Is it true?

[Vinayaka]

Alchemically? Really? (Uproarious sardonic laughter) Alchemy was debunked long, long ago. It was never anything but fraud and pathetic superstition.

If Bahai's are into alchemy, their system is discredited.

Bahai's just believe whatever their prophet said, because he's infallible. If he would have said the tallest mountain on this planet was one in Iran, they'd believe it. This isn't the only unscientific belief they have. Another is the 'fact' that every planet anywhere has life on it. Mercury, Venus, Pluto, all those planets that no scientist would think has life ... well they do.

Not only is it that 'I'm right and you're wrong.' but that's extended to "I'm right and you're wrong, AND that fact is blatantly obvious." So it's all just an extension of infallibility. Illogical to you and me and most people, but obvious to the Baha'i.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

It seems to be talking about an event inside people using a symbolic description. Is it true? I believe it is in the sense that everyone who experienced God will think that a transformation has happened inside of themselves.

If taken literally. Whether copper changes to gold over 70 years after excavation... it does not. Scientists can transmute other elements to gold. I believe the first to do this was Seaborg.

I don't think anybody tried
"Were it to be protected in its own mine from becoming solidified, it would, within the space of seventy years, attain to the state of gold."

To understand as to what is "Elixir" in the extended quote from Bahaullah, I give its etymology, please:

elixir (n.)
mid-13c., from Medieval Latin elixir "philosopher's stone," believed by alchemists to transmute baser metals into gold and/or to cure diseases and prolong life, from Arabic al-iksir "the philosopher's stone," probably from late Greek xerion "powder for drying wounds," from xeros "dry" (see xerasia). Later in medical use for "a tincture with more than one base." General sense of "strong tonic" is 1590s; used for quack medicines from at least 1630s.

elixir | Origin and meaning of elixir by Online Etymology Dictionary

Regards

Bahaullah wrote in the same Book, Alchemy is an absurd science. He also wrote in the same Book, philosopher's stone is nonexistent.
The Book of Iqan is indeed is a miracle. When it is read carefully, everytime a new thing is discovered in it. It has all the answers to the Religious teachings which people differ on them.

 

[paarsurrey]

Bahai's just believe whatever their prophet said, because he's infallible. If he would have said the tallest mountain on this planet was one in Iran, they'd believe it. This isn't the only unscientific belief they have. Another is the 'fact' that every planet anywhere has life on it. Mercury, Venus, Pluto, all those planets that no scientist would think has life ... well they do.

Not only is it that 'I'm right and you're wrong.' but that's extended to "I'm right and you're wrong, AND that fact is blatantly obvious." So it's all just an extension of infallibility. Illogical to you and me and most people, but obvious to the Baha'i.

"Another is the 'fact' that every planet anywhere has life on it. Mercury, Venus, Pluto, all those planets that no scientist would think has life ... well they do."

Did Bahaullah say it somewhere, please?
If yes, please quote from him.

Regards

 

[ManSinha]

I don't think anybody tried
"Were it to be protected in its own mine from becoming solidified, it would, within the space of seventy years, attain to the state of gold."

Are you serious? !!!!

 

[Vinayaka]

"Another is the 'fact' that every planet anywhere has life on it. Mercury, Venus, Pluto, all those planets that no scientist would think has life ... well they do."

Did Bahaullah say it somewhere, please?
If yes, please quote from him.

Regards

Just from earlier discussions here, Paar. Try googling it.

 

[ManSinha]

"Another is the 'fact' that every planet anywhere has life on it. Mercury, Venus, Pluto, all those planets that no scientist would think has life ... well they do."

Did Bahaullah say it somewhere, please?
If yes, please quote from him.

Regards

 

[Vinayaka]

View attachment 27568

Thanks for covering for my laziness. This entire debate is rather stale for me.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Are you serious? !!!!

Why not?!

 

[InvestigateTruth]

View attachment 27568

In Bahai Scriptures minerals are also 'creatures', and have mineral spirit. All things are considered 'living', albeit at different levels. And all things bear a name of God, and at a level are considered a manifestation of His attributes.

 

[loverofhumanity]

As usual - twisting the words of the other to make one's own point

I never said "We do not have problems"

Re read again or make an appointment with your local optometrist or get a bigger computer screen if you cannot see

I decried your world view as dismal -

That is a far cry from "We do not have problems" -

While we do have instances of hate - we have always had them - humanity always rises above - the vast majority of people strive to bette themselves and take care of their fellow beings who are suffering - we have come a long way from the so-called dark ages with advances in medicine to allay suffering, communications (case in point) and our general understanding of the Universe that surrounds us - consider the recent confirmation of light bending predicted by Einstein - added to that is facts about groups of humans caring about species going extinct to try and salvage some of them - including plants - that to me promises a better more enlightened tomorrow

And you side stepped my question entirely -



I am not usually given to using harsh language - but here I shall say it - put up or shut up

The Most Holy Book was revealed by Baha’u’llah Himself.These are the Words of a Manifestation of God. They are the Words of God. It has nothing to do with non Baha’i teachings so I don’t know what you are meaning.

