone (they aren't scared of ) permission to kill your kids, would you believe an argument stating that they didn't want any harm to come to your children. Yes or no.

Answering with a yes or no to this analogy is meaningless since you did not link your allegory to a biblical literal, so I refuse to indict a bible verse you failed to link your characterization to. I knew there was very good reason I was not willing to supply an answer to a disingenuous question. You must first demonstrate your allegory is a proper representation to some part of the bible before I can legitimize it by answering it. So again I rightly refuse you attempt to blindly get me to answer a question so you can then condemn a bible teaching that you would not provide. I had every intention of providing a one word answer to whatever question you referred to but I cannot do so without being unjust to whatever bible story you did not provide. I cannot even think of a bible story your bizarre question would apply to even if you butchered it up in translating it.

If you can't answer that question, you have lost the argument (it is completely relevant to whether or not the Father wants some of his children to be tortured and murdered , which is what the topic of this discussion was to be about).

You attempted to clarify what bible story you refused to supply by not supplying it yet again. This is disingenuous and so it requires me to yet again attempt to make your claims by responding using an analogy as you have done instead of by a literal to answer the literal you should have provided. Let me again try to make this relevant by answering it by analogy since it is one.

Just as God may allow an evil to occur it by no means makes him desirous to begin with. My apology will use a modern day company. No company wants their products be returned yet companies will allow them to be returned because they have economically justifiable reasons to accept the returns. This is the same dynamic God uses in being morally justifiable in letting evil occur.

No you have a very simplistic and accurate allegory to utilize to analyze what God does. I had to supply this because your analogy does not accurately describe any verse you provided and the bible not invented stories are what we are supposed to be discussing so I am attempting to try and steer back to the subject matter actually in question, the bizarre stories un connected to any bible verses you forgot to supply. So I am not going to supply a vicarious blanket indictment that you want to use to use to dismiss parts of a bible you find inconvenient but are not actually contending with.

Regarding whether I'm a Christian or not, is a totally different topic than "Does God will that some people are tortured and murdered" so I started another thread on that issue:
http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/what-is-a-christian.189958/

I have already explained in detail why you must believe to properly understand the bible as stated in the actual bible it's self. You really need to let the entire book weigh in on a study of it rather than tearing out pieces you do not like, like Thomas Jefferson famously did. Even a cursory study of great philosophers and/or professional debaters will show that all forms of "the problem of evil" are untenable when properly understood. I will give you another reason in addition to spiritual blindness to first conclude (if in doubt) whether a person has been made spiritually alive in Christ or is looking at the bible as through a dirty window which distorts all that is beheld. The bible allows only two position for individuals with massively different outcomes, there is no neutrality when it comes to God. I do not care what a person claims they are have either been made alive with Christ which should be apparent or our minds are yet at enmity to God. One of the most obvious ways which this becomes apparent is that no matter what a person claims what are they actually doing. In your case you spend a sentence claiming you know God (who is love), and spend a couple hundred bitterly claiming God does evil and you do not even do so using his own word but instead invent inaccurate allegories and expect me to condemn God's action based on them. I am very reluctant to declare my belief that someone who claims to be a Christian is actually not (and have not actually do so concerning you, yet) but you are checking of every box I use to conclude that question in a negative manner, and you just keep piling it on. You are not helping me in anyway to conclude what I wish I could concerning you.

 

[Spiderman]

@robin1
@ukok102nak

We can get God to change his mind as Moses and other prophets did. But the God of the Bible thought this is okay and I don't tolerate pure cruelty, even if some ancient text claims that God says it's good.

Exodus 21:20-21 – "If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property."

Leviticus 20:10 - 'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.

Genesis 3:16 - "To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."" (God is clearly desiring the agony and torture of women).


Isaiah 13:15-18 - "Whoever is captured will be thrust through; all who are caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be looted and their wives ravished. See, I will stir up against them the Medes, who do not care for silver and have no delight in gold. Their bows will strike down the young men; they will have no mercy on infants nor will they look with compassion on children." (God wants children and infants who never sinned to be tortured and killed....why do you deny the obvious? )

Hosea 13:16 - "The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open." (what did these little ones do that they deserved Capital punishment? )

2 Chronicles 15:12-13 - "They entered into a covenant to seek the LORD, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul. All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman."

Deuteronomy 13:12-19 - "If you hear it said about one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you to live in that wicked men have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods you have not known), then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. Destroy it completely, a both its people and its livestock. (that would include babies)

Exodus 31:15 ►
Parallel Verses
New International Version
For six days work is to be done, but the seventh day is a day of sabbath rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day is to be put to death."

So, you don't think it is completely insane to kill someone for working on the wrong day of the week???

