Is it true?

[InvestigateTruth]

Just in the copper thing ... what he said was that if is left untouched, in a pure state it would change to gold, on it's own. Of course any scientist could set that up, contain it for 70 years. So why aren't scientists trying this? I know that if I believed it, I'g get a bunch of copper, and leave it to charity, to be opened in 70 years, and cashed in as gold. Why not?

He does not say, just leave it untouched. He is saying if it is protected in its mine, from solidifying.
His statement seems to suggest, that if copper in the mine is not solid, but remains in state of liquid copper for 70 years, then under certain conditions converts to gold. Perhaps, it means, if copper remains molten in its mine, and protected for 70 years. We do not know, exactly the conditions. Bahaullah is not revealing all details here.
But in many copper mines, some gold is also found together with copper.
Originally, when big bang happened, and the earth, was yet molten, different metals formed on earth after cooling. It requires much knowledge of geology, which I do not have.

 

[Vinayaka]

He does not say, just leave it untouched. He is saying if it is protected in its mine, from solidifying.
His statement seems to suggest, that if copper in the mine is not solid, but remains in state of liquid copper for 70 years, then under certain conditions converts to gold. Perhaps, it means, if copper remains molten in its mine, and protected for 70 years. We do not know, exactly the conditions. Bahaullah is not revealing all details here.
But in many copper mines, some gold is also found together with copper.
Originally, when big bang happened, and the earth, was yet molten, different metals formed on earth after cooling. It requires much knowledge of geology, which I do not have.

All copper in mines is solid. The melting point is 1085 degrees C, or quite hot, as metals go. Copper is within rock, or copper rich ore, it's never in a liquid metal state, other than in the earth's core. But you are free to think your prophet knew more about geology than today's well trained geologists, with PH Ds in the field.

Copper extraction - Wikipedia

 

[paarsurrey]

Just in the copper thing ... what he said was that if is left untouched, in a pure state it would change to gold, on it's own. Of course any scientist could set that up, contain it for 70 years. So why aren't scientists trying this? I know that if I believed it, I'g get a bunch of copper, and leave it to charity, to be opened in 70 years, and cashed in as gold. Why not?

The point is that Bahaullah took it from medieval alchemy. No one tried it to prove it to find it to be correct, not even Bahaullah himself did make such an experiment , yet he was so much enticed/allured to believe its correctness that this was true and used it as an analogy.
Right, please?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

It would be very simple to do, actually, as you wouldn't need a large amount. Isn't there a university in Brisbane you could write to to have them set this up, so the Baha'i would be proven right, once and for all?

A good suggestion indeed. UHJ of the Bahaism people should get it proven by the scientists. Right, please?

Regards

 

[Vinayaka]

The point is that Bahaullah took it from medieval alchemy. No one tried it to prove it to find it to be correct, not even Bahaullah himself did make such an experiment , yet he was so much enticed/allured to believe its correctness that this was true and used it as an analogy.
Right, please?

Regards

I have no idea.

 

[Looncall]

The quote to consider is; "...Were it to be protected in its own mine from becoming solidified..."

Thus you have to keep copper molten for 70 years. That would take some power, would it not?

It is said there is an elixer that can bypass this time process.

The future may know, we do not. I say given the state of the unity of humanity, thank God for that.

Regards Tony

Lots of ignorant things are said.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

All copper in mines is solid. The melting point is 1085 degrees C, or quite hot, as metals go. Copper is within rock, or copper rich ore, it's never in a metal state, other than in the eath's core. But you are free to think your prophet knew more about geology than today's well trained geologists, with PH Ds in the field.

Copper extraction - Wikipedia

He is not necessarily speaking about mining in our time, nor He necessarily is speaking of a condition which currently exist on earth. We cannot read more than what He says. He is not saying in the copper mining, copper is molten. You are free to keep thinking you have disproved Bahaullah. I am not claiming I have proof that or a detail explanation how that works.

 

[paarsurrey]

I don't think anybody tried
"Were it to be protected in its own mine from becoming solidified, it would, within the space of seventy years, attain to the state of gold."

