Is it wrong if you want to know a partners or potential partner's biological/original gender?

[dawny0826]

How about this? Tom didn't ignore Shirley. They had another date and talked over about Shirley being a trans-woman. Tom and Shirley stayed friends but agreed upon not having intercourse again.

Tom told Shirley that he enjoyed having sex but told Shirley that he couldn't have sex with her anymore because he Shirley was trans-woman.

Is Tom still transphobic? Why or why not?

Tom likely struggles with transphobia, if his reasons for now wanting to continue with in a sexual relationship with Shirley because she is a trans-woman.

A person can have such inner struggles and make good choices when interacting and engaging with other people. Honesty is a good call.

 

[Poeticus]

But I would NEVER questioned if they were born biologically male or not.In my head or otherwise.

That's a good point. It brings up the issue of what you need to ask before having sex. Or, if it is even okay to ask before having a one night stand? This goes for both males and females. Both engaged in a one night stand. And, in the case of the OP's Tom, the female had the better share of the bargain. I wonder how the case would have been if it wasn't a one night stand; and they were dating on and off and before having sex, Shirley told Tom that she was a trans-woman or Tom asked Shirley if she was a trans-woman.

 

[Poeticus]

Tom likely struggles with transphobia, if his reasons for now wanting to continue with in a sexual relationship with Shirley because she is a trans-woman.

But, he still remains friends with Shirley and they have a blast staying together as friends and go on trips and go shopping and go to the movies and hang out all time. Tom just doesn't want to have sex. How can he still be transphobic? Wouldn't he have to ignore her completely to be transphobic?

 

[DallasApple]

How about this? Tom didn't ignore Shirley. They had another date and talked over about Shirley being a trans-woman. Tom and Shirley stayed friends but agreed upon not having intercourse again.

Tom told Shirley that he enjoyed having sex but told Shirley that he couldn't have sex with her anymore because he Shirley was trans-woman.

Is Tom still transphobic? Why or why not?

I don't think so .Unless he harbored some sort of in general hatred towards transsexuals or viewed them as inferior to him.

What if I have a one night stand with a man that has had plastic surgeries and procedures and takes HGH and he appears to be around 40-to maybe 50 years old max.And we both enjoy the sex.The next day we have lunch and he tells me he is 75.And I decide (i'll use Alceste's word) its an "ick factor because hes older than my dad.I tell him I want to be friends but not have sex again.

Am I "agephobic"?..Do I hate him and all 75 year old men?Do I think he's "inferior " to me?

 

[Poeticus]

I don't think so .Unless he harbored some sort of in general hatred towards transsexuals or viewed them as inferior to him.

What if I have a one night stand with a man that has had plastic surgeries and procedures and takes HGH and he appears to be around 40-to maybe 50 years old max.And we both enjoy the sex.The next day we have lunch and he tells me he is 75.And I decide (i'll use Alceste's word) its an "ick factor because hes older than my dad.I tell him I want to be friends but not have sex again.

Am I "agephobic"?..Do I hate him and all 75 year old men?Do I think he's "inferior " to me?

That's a good analogy. I like that one. I also don't think that in that situation I described that Tom is transphobic. But, it makes sense for him to be transphobic if he ignores her and doesn't want to have anything to do with her.

 

[Penumbra]

Call me crazy, but I'd expect you would tell them something THIS important.

How is it important?

Sorry, but I don't feel there is a similarity. It looks like clutching at straws.
Race isn't the same as gender.

And sexism isn't the same as racism but it's the same underlying argument.

Whether one likes it or not, Shirley as a partially black individual was always that way. Shirley as a transgender used to be a biological male, and chromosomally, is still XY.

And yet Shirley's past apparently didn't affect Tom's perception of their night. So, he's having an issue with an invisible problem, a fear of a concept rather than a lack of attraction for an individual.

Nope.
Again, always that way; not the same for transgender.

And yet, that doesn't really have any bearing on their night of casual sex. It didn't affect his perception of her appearance, nor did it affect anything about her character up until the point of his being told about it.

For transgender people, the stacks of studies point to hormones being the critical variable for forming a gender identity in a fetus. So if we're being technical, she likely always had a female gender identity, and at some point began altering her body to become female as well.

Like I said, the reason history keeps repeating itself is that each generation convinces itself that its arguments are different. But in under a minute I re-wrote your statement to equally apply to race, without really changing any of the actual content, and you haven't really articulated why race and gender identity are separate issues in this case.