There is no need to be harsh or lose patience. We can discuss with patience, courtesy and detachment as brothers.

 

[ManSinha]

The Most Holy Book was revealed by Baha’u’llah Himself.These are the Words of a Manifestation of God. They are the Words of God. It has nothing to do with non Baha’i teachings so I don’t know what you are meaning.

There is no need to be harsh or lose patience. We can discuss with patience, courtesy and detachment as brothers.

You claim the religion fosters Universal Brotherhood - as an outsider I see that words only - while you proclaim exclusivity for a number of reasons - apparently the prophet did not recognize that anyone else could have a similar message

Now you claim that Words of a Manifestation of God = Words of God - I do not know about my fellow posters here - but that is one humongous leap

There is no need to be harsh or lose patience. We can discuss with patience, courtesy and detachment as brothers.

Then stop trying to twist my words to suit your needs of the moment - and we can be brothers all right - when you admit that the Bah'ai way is one of the many ways to the Lord - not the only one

 

[TransmutingSoul]

How would one comment on the following, please?:

"Fact or Fiction?: Lead Can Be Turned into Gold"
Fact or Fiction?: Lead Can Be Turned into Gold

Regards

This was the answer;

"Is it ever possible,” they ask, “for copper to be transmuted into gold?” Say, Yes, by my Lord, it is possible. Its secret, however, lieth hidden in Our Knowledge. We will reveal it unto whom We will. Whoso doubteth Our power, let him ask the Lord his God, that He may disclose unto him the secret, and assure him of its truth. That copper can be turned into gold is in itself sufficient proof that gold can, in like manner, be transmuted into copper, if they be of them that can apprehend this truth. Every mineral can be made to acquire the density, form, and substance of each and every other mineral. The knowledge thereof is with Us in the Hidden Book."
(Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 197-198)

From my understanding of Science and how it will unfold in the material world is that humanity is not ready for the power that will enable this, the unity of humanity is required. We still like threatening each other with nuclear bombs, what would we do with power that could take out worlds?

God protects us from our own ingnorance.

This was from a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi's and is an answer to your OP.

1580. Copper Can be Transmuted into Gold
"Considering that a century ago, nobody knew the nature of matter, and couldn't split any kind of an atom, it should not surprise the scientist that ‘Abdu’l-Bahá states that copper can be transmuted into gold.
"There may come a time, for all we know, when the mass of many atoms can be changed by scientists. We have no way of proving or disproving at present the statement of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá. Just because we cannot demonstrate a contention in the Bahá’í Teachings does not mean the contention is not true.
"The same holds true of the statement of Bahá’u’lláh in the Íqán, regarding transmutation of copper into gold after seventy years, under certain conditions.
"We as Bahá’ís must assume that, as He had access to all knowledge, He was referring to a definite physical condition which theoretically might exist. Because we don't know what this condition is in scientific terms does not refute Bahá’u’lláh's statement at all.
"The Guardian hopes that Mr. … will not let so small a thing stand in his path. The principle of Faith is to accept anything the Manifestation of God says, once you have accepted Him as being the Manifestation. That is really the crux of the whole matter. It is a question of confidence.".(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, March 14, 1955)

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

In Bahai Scriptures minerals are also 'creatures', and have mineral spirit. All things are considered 'living', albeit at different levels. And all things bear a name of God, and at a level are considered a manifestation of His attributes.

I would check that, from memory Abdul'baha quoted 5 levels of spirit,being;

Vegetable,
Animal
Human
Spirit of Faith
Holy Spirit

The quote;

Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library

Regards Tony

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I would check that, from memory Abdul'baha quoted 5 levels of spirit,being;

Vegetable,
Animal
Human
Spirit of Faith
Holy Spirit

The quote;

Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library

Regards Tony

I was referring to this as well:

"As to the existence of spirit in the mineral: it is indubitable that minerals are endowed with a spirit and life according to the requirements of that stage. This unknown secret, too, hath become known unto the materialists who now maintain that all beings are endowed with life, even as He saith in the Qur’án, ‘All things are living’."

Bahá'í Reference Library - Tablet to August Forel, Pages 6-10

 

[loverofhumanity]

You claim the religion fosters Universal Brotherhood - as an outsider I see that words only - while you proclaim exclusivity for a number of reasons - apparently the prophet did not recognize that anyone else could have a similar message

Now you claim that Words of a Manifestation of God = Words of God - I do not know about my fellow posters here - but that is one humongous leap



Then stop trying to twist my words to suit your needs of the moment - and we can be brothers all right - when you admit that the Bah'ai way is one of the many ways to the Lord - not the only one

Hello. I’m trying to understand you better so I can reach some common understanding. I’m trying to be sincere. Is this what you’re referring to? ......

