Is it wrong if you want to know a partners or potential partner's biological/original gender?

[MysticSang'ha]

Yeah that's what I was thinking Mystic .But rather the part about him (or some posters I guess) believing she was obligated to tell him therefore its her fault now he has these feelings.

And yes I agree he wasn't "violated" just because he 'felt" like he was I only wanted to speculate as to WHY he might feel that way.My best guess is due to ignorance he honestly believed that Shirley was a man that posed as a woman and he fell for it .

I didn't gloss over that word for one second.I know what its like actually BE violated myself and the feelings that come with it as a result.Again I was trying to "guess" why he would feel that way.

My guess is that Tom's a bigot and is transphobic.

 

[Poeticus]

Where's the arguments against that? Tom was violated? Please.

Nah, Tom wasn't violated. He's just being a cry-baby. He should have known better. This is why I don't approve of one night stands. I prefer love 1980s-Bollywood-style with a village lass. Muahahaha!

But, I get your point! Shirley shouldn't have been given the expectation that it was her duty to disclose her trans-gender status.

But, this brings up the point of how sexuality and the engaging in intercourse is viewed in the West as compared to in the East (and in this case: South Asia).

For example:

One night stands are looked down upon in Indian society and don't frequently happen, not even in the city. So, Tom and Shirley having that one night stand is kind of out of the question.

Trans-gender operations or sex changes are highly discouraged and so, no matter how much butch the female looks, it is 80% safe to say that the female is cis-female. So, Tom encountering a trans-female Shirley is like 15% chance of happening.

I know this is a little different, but I wanted to understand that the thought process and the analyzing that went on through out the thread regarding Tom and Shirley will not be a universal event; and the sentiments expressed herein are mostly those of Western thought process.

 

[MrOmega]

OP, John is an *** who deserves a good long scratch across the side of his car, all the way from the front headlight ending at the back bumper.

There are countless numbers of things one might be upset about, and that is between the individuals. Bank statements, birth certificates, and citizenship statuses are no prerequisite with relationships.

 

[Poeticus]

OP, John is an *** who deserves a good long scratch across the side of his car, all the way from the front headlight ending at the back bumper.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

 

[DallasApple]

My guess is that Tom's a bigot and is transphobic.

I shouldn't have said 'my guess" instead another possibility to being a bigot.The transphobic part I think would be more complicated when you are talking about actually having sex with a person.Example if I don't want to have sex with someone my same sex that wouldn't mean that I am a homophobe.It wouldn't mean that I view homosexuals as inferior to me or that heterosexuals are superior.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I agree with all that..except what did Tom do wrong to her?Refusing to "approach her" is not a violation against her rights .Contrary to being raped or beaten .

That he was angry and felt deceived and the action he took because of it was to what sounds like never speak to her again ...can not be compared to a man raping or beating a woman and blaming it on her.

Yes. I am surprised that Shadow Wolf used such a metaphor in order to compare the situation of Tom and Shirley. Tom didn't rape Shirley. He didn't beat her up after he was told that she is a trans-woman. Tom just ignored her from there on.

Shadow, why did you use rape as a metaphor to compare Tom's reaction to Shirley? Tom didn't blame it on women or anything like that. As far as we know, he may have ignored her because he was angry with himself for thinking she was a female and didn't realize earlier that she wasn't a cis-female.

I made the analogy for two reasons. One is because realistically many transwomen are harassed, raped, beaten, and killed over this very issue. It's comparable because we are expected to be held accountable for the actions and feelings of another. The OP does only mention rejection, but realistically it sometimes does not stop at just rejection, especially when others find out and ridicule him for it. And then when he retaliates, we are blamed for not completely exposing ourselves to someone who didn't take the time to ask (not specifically about being trans, but about the person in general).
I have no problems if Tom wants to end all ties to Shirley. But he will not get any sympathy from me since he took a gamble with a one-night stand and it didn't turn out to his liking.

No, SW brought it up because of the reaction in this thread that places responsibility onto Shirley if Tom is so distressed.

Listen, Tom felt "violated" by Shirley because he didn't know Shirley is a trans-female. I'm not that surprised that suddenly NOW people are arguing against a rape metaphor when from the beginning Tom's feeling "violated" was glossed over as either a non-issue, or even that he really was legitimately violated by Shirley.

Where's the arguments against that? Tom was violated? Please.

Try being attacked and left by the side of the road to die. Try being threatened with your life. Try being held hostage and tortured. But finding out one had sex with a transgendered person on a one night stand and calling that being violated?

Not. Even. Close.

I need to remember to spread some more frubals. If anything, Tom is an example of how men in our culture are generally not held accountable for their own actions. He chose to go home with someone he hardly knew, he consented to having sex with someone that could be anyone, be anything, and have anything, and yet somehow that is all Shirley's fault.

 

[Poeticus]

he took a gamble with a one-night stand and it didn't turn out to his liking.

I agree. I don't agree with one night stands either. But, horniness makes people do weird things.....


...........isn't that right Tom? You sack of wine!

 

[Breathe]

And why would that be a big deal? Rational fear is response to rational danger, irrational fear is in response to nonexistent danger, or is disproportionate to actual danger.