Bahaullah wrote in the same Book, Alchemy is an absurd science. He also wrote in the same Book, philosopher's stone is nonexistent.
The Book of Iqan is indeed is a miracle. When it is read carefully, everytime a new thing is discovered in it. It has all the answers to the Religious teachings which people differ on them.

Sorry, the original book "Kitab-e-Iqan" or "Book of Certitude" neither in Persian/Farsi, as I understand, nor its translation in Arabic mention alchemy in the text:

١٢٢ کلمات غير نداشته و ندارم و ليکن چون جمعی از احوال ايشان سؤال نموده و مستفسر شده بودند لهذا لازم گشت که قدری در کتب او ملاحظه رود و جواب سائلين بعد از معرفت و بصيرت داده شود. باری، کتب عربيّه او بدست نيفتاد تا اينکه شخصی روزی ذکر نمود کتابی از ايشان که مسمّی به "ارشاد العوام" است در اين بلد يافت می شود. اگر چه از اين اسم رائحه کبر و غرور استشمام شد که مردم را عوام و خود را عالم فرض نموده و جميع مراتب او فی الحقيقه از همين اسم کتاب معلوم و مبرهن شد که در سبيل نفس و هوی سالکند و در تيه جهل و عمی ساکن، گويا حديث مشهور را فراموش نموده‌اند که می فرمايد: "اَلعِلمُ تَمامُ المَعلومِ وَالقُدرَةُ وَالعِزَّةُ تَمامُ الخَلقِ." با وجود اين کتاب را طلب نموده، چند روز معدود نزد بنده بود و گويا دو مرتبه در او ملاحظه شد. از قضا مرتبه ثانی جائی بدست آمد که حکايت معراج سيّد لولاک بود. ملاحظه شد که قريب بيست علم اَو ازيد، شرط معرفت معراج نوشته‏اند و همچو مستفاد شد که اگر نفسی اين علوم را درست ادراک ننموده باشد به معرفت اين امر عالی متعالی فائز نگردد. و از جمله علوم، علم فلسفه و علم کيميا و علم سيميا را مذکور نموده و ادراک اين علوم فانيه مردوده را شرط ادراک علوم باقيه قدسيّه شمرده.
مرجع كتب وآثار بهائی - کتاب ايقان٬ صفحه ۱۲۰-۱۳۵

It mentions of Science of Chemistry that has been perhaps wrongly translated as alchemy in the English translation rendered by Shoghí Effendí.
The original work of Bahaullah "Kitab-i-Iqan" , I am told, is in Farsi/Persian. UHJ should look into it and make the necessary correction, please.
The Arabic translation is more close to the original Farsi/Persian as the translator has kept Arabic words intact, Bahaullah was used to write them so often in his Farsi/Persian prose . Right, please?

Regards

 

[ManSinha]

The Quran is the recorded Word of God revealed by Muhammad, but he could.not write, thus it was written by others

@Tony Bristow-Stagg - would you explain complex tax laws to a child?
Then why would an all powerful omnipotent god give his wisdom to someone who cannot write?
Or even better - snap his fingers (if god has fingers and chooses to snap them) and make the recipient literate?

These are simple questions - to which the logical answer will not be your liking

 

[sealchan]

Alchemically? Really? (Uproarious sardonic laughter) Alchemy was debunked long, long ago. It was never anything but fraud and pathetic superstition.

If Bahai's are into alchemy, their system is discredited.

Alchemy was the foundation of chemistry as I have heard but chemistry certainly has outgrown it. I practice a form of alchemy when I play modded Minecraft. By reflecting how I play the game I intend to alter my psychological character. That is half of what alchemy has always been about, inner transformation. And it works!

 

[Vinayaka]

He is not necessarily speaking about mining in our time, nor He necessarily is speaking of a condition which currently exist on earth. We cannot read more than what He says. He is not saying in the copper mining, copper is molten. You are free to keep thinking you have disproved Bahaullah. I am not claiming I have proof that or a detail explanation how that works.

"That's not what he meant." is a somewhat overused response in history of religion, but sure, if you need to believe, it works for you. Just don't expect others to think it's any sort of logical argument.

 

[paarsurrey]

Thus I ask again for the 3rd time, to which you have not answered.

Is the Quran the Infallible Word from God?