-It was not Shirley's appearance that Tom had an issue with.
-It was, as far as we can tell, not Shirley's personality that Tom had an issue with.
-Instead, Tom had an issue with invisible parts of her that do not affect him, and for casual sex. And rather than choosing not to simply have intercourse again, he felt deceived and violated by her, and considers her unethical, for not being the one to volunteer information about herself, to put a qualifier on her own womanhood for his fear of invisible information.

And you aren't going to convince me otherwise on this.

Oh, I rarely try to change anyone's opinion. Not worth it.

I debate for the audience.

 

[DallasApple]

, Shirley told Tom that she was a trans-woman or Tom asked Shirley if she was a trans-woman.

I wonder that TOO!!...If they didn't hop in the sack...gotten to know her and admire her BEYOND a sexual attraction..... ..and if he had found out by HER not a 3rd party..if it would have dulled the 'shocked " factor..because her other attractive qualities would have influenced his feelings.Her character..her intelligence her sense of humor ..her otherwise views...things they had in COMMON...

 

[Poeticus]

I wonder that TOO!!...If they didn't hop in the sack...gotten to know her and admire her BEYOND a sexual attraction..... ..and if he had found out by HER not a 3rd party..if it would have dulled the 'shocked " factor..because her other attractive qualities would have influenced his feelings.Her character..her intelligence her sense of humor ..her otherwise views...things they had in COMMON...

Yup. Who knows! They both might have even gotten it on! Hehe.

I think when Tom's friend called him and told him that Shirley was a girl, Tom felt something along the lines of "dude, you just slept with a man, you're an idiot" - and that must have hurt Tom's pride - especially having heard that from a male friend - making it much worse of an experience.

If Tom found out before hitting the bed that Shirley is trans-female from Shirley herself, Tom probably would have had sex with Shirley (assuming Shirley wanted to have sex with Tom).

 

[DallasApple]

That's a good analogy. I like that one. I also don't think that in that situation I described that Tom is transphobic. But, it makes sense for him to be transphobic if he ignores her and doesn't want to have anything to do with her.

I don't know..I still get tripped up on the fact he might THINK that he had sex with a man.Tricked so to speak by" his" appearance which was "artificially" created.. to have 'homosexual" sex with him .So he doesn't want to be around 'him' because he wants to forget it.

 

[DallasApple]

I think when Tom's friend called him and told him that Shirley was a girl, Tom felt something along the lines of "dude, you just slept with a man, you're an idiot" - and that must have hurt Tom's pride - especially having heard that from a male friend - making it much worse of an experience.

Agreed..he may have felt like he had been made a fool of..(or that he made a fool out of himself) ..and blamed Shirley.

People are mean.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Agreed..he may have felt like he had been made a fool of..(or that he made a fool out of himself) ..and blamed Shirley.

To which he is in the wrong. He's only feeding his own bigotry and society's bigotry by going down that path.

People are mean.

Yeah, they sure can be. :sad:

 

[Poeticus]

To which he is in the wrong. He's only feeding his own bigotry and society's bigotry by going down that path.

Like I have been saying all along, my dear Ladies: Tom's a sack of wine! :fight:

 

[dawny0826]

But, he still remains friends with Shirley and they have a blast staying together as friends and go on trips and go shopping and go to the movies and hang out all time. Tom just doesn't want to have sex. How can he still be transphobic? Wouldn't he have to ignore her completely to be transphobic?

I'm utilizing the term as I understand it, in this context.

Tom willingly had sex with Shirley and didn't take any issue with that encounter until he learned of her transition. So, yes, I do believe that there's underlying transphobia with Tom.

Tom may choose not to allow this to manifest in a negative way in his life. In example, he chose honesty. He told Shirley that he just wanted to be friends and he didn't cut her out of his life.

But, there is something amiss within Tom that doesn't allow him to engage in a sexual relationship with a woman who has transitioned. It's natural to have preference, but, a transitioned female is a woman. If she presents as a female physically and identifies as female - Tom harbors a prejudice against that type of woman. He's fortunate that she didn't tell him to go to hell.

Again, this may not have a negative impact on his friendships if he's the type of person who communicates honestly and fairly - but, that prejudice is still there.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Call me crazy, but I'd expect you would tell them something THIS important.

Too me though, it is not really that big of a deal. Pre-op, yeah I can see it being an issue, especially a major safety risk to not inform, but post-op I don't see the deal as the guy is putting his penis in a woman's vagina to have sex with her.

I'd hug the guy and tell him I'm sorry to hear that he caught the virus.
But then again, I have empathy.

