Is it wrong if you want to know a partners or potential partner's biological/original gender?

[McBell]

She like I, has the responsibility to disclose information that a reasonable person may expect to be relevant to the development of informed consent of a not insignificant number of people.

So again we are back to full disclosure.
Simply because unless he tells her what is relevant to his decision, she would need reveal it all....

Because it is a reasonable expectation of the goods and services offered by coffee shops - not one I have ever gone to has not provided free sugar, because they know that it is an expectation held by a significant number of those who drink coffee. Thus, since a large number of coffee shops provide this additive it is a reasonable expectation that you can have of coffee shops in general.

Seems to me your whole argument stems upon the highly subjective word "reasonable"....

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I am not sure if that works on chromosome level. The SRS doesn't really actually biologically change the gender, you do know that right?

You do know the difference between sex and gender, right?

The person he had sex with - Shirley - didn't have uterus or womb either, so technically he didn't have sex with a female. Now that is an unquestionable fact, and in my opinion, worth mentioning before entering to bedroom. Do I think that Shirley for all practical purposes was a female? Yes. On the most technical level? No. I personally have no problem with transsexuals, I could name quite a few I wouldn't mind getting wild with, if circumstances were right. And perhaps more importantly, quite a few transsexuals that i could begin a permanent relationship with.

So are women, who are XY and born women, who were also born without a uterus not female?

Thing is, you cannot force your values upon everyone. You have to take in consideration that not everyone wants to get that intimate with you, its a fact of life. On simpler level, you just cannot be friends with everyone, you can't force all the people to like you - it doesn't work that way.

I am well aware of that. However, this is about a one-night stand that didn't Tom ended up not liking after the fact. I am also well aware interracial relationships used to have pretty much the same attitude, but today it's becoming more and more common as fewer and fewer people care about it. Now had you had a relationship with someone outside of your race a few decades ago, chances were pretty good that other than you and your partner, not too many people were going to look upon it highly.

I might add, that Tom in the example was a very, very foolish man to rush things if he had such strict criteria. Indeed, the real problem here is not transgender and attitudes towards it, but rather the incredibly shallow one-night-stand dating culture where things are rushed and no one likes the results.

I agree with Tom was foolish, however I do not see one-night stands as shallow, it's just if you are going to have them you have to be ready for just about anything.

 

[Debater Slayer]

He could have done that. So?
She could have lied.

That's an entirely different story. She didn't lie in the particular scenario in the OP (as was being suggested by saying she deceptively "omitted" information), so she did nothing that deserves blame or condemnation.

In that post i meant it as: Being free from being called a bigot.

In other words, he has a right to not be viewed as a bigot? Nope. If someone thinks he is, then I think they have a right to call things as they see them. Passing prejudices off as mere "personal preferences" doesn't exempt them from criticism.

 

[Koldo]

That's an entirely different story. She didn't lie in the particular scenario in the OP (as was being suggested by saying she deceptively "omitted" information), so she did nothing that deserves blame or condemnation.

I am just pointing out that he couldn't make sure that she was a cisgender.
Asking isn't a completely safe method.

In other words, he has a right to not be viewed as a bigot? Nope. If someone thinks he is, then I think they have a right to call things as they see them. Passing prejudices off as mere "personal preferences" doesn't exempt them from criticism.

Not that he has a right to it.
By the way, I don't know about the laws of your country, but if you happened to call someone a 'bigot' around here because you see him as a bigot, you better make sure you don't do so publicly, else that is a crime. Tom is not an actual person, so it doesn't apply in this case obviously.

 

[McBell]

I am just pointing out that he couldn't make sure that she was a cisgender.
Asking isn't a completely safe method.

Nor is her saying she isn't...

By the way, I don't know about the laws of your country, but if you happened to call someone a 'bigot' around here because you see him as a bigot, you better make sure you don't do so publicly, else that is a crime. Tom is not an actual person, so it doesn't apply in this case obviously.

It does not matter if calling a bigot a bigot is considered a crime or not.
The bigot is still a bigot.

 

[Koldo]

Nor is her saying she isn't...

Correct.

It does not matter if calling a bigot a bigot is considered a crime or not.
The bigot is still a bigot.

You see it as bigot; It is a bigot.
Excellent reasoning.

 

[McBell]

You see it as bigot; It is a bigot.
Excellent reasoning.

Interesting the lengths you go to in order to deny/defend bigotry.

 

[DallasApple]

What if the reason is ..I personally prefer not to have sex with a woman who's vagina was made out of a penis.Rather than it being about an "imaginary penis" but her penis(and scrotum) has been made to look like and function as a vagina/clitoris and labia and that is a mental turn off.There is no ignorance involved its fully understood.