Regards Tony

I quote from Kitab-i-Iqan or Book of Certitude of Bahaullah about Quran, please:

"behold what the Book which embraceth all things hath revealed"
"Consider how clearly and explicitly he hath been described in God’s incorruptible Book!"
"Ponder the blessed verse, so that the meaning of the words: “There is neither a thing green nor sere but it is noted in the unerring Book " Qur’án 6:59
Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 161-200
Regards

 

[Polymath257]

He does not say, just leave it untouched. He is saying if it is protected in its mine, from solidifying.
His statement seems to suggest, that if copper in the mine is not solid, but remains in state of liquid copper for 70 years, then under certain conditions converts to gold. Perhaps, it means, if copper remains molten in its mine, and protected for 70 years. We do not know, exactly the conditions. Bahaullah is not revealing all details here.
But in many copper mines, some gold is also found together with copper.
Originally, when big bang happened, and the earth, was yet molten, different metals formed on earth after cooling. It requires much knowledge of geology, which I do not have.

Being liquid for 70 years would not convert copper to gold. To do that, you would need a nuclear reaction, and that requires temperatures in the millions of degrees.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Sorry, the original book "Kitab-e-Iqan" or "Book of Certitude" neither in Persian/Farsi, as I understand, nor its translation in Arabic mention alchemy in the text:

١٢٢ کلمات غير نداشته و ندارم و ليکن چون جمعی از احوال ايشان سؤال نموده و مستفسر شده بودند لهذا لازم گشت که قدری در کتب او ملاحظه رود و جواب سائلين بعد از معرفت و بصيرت داده شود. باری، کتب عربيّه او بدست نيفتاد تا اينکه شخصی روزی ذکر نمود کتابی از ايشان که مسمّی به "ارشاد العوام" است در اين بلد يافت می شود. اگر چه از اين اسم رائحه کبر و غرور استشمام شد که مردم را عوام و خود را عالم فرض نموده و جميع مراتب او فی الحقيقه از همين اسم کتاب معلوم و مبرهن شد که در سبيل نفس و هوی سالکند و در تيه جهل و عمی ساکن، گويا حديث مشهور را فراموش نموده‌اند که می فرمايد: "اَلعِلمُ تَمامُ المَعلومِ وَالقُدرَةُ وَالعِزَّةُ تَمامُ الخَلقِ." با وجود اين کتاب را طلب نموده، چند روز معدود نزد بنده بود و گويا دو مرتبه در او ملاحظه شد. از قضا مرتبه ثانی جائی بدست آمد که حکايت معراج سيّد لولاک بود. ملاحظه شد که قريب بيست علم اَو ازيد، شرط معرفت معراج نوشته‏اند و همچو مستفاد شد که اگر نفسی اين علوم را درست ادراک ننموده باشد به معرفت اين امر عالی متعالی فائز نگردد. و از جمله علوم، علم فلسفه و علم کيميا و علم سيميا را مذکور نموده و ادراک اين علوم فانيه مردوده را شرط ادراک علوم باقيه قدسيّه شمرده.
مرجع كتب وآثار بهائی - کتاب ايقان٬ صفحه ۱۲۰-۱۳۵

It mentions of Science of Chemistry that has been perhaps wrongly translated as alchemy in the English translation rendered by Shoghí Effendí.
The original work of Bahaullah "Kitab-i-Iqan" , I am told, is in Farsi/Persian. UHJ should look into it and make the necessary correction, please.
The Arabic translation is more close to the original Farsi/Persian as the translator has kept Arabic words intact, Bahaullah was used to write them so often in his Farsi/Persian prose . Right, please?

Regards

I know Farsi, I can tell you, the word کيميا means Alchemy. For example کیمیاگر means, Alchemist.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

"That's not what he meant." is a somewhat overused response in history of religion, but sure, if you need to believe, it works for you. Just don't expect others to think it's any sort of logical argument.

Well, if you claim " that is what He meant", you need to prove it, and show how you know what He meant. The way, we can tell what He meant, is only if, He explained it somewhere, what He meant, or, if Abdulbaha, or Shoghi Effendi, told us what He meant. Any other explanation regarding what He meant, without a basis, is merely personal opinions, which ofcourse everyone is entitled to.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Being liquid for 70 years would not convert copper to gold. To do that, you would need a nuclear reaction, and that requires temperatures in the millions of degrees.