It's okay not to be attracted to the same sex- people often just aren't attracted to their own sex. But it's a different thing entirely to be attracted to someone, and then later feel violated due a perception of them being the same sex. Because at that point, it's no longer about physical attraction, attraction to personality, or anything like that, but rather it's about revulsion from a concept.

It's simple, really.

It may not be a big deal to you personally, but it is to some people.

You can't just call someone out as a transphobe based on this scenario. Regardless of how others feel, Tom sees Shirley as a biological guy. You may not. Others may not. I may not. But Tom does, and that's his choice. You can't impose your own sexual norms upon someone.

You're seeing it like this:

Tom has sex with Shirley. Tom enjoys it.
Tom then finds out Shirley used to be a man. Tom is not happy because he's a big transphobe meanie.

I'm seeing it like this:

Tom has sex with Shirley. Tom enjoys it.
Tom finds out Shirley used to be a man. Tom may not have had sex with Shirley if he knew she was born a man. Tom feels misled. Tom can't do anything about it. Tom feels Shirley deceived him by omission. Tom doesn't know what to do, so blamed Shirley because he should have at least been offered that chance.

If, in a time or place that where it's common for white people to be racist, would she be ethically in the wrong, if a woman with partially black ancestry did not volunteer and disclose her ancestral history prior to having casual sex with a white man, due to the possibility of him feeling violated or deceived?

A bizarre sequitur, and again, you're comparing apples to oranges.

 

[DallasApple]

I made the analogy for two reasons. One is because realistically many transwomen are harassed, raped, beaten, and killed over this very issue. It's comparable because we are expected to be held accountable for the actions and feelings of another. The OP does only mention rejection, but realistically it sometimes does not stop at just rejection, especially when others find out and ridicule him for it. And then when he retaliates, we are blamed for not completely exposing ourselves to someone who didn't take the time to ask (not specifically about being trans, but about the person in general).
I have no problems if Tom wants to end all ties to Shirley. But he will not get any sympathy from me since he took a gamble with a one-night stand and it didn't turn out to his liking.

Yeah I don't feel "sorry" for him being that YEAH...um don't jump in the sack with someone you just met an hour ago then act all shocked there are things about them that had you known you would have not slept with them.and blame it on them.But it goes both ways in this case Tom rejecting her because he found out..IF that bothers her hes not responsible for her feelings either because she also didn't bother to take the time to get to know him well enough to know that would be a deal breaker for him.

As to the rest of your post?About not ending there and retaliation ? Harrassed raped or beaten???Of course that's extreme hatred and should not be tolerated.Like a certain "kind" of misogyny .

 

[Poeticus]

Breathe,

That reminds me of dissimulation - aka: half truths. Shirley is a female, yes. But, she also used to be a male. And, that is what probably angered Tom.

 

[DallasApple]

I need to remember to spread some more frubals. If anything, Tom is an example of how men in our culture are generally not held accountable for their own actions. He chose to go home with someone he hardly knew, he consented to having sex with someone that could be anyone, be anything, and have anything, and yet somehow that is all Shirley's fault.

In 'general" or in general when it comes to relationships with women?

 

[Breathe]

Breathe,

That reminds me of dissimulation - aka: half truths. Shirley is a female, yes. But, she also used to be a male. And, that is what probably angered Tom.

That's what I mean; I expect there is a strong possibility Tom felt like he was being deceived by this piece of information being omitted.

Considering how many would react negatively if they found out later on, not mentioning it is a pretty... daft thing to do.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You're seeing it like this:

Tom has sex with Shirley. Tom enjoys it.
Tom then finds out Shirley used to be a man. Tom is not happy because he's a big transphobe meanie.

I'm seeing it like this:

Tom has sex with Shirley. Tom enjoys it.
Tom finds out Shirley used to be a man. Tom may not have had sex with Shirley if he knew she was born a man. Tom feels misled. Tom can't do anything about it. Tom feels Shirley deceived him by omission. Tom doesn't know what to do, so blamed Shirley because he should have at least been offered that chance.

Do you tell a potential one-night stand everything about your past? Or are more caught up in the here and now and you really don't think to mention your past except for what is relative to the conversation.
Let's assume for a moment that instead of Shirley being a transwoman she is HIV-positive, Tom has sex with her and contracts the virus. Do we say "Awww....you poor baby." or do we just let reality slap him in the face (which is going to eventually happen anyways) over his choice of taking a gamble and having sex with someone he barely knew.

A bizarre sequitur, and again, you're comparing apples to oranges.

No, it's actually very similar. She looks fully white, but actually has a black parent, he has sex with her, later finds out, and feels "deceived and violated" because she didn't tell him.

 

[Poeticus]

That's what I mean; I expect there is a strong possibility Tom felt like he was being deceived by this piece of information being omitted.

Considering how many would react negatively if they found out later on, not mentioning it is a pretty... daft thing to do.

While I don't agree with Tom's reaction (as in: he ignored her from there on), I agree that the omission of that other truth was a little mean.