It has nothing to do with empathy, but that he took a risk, didn't get to know the person, and now he has to live with the cold hard facts that sometimes alittle caution and patients goes along way.

Sorry, but I don't feel there is a similarity. It looks like clutching at straws.
Race isn't the same as gender.

They aren't, but they are the same in principle that the guy gets upset for something he believes should have been the woman's responsibility to disclose to him.

But, he still remains friends with Shirley and they have a blast staying together as friends and go on trips and go shopping and go to the movies and hang out all time. Tom just doesn't want to have sex. How can he still be transphobic? Wouldn't he have to ignore her completely to be transphobic?

I wouldn't see that as transphobic, compared to the cut off all ties and ignore her.

I don't think its Shirley's "fault" .But I think it goes back to its a basic "assumption" that he would have never wondered if Shirley had NOT been born with female organs.For all I know I have slept with a trans man and have no idea..I however have never wondered that.(until I heard about Shirley and Tom LOL)Am I mistaken or is a full blown trans sexual (having had surgery and all) pretty rare?Especially compared to things like STD's and unwanted pregnancy..Things you might think about beforehand and take precautions or decide to risk it. An informed decision.

You are correct. Due to a number of factors, including funding, the idea of regretting it (which does happen, but usually it is those who rushed through transitioning who regret it), it actually isn't that common for transsexuals to have genital surgery. They do have them, but more have not had any genital surgery than those who have. I have no official numbers or statistics, just what I have read at transsexual forums and have heard from transsexuals IRL.

 

[Poeticus]

I'm utilizing the term as I understand it, in this context.

Tom willingly had sex with Shirley and didn't take any issue with that encounter until he learned of her transition. So, yes, I do believe that there's underlying transphobia with Tom.

Tom may choose not to allow this to manifest in a negative way in his life. In example, he chose honesty. He told Shirley that he just wanted to be friends and he didn't cut her out of his life.

But, there is something amiss within Tom that doesn't allow him to engage in a sexual relationship with a woman who has transitioned. If she presents as a female physically and identifies as female - Tom harbors a prejudice against that type of woman. He's fortunate that she didn't tell him to go to hell.

Again, this may not have a negative impact on his friendships if he's the type of person who communicates honestly and fairly - but, that prejudice is still there.

I understand. But, wouldn't that make all men that prefer cis-females transphobic then? The only prejudice I see is that he doesn't want to engage in intercourse. But, in the universe I offered, Tom and Shirley were still great friends and I am sure Tom would help her out no matter the cost. They just wouldn't sleep together. The OP's Tom is a transphobe, surely.

EDIT: I get what you are saying, never mind. I had to re-read that underlined portion quite a few times. My b. Yeah, he harbors an unexplained prejudice and fear against females that are transitioned. So, yes, there is some transphobic attitude underlying it when it comes to him not wanting to have sex with the female. I see.

 

[DallasApple]

I understand. But, wouldn't that make all men that prefer cis-females transphobic then?

That's what is sounds like to me.And the other way around.And what about the trans gendered who have not had surgery? I guesse I'm a "bigot" because it would wig me out and i would opt not to have sex with a trans gendered male wearing a strap on .

Where does it end that you must be a hater ???

 

[DallasApple]

To which he is in the wrong. He's only feeding his own bigotry and society's bigotry by going down that path.



Yeah, they sure can be. :sad:

Sorry to use the dictionary... but serioulsy I was wondering if I don't know the definition of bigotry...Here is one..

: a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

I do not think what little info that was provided about Tom makes him a bigot.He may be..but calling him that based on what info was provided ?Does not qualify..

 

[Poeticus]

That's what is sounds like to me.And the other way around.And what about the trans gendered who have not had surgery? I guesse I'm a "bigot" because it would wig me out and i would opt not to have sex with a trans gendered male wearing a strap on

Woah, I never thought of it like that. Maybe the correct word would be preference, not transphobic. Phobia is non-sensical. Someone not wanting to have sex with someone can be based on preference which is sensical.

 

[DallasApple]

It reaches a point for me that you are a BIGOT basically a hater of whole groups if you do not want to have sex with them.

To be "non bigoted" you have to be emotionally and psychologically fine with having sex with anyone .If you have a problem with it you are a hater,evil and need psychiatric care to "fix" your problem why it matters who you have sex with.

 

[DallasApple]

Maybe the correct word would be preference, not transphobic.

Yeah..but apparently it seems having a preference makes one a bigot.