Maybe not. But if it is protected from solidifying in its mine, for 70 years, is subject to interpretations, and the condition of 'protecting it from solidifying in its mine", may require keeping it under a whole set of conditions (pressure, temperature, surroundings additives, etc..), which in not here mentioned in details, to make an educated decision if it will convert to gold or not.

Supposingly, it will not convert to gold literally. Still we cannot conclude Bahaullah is wrong, if He is not speaking literally, and His aim is to use this as an analogy. It might be that, people in His time, believed this is how gold is formed. In our view, God speaks in the level of understanding of people, and His aim in this case is not to teach Alchemy, but rather the concept of spiritual transformation. So, for its purpose, it is an excellent analogy.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

All copper in mines is solid. The melting point is 1085 degrees C, or quite hot, as metals go. Copper is within rock, or copper rich ore, it's never in a metal state, other than in the eath's core. But you are free to think your prophet knew more about geology than today's well trained geologists, with PH Ds in the field.

Copper extraction - Wikipedia

A good suggestion indeed. UHJ of the Bahaism people should get it proven by the scientists. Right, please?

Regards

The link helps thank you. I see copper in its own Mine is;

"...Most copper ores contain only a small percentage of copper metal bound up within valuable ore minerals, with the remainder of the ore being unwanted rock or gangueminerals, typically silicate minerals or oxide minerals for which there is often no value..."

Thus to keep all that moulten for 70 years?

As already said, I can not prove it to be true and I do not discount it is false.

I quote from Kitab-i-Iqan or Book of Certitude of Bahaullah about Quran, please:

"behold what the Book which embraceth all things hath revealed"
"Consider how clearly and explicitly he hath been described in God’s incorruptible Book!"
"Ponder the blessed verse, so that the meaning of the words: “There is neither a thing green nor sere but it is noted in the unerring Book " Qur’án 6:59
Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 161-200
Regards

Thus from an Infallable source, you gave your answer.

Well done.

It also answers this OP. All we do not understand is because of our limitations. God revealed only what we can currently know and what we can nit know bexomes our test of self.

This is Faith. Having certainty in the power of the Word of God, over our understanding of it. We should never let our differences become a barrier to finding God through God's given Messengers.

Regards Tony

 

[Glaurung]

Alchemy was debunked long, long ago. It was never anything but fraud and pathetic superstition.

That's a little simplistic. Alchemy was extremely rigorous and did make genuine contributions which would eventuate into modern chemistry. You don't spend centuries playing with chemicals and not learn a thing or two about them and how to handle said chemicals experimentally. Although alchemy was working off an incorrect paradigm, baseless superstition it was not. (When viewed within the context of its time). In fact the very idea of transmutation is indeed possible, although far beyond practical.

Here's a more sympathetic reading of Alchemy from Scientific American.
Fact or Fiction?: Lead Can Be Turned into Gold

 

[paarsurrey]

I know Farsi, I can tell you, the word کيميا means Alchemy. For example کیمیاگر means, Alchemist.

Agreed.

After subsequent research/reflections I have found that the cleric who wrote the book “Irshádu’l-‘Avám”might have involved in such wrongful pursuits like alchemy or sorcery or magic etc. All these things have nothing to do with Quran/Islam/Muhammad and are indeed not needed to understand the spiritual experience of “Mi‘ráj”.

I am pleased to know that one knows Farsi.

I am reading Iqan with an open mind and I will be asking questions wherever I need it. All Bahais and or non-Bahais are most welcome to answer them.

Regards

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Maybe not. But if it is protected from solidifying in its mine, for 70 years, is subject to interpretations, and the condition of 'protecting it from solidifying in its mine", may require keeping it under a whole set of conditions (pressure, temperature, surroundings additives, etc..), which in not here mentioned in details, to make an educated decision if it will convert to gold or not.

In a link posted above copper in its own mine is bound to many other minerals and thus needs to be separated.

The question I have been looking for, is does science know how Gold is formed?

Regards Tony