1 Samuel 15:3 ►
Parallel Verses
New International Version
Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'"

So, a God who commits the same war crimes as Adolf Hitler doesn't will that children get raped, tortured, and murdered? Brilliant!

Now, beings that Jesus preached that we should love even our enemies and that the entire law hangs on love GOd and love your neighbor as yourself, leads me to the conclusion that Jesus was a rebel against much of what was taught in the Old Testament (because he condemned such ruthless behavior repeatedly). Perhaps the Old Testament contained much falsehood about God, or God changed a lot about his views, methods, and policies.

It is possible that compassion can grow even with God....(or the Old Testament is false..one or the other

 

[Spiderman]

Answering with a yes or no to this analogy is meaningless since you did not link your allegory to a biblical literal, so I refuse to indict a bible verse you failed to link your characterization to. I knew there was very good reason I was not willing to supply an answer to a disingenuous question. You must first demonstrate your allegory is a proper representation to some part of the bible before I can legitimize it by answering it. So again I rightly refuse you attempt to blindly get me to answer a question so you can then condemn a bible teaching that you would not provide. I had every intention of providing a one word answer to whatever question you referred to but I cannot do so without being unjust to whatever bible story you did not provide. I cannot even think of a bible story your bizarre question would apply to even if you butchered it up in translating it.

You attempted to clarify what bible story you refused to supply by not supplying it yet again. This is disingenuous and so it requires me to yet again attempt to make your claims by responding using an analogy as you have done instead of by a literal to answer the literal you should have provided. Let me again try to make this relevant by answering it by analogy since it is one.

Just as God may allow an evil to occur it by no means makes him desirous to begin with. My apology will use a modern day company. No company wants their products be returned yet companies will allow them to be returned because they have economically justifiable reasons to accept the returns. This is the same dynamic God uses in being morally justifiable in letting evil occur.

No you have a very simplistic and accurate allegory to utilize to analyze what God does. I had to supply this because your analogy does not accurately describe any verse you provided and the bible not invented stories are what we are supposed to be discussing so I am attempting to try and steer back to the subject matter actually in question, the bizarre stories un connected to any bible verses you forgot to supply. So I am not going to supply a vicarious blanket indictment that you want to use to use to dismiss parts of a bible you find inconvenient but are not actually contending with.

I have already explained in detail why you must believe to properly understand the bible as stated in the actual bible it's self. You really need to let the entire book weigh in on a study of it rather than tearing out pieces you do not like, like Thomas Jefferson famously did. Even a cursory study of great philosophers and/or professional debaters will show that all forms of "the problem of evil" are untenable when properly understood. I will give you another reason in addition to spiritual blindness to first conclude (if in doubt) whether a person has been made spiritually alive in Christ or is looking at the bible as through a dirty window which distorts all that is beheld. The bible allows only two position for individuals with massively different outcomes, there is no neutrality when it comes to God. I do not care what a person claims they are have either been made alive with Christ which should be apparent or our minds are yet at enmity to God. One of the most obvious ways which this becomes apparent is that no matter what a person claims what are they actually doing. In your case you spend a sentence claiming you know God (who is love), and spend a couple hundred bitterly claiming God does evil and you do not even do so using his own word but instead invent inaccurate allegories and expect me to condemn God's action based on them. I am very reluctant to declare my belief that someone who claims to be a Christian is actually not (and have not actually do so concerning you, yet) but you are checking of every box I use to conclude that question in a negative manner, and you just keep piling it on. You are not helping me in anyway to conclude what I wish I could concerning you.

The Topic is not about Biblical Allegories, so you are absolutely admitting defeat by not answering a simple question. Asking a question about faith and morals that is totally relevant to the discussion is something anyone trying to save face in a debate would answer...You know what I'm getting at and you know you've lost the arguement, because your premise is nonsensical.

God gave Satan permission to kill Jobs family...Satan needed his permission...if a babysitter gives a murderer permission to kill your kids, would you believe that the babysitter didn't want anyone to harm your kids...yes or no?

 

[Spiderman]

@1robin
Did God create the serpent and let it into a garden knowing in advance it would lead Adam and eve and all of us to death?

Please answer this question:
If you have a pet mouse, and you let a boa constrictor go into the aquarium, and you sit back and watch the outcome, it is because you wanted the snake to eat the mouse, right? Would it violate the mouse's free-will to not let the snake into it's cage?

He most certainly is the Father who refused to tell his daughter not to get into the car with that serial killer, and knew the serial killer was going to kill her years in advance, and didn't warn her...this means Dad wanted his daughter to get raped and killed. That is obvious. End of story!

You lost the argument. You know your answer, so you can answer the simple yes or no questions and it is completely juvenile that repeatedly you refuse to. You know your answer so simply say it rather than come up with infantile excuses for not