How Many Paths to God?

Regarding the Word of God. I have always understood that the Words of a Manifestation of God are the Word of God because He speaks on behalf of God. So the Bible, the Gita, the Quran and so on are all the Word of God to me not just the Bahai Writings.

I really don’t mean to twist any of your words and I really want that we are like brothers.

There are many paths to God. I was Christian once and that led me to God. So whatever a person’s belief it can lead to God, it depends upon ones own efforts.

We are pluralists not exclusivist.

I hope this clears some things up.

 

[paarsurrey]

To understand as to what is "Elixir" in the extended quote from Bahaullah, I give its etymology, please:

elixir (n.)
mid-13c., from Medieval Latin elixir "philosopher's stone," believed by alchemists to transmute baser metals into gold and/or to cure diseases and prolong life, from Arabic al-iksir "the philosopher's stone," probably from late Greek xerion "powder for drying wounds," from xeros "dry" (see xerasia). Later in medical use for "a tincture with more than one base." General sense of "strong tonic" is 1590s; used for quack medicines from at least 1630s.

elixir | Origin and meaning of elixir by Online Etymology Dictionary

I further add:
The Alchemical الإكسير al-iksīr ("Elixir").

" A brief note about the term elixir might at this point be useful especially since both the Bāb and Bahā'-Allāh defined, commented upon and variously utilized this term. Historically and etymologically speaking this English word is a latinized form of the Arabic al-iksīr which is related to the Greek xerion (xeros ="dry" indicating a "drying-healing powder" or "metal") indicative of restorative or curative medicinal powders as well as that which effects alchemical transmutation. The term elixir was first used by alchemists to describe the "substance" sometimes known as the "philosopher's stone" (Coudert, Enc. Rel. 5:96) which is also, as will be seen, the subject of comment in Islamic, Shaykhi and Bābī- Bahā'ī literatures.
Alchemical Gnosis in Babi-Baha'i Scripture. | Hurqalya Publications: Center for Shaykhī and Bābī-Bahā’ī Studies

It is a research write-up, I understand, about alchemy and Bābī- Bahā'ī attraction to it, maybe from a Bahai site. Then, I am not against Bahaism people and or Bahaullah. I am an ordinary man in the street in search of truth for may own self and have no claim to any scholarship or any piety, please.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

In the past scientist did not know how to transmute elements. Modern science knows.
Bahaullah is talking about a 70 year process. He is not revealing its details and conditions.
I think you are confusing traditional desire to get rich by converting copper to gold, with what Bahaullah is talking about, which His purpose is to use this as an analogy. Just as it is possible to convert copper to gold, it is possible to convert the lower spiritual state to a higher level of spirituality, by teachings of Manifestations of God.

Is it an analogy or a metaphor, please?:
"to use this as an analogy"

Analogy and Analogical Reasoning
"This article focuses primarily on the nature, evaluation and justification of analogical arguments. Related topics includemetaphor, models in science, and precedent and analogy in legal reasoning.:
Analogy and Analogical Reasoning (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Bahai's just believe whatever their prophet said, because he's infallible. If he would have said the tallest mountain on this planet was one in Iran, they'd believe it. This isn't the only unscientific belief they have. Another is the 'fact' that every planet anywhere has life on it. Mercury, Venus, Pluto, all those planets that no scientist would think has life ... well they do.

Not only is it that 'I'm right and you're wrong.' but that's extended to "I'm right and you're wrong, AND that fact is blatantly obvious." So it's all just an extension of infallibility. Illogical to you and me and most people, but obvious to the Baha'i.

The Bahaism people have such a blind-faith!

Regards

 

[ManSinha]

The Bahaism people have such a blind-faith!

I think you have pushed the issue enough - enough for any one to see that they do not have a good answer and will not concede the fact as my conversation with @InvestigateTruth shows - they want to believe and we can leave it at that - my advise - it is worth exactly what you paid for it.

 

[Vinayaka]

The Bahaism people have such a blind-faith!

Regards

It's not at all unique to Baha'ism. Lots of people have blind faith, and believe in things that are contradictory towards science. In Hinduism (not me personally, mind you) lots of people believe the Purana stories are literal history. Things like Gods chopping heads off of other Gods, beings with 10 heads, or extra arms, these things people believe are actually history. In fundamentalist Christianity, people believe in Noah's Ark or Adam and Eve as being the literal truth. I'm sure that in Islam we could find something that contradicts science.