I think the idea of something being sexually unappealing mentally is quite different than being an intolerant bigot .I suppose I could see how that could be categorized as a phobia.But if the only result of that phobia is the person refrains from having sex with a trans female which they are not obligated to do in the first place (have sex with anyone) why they would be considered a completely irrational /bigoted individual who doesn't even consider a trans female to even be a person at all.When the only thing they want in regards to that phobia if you want to call it that is to not have sex with a trans female.

Having said all that..back to Tom and Shirley in that situation ..I don't think Shirley is supposed to "assume" that Tom might feel as described above(or any other reason he would not want to have sex with her because she is trans) and inform him to protect his mental health.Even IF it was shown through polling that a significant portion of cis males have that sexual aversion .She has just as much merit to assume that he has no aversion .Because certainly not all men do.

 

[Koldo]

Having said all that..back to Tom and Shirley in that situation ..I don't think Shirley is supposed to "assume" that Tom might feel as described above(or any other reason he would not want to have sex with her because she is trans) and inform him to protect his mental health.Even IF it was shown through polling that a significant portion of cis males have that sexual aversion .She has just as much merit to assume that he has no aversion .Because certainly not all men do.

The next time you buy a car make sure it comes with all the parts inside.
The seller has no reason to assume you want one with all of them, because not all people do.

 

[McBell]

I don't think Shirley is supposed to "assume" that Tom might feel as described above(or any other reason he would not want to have sex with her because she is trans) and inform him to protect his mental health.Even IF it was shown through polling that a significant portion of cis males have that sexual aversion .She has just as much merit to assume that he has no aversion .Because certainly not all men do.

I cannot help but wonder how much transference is going on in this thread.

 

[DallasApple]

The next time you buy a car make sure it comes with all the parts inside.
The seller has no reason to assume you want one with all of them, because not all people do.

The next time I buy a car I'll do my research first and not run out one day and buy one on a whim then be upset that its not the model I really wanted.

 

[McBell]

The next time you buy a car make sure it comes with all the parts inside.
The seller has no reason to assume you want one with all of them, because not all people do.

I do.
in fact, i make sure said vehicle has everything I expect it to have and if I am not sure or even the slightest bit concerned, i flat out ask...


Though to be honest, I am not sure I understand your reasoning for the above quoted post.
Do you think it somehow helps your argument?
If so, how?

 

[Koldo]

The next time I buy a car I'll do my research first and not run out one day and buy one on a whim then be upset that its not the model I really wanted.

Also make sure your research is as accurate as possible. :yes:

 

[Koldo]

I do.
in fact, i make sure said vehicle has everything I expect it to have and if I am not sure or even the slightest bit concerned, i flat out ask...


Though to be honest, I am not sure I understand your reasoning for the above quoted post.
Do you think it somehow helps your argument?
If so, how?

That was just an analogy. That's all.
If you could comprehend it, it helped.
If not, it didn't.

 

[DallasApple]

Also make sure your research is as accurate as possible. :yes:

If my concern is not regretting my purchase of course I would.And if its a used car I would go so far as to pay a mechanic to run some test on it to make sure its not a lemon .And do a search to make sure (as best of my ability) that its never been reported in an accident etc etc...

 

[McBell]

That was just an analogy. That's all.
If you could comprehend it, it helped.
If not, it didn't.

I understand it was an analogy.
However, it does not help your "argument".

In fact, it merely shows that what I have been saying applies to things outside one night stands.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Shirley's a messed-up head case who obviously likes drama, turmoil, and goes through life making one bad choice after another. Tom is an angry, insecure individual with sociopathic tendencies, who is confused about his sexuality.

Ethical considerations are the least of the issues regarding these two gems of humanity.

 

[Koldo]

I understand it was an analogy.
However, it does not help your "argument".

In fact, it merely shows that what I have been saying applies to things outside one night stands.

If you buy a car, and it comes without an engine, would you seek legally ( if needed ) for a solution? Or would you just let it be?

 

[McBell]

If you buy a car, and it comes without an engine, would you seek legally ( if needed ) for a solution? Or would you just let it be?

unless the seller of car says that it has an engine and it does not, then perhaps I would.
However, since the OP mentions nothing but about his asking her and her telling him what he wanted to hear, your above quoted post is rather irrelevant, isn't it?

If I purchase a vehicle on a whim and then start throwing a fit because it is not what I expected to be, then it is MY fault for not making sure it was what I expect.

Again, you are not helping your argument.

 

[DallasApple]

If you buy a car, and it comes without an engine, would you seek legally ( if needed ) for a solution? Or would you just let it be?

If you buy a car without an engine you never would have even been able to drive it.Tom was able to drive Shirley from point A to be B(his destination ) then park her and go home.Tom is not now stuck with with Shirley in his bed after a major investment .