But, it is safe for me to state that trans-women who have one night stand-sex with cis-males after meeting them at a bar are also voluntarily keeping their past-male self to themselves in order to make a list of how many men they slept with. And, if the cis-males found out, the trans-women would shame them. Stuff like that. Not all trans-women. But, a few of them. Sure.

We can't always paint the cis-males as bad. I am sure that trans-women have done stuff like that. Wouldn't you agree?

 

[Penumbra]

It's simple, really.

It may not be a big deal to you personally, but it is to some people.

You can't just call someone out as a transphobe based on this scenario. Regardless of how others feel, Tom sees Shirley as a biological guy. You may not. Others may not. I may not. But Tom does, and that's his choice. You can't impose your own sexual norms upon someone.

You're seeing it like this:

Tom has sex with Shirley. Tom enjoys it.
Tom then finds out Shirley used to be a man. Tom is not happy because he's a big transphobe meanie.

I'm seeing it like this:

Tom has sex with Shirley. Tom enjoys it.
Tom finds out Shirley used to be a man. Tom may not have had sex with Shirley if he knew she was born a man. Tom feels misled. Tom can't do anything about it. Tom feels Shirley deceived him by omission. Tom doesn't know what to do, so blamed Shirley because he should have at least been offered that chance.

A bizarre sequitur, and again, you're comparing apples to oranges.

It's not comparing apples to oranges. You realize everything you said can be re-stated for the racist example, right?

Here's the re-stated version, for race:

"It's simple, really.

It may not be a big deal to you personally, but it is to some people.

You can't just call someone out as a racist based on this scenario. Regardless of how others feel, Tom sees Shirley as a black woman. You may not. Others may not. I may not. But Tom does, and that's his choice. You can't impose your own cultural norms upon someone.

You're seeing it like this:

Tom has sex with Shirley. Tom enjoys it.
Tom then finds out Shirley has a black grandparent. Tom is not happy because he's a racist.

I'm seeing it like this:

Tom has sex with Shirley. Tom enjoys it.
Tom finds out Shirley has a black grandparent. Tom may not have had sex with Shirley if he knew she was part black. Tom feels misled. Tom can't do anything about it. Tom feels Shirley deceived him by omission. Tom doesn't know what to do, so blamed Shirley because he should have at least been offered that chance."

 

[Breathe]

Do you tell a potential one-night stand everything about your past? Or are more caught up in the here and now and you really don't think to mention your past except for what is relative to the conversation.

Call me crazy, but I'd expect you would tell them something THIS important.

Let's assume for a moment that instead of Shirley being a transwoman she is HIV-positive, Tom has sex with her and contracts the virus. Do we say "Awww....you poor baby." or do we just let reality slap him in the face (which is going to eventually happen anyways) over his choice of taking a gamble and having sex with someone he barely knew.

I'd hug the guy and tell him I'm sorry to hear that he caught the virus.
But then again, I have empathy.

No, it's actually very similar. She looks fully white, but actually has a black parent, he has sex with her, later finds out, and feels "deceived and violated" because she didn't tell him.

Sorry, but I don't feel there is a similarity. It looks like clutching at straws.
Race isn't the same as gender.

Whether one likes it or not, Shirley as a partially black individual was always that way. Shirley as a transgender used to be a biological male, and chromosomally, is still XY.

 

[Poeticus]

It's not comparing apples to oranges. You realize everything you said can be re-stated for the racist example, right?

Here's the re-stated version, for race:

What hurts a macho man's pride more? Having slept with someone different from his race? Or having slept with a female who used to be a male until an operation said otherwise?

 

[Breathe]

It's not comparing apples to oranges.

Nope.
Again, always that way; not the same for transgender.

And you aren't going to convince me otherwise on this.

 

[Poeticus]

How about this? Tom didn't ignore Shirley. They had another date and talked over about Shirley being a trans-woman. Tom and Shirley stayed friends but agreed upon not having intercourse again.

Tom told Shirley that he enjoyed having sex but told Shirley that he couldn't have sex with her anymore because Shirley was trans-woman.

Is Tom still transphobic? Why or why not?

 

[DallasApple]

I don't think its Shirley's "fault" .But I think it goes back to its a basic "assumption" that he would have never wondered if Shirley had NOT been born with female organs.For all I know I have slept with a trans man and have no idea..I however have never wondered that.(until I heard about Shirley and Tom LOL)Am I mistaken or is a full blown trans sexual (having had surgery and all) pretty rare?Especially compared to things like STD's and unwanted pregnancy..Things you might think about beforehand and take precautions or decide to risk it. An informed decision.

If I had a one night stand tonight????What I would consider I was taking a risk of not knowing? Would not be was this guy born a female biologically and at some point have a sex change operation...I would be thinking..what if this guy has a disease..I can insist on a condom(or not)..what if I get pregnant I can insist on condom with spermacide.(or not)I might wonder if hes married and even ask..I might even have fleeting thoughts of "what if hes a serial killer' but then remember how statistically the odds of that are so low I'm being silly but just in case I call a friend and tell them where I am and where I am going and what the guy looks like.But I would NEVER questioned if they were born biologically male or not.In my head or otherwise.