• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Is it wrong if you want to know a partners or potential partner's biological/original gender?

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
I argued at the beginning as well(or in the middle LOL)..the possibility Shirley never gave it a thought he would care one way or the other.She was just enjoying his company period.Maybe she is (well the OP never said if she knew Tom found out and got upset) surprised it bothered him at all let alone that much.
 

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
Yeah I get it Tom freaked out ..had a temper tantrum and blamed Shirley for his feelings.

And...?

But I'm not hallucinating ..its been suggested that ANY cis male who specifically prefers to only have sex with cis females..IOW would not have sex with a trans female ...has to be an ignorant trans phobic bigot .Like there is no rational reason for him to not want to have sex with a trans female.

Again, completely omitting an entire demographic regardless of post-op status or not is NOT a preference. It's a phobia to want to avoid an entire population on intimate grounds (and I'm not talking about orientation here, but gender).

Lyn repeatedly brought the similar analogy of race into the discussion. A white person who would always refuse to have sex with a black person, regardless of whether or not the ethnicity is even apparent on the night of the sexual encounter, is acting from a phobia. Not a preference.

The line of reasoning that race is different than gender identity because the trans person chooses to transition or identify as a specific gender is a line of reasoning that is not based on the research, and such is one from ignorance.
 

Flankerl

Well-Known Member
Evil? I said transphobic and cis-normative. I would like to see a more welcoming society to transgendered and intersexed individuals.

Tom had sex with a transgender person. We arent told what kind of sex, for all we know he could've just banged "Shirley" from behind into the butt, so he never saw how Shirley looked down there from the front.
But then again they could have had fully naked sex from all kinds of positions and he simply was too stupid to realise "it".(and yeah i know how state of the art artificial vaginas look like, you can distinguish them from real ones)

What do you even mean by a more welcoming society to transgendered and intersexed people? Because thats a slogan straight out from a political party. As obscure as possible.



LOL I don't know how many times I can say this, but I'll say it again:

Tom's overreaction, and his idea that he was misled, lied to, deceived, by Shirley...when he thoroughly enjoyed himself with a woman on a one night stand....is based on ignorance and phobia. He suddenly wondered if he slept with a man (untrue), and he also placed a responsibility on Shirley for his own choices based on an imaginary penis.

I don't find the motivation to show compassion and inclusion of transgendered people into everyday society to be a mark of stupidity. Such a shame that it's thought of that way, though.

Okay again.
You think Shirley is a woman. Thats your opinion. It has nothing to do with science or even simple biology. Yes some scientists agree with it, but then again there are a scientists who disagree with it. Thats just how science works. Iam always amazed how people who dont work within a scientific field fail to grasp the most basic points of it.

And an imaginary penis? How do you even know that? We arent given any information on what kind of body parts "Shirley" posesses. You have this incredible ability to read half a book into the information we received in the first post.
For all we know "Shirley" has a penis and Tom was too drunk to realise it. See what i did?


I also find it incredibly cis-phobic(what goes around comes around) to shift all the blame for the casual sex encounter and the reactions resulting from it to Tom.
Its like he put his Penis into another human being. Therefore the person which received the Penis into his/her body has no further obligations in the whole matter.
Because we all know Transgender people have been widely accepted by society for hundreds of years so the Transgender Person which received the Penis obviously thought that it was the most natural event ever.




Yeah I get it Tom freaked out ..had a temper tantrum and blamed Shirley for his feelings.

No not at all. Thats not what the story says in any way.

I cant be the only capable of understanding the story. It isnt even mentioned if they ever met again after their encounter.
 

InformedIgnorance

Do you 'know' or believe?
I have argued that if it is that important to Tom that he does not have sex with a transgendered person, he should take measures to ensure that he does not. It is unreasonable to expect Shirley to take responsibility for Tom's reaction when he was told by friends of Shirley's transgendered status. He had no idea leading up to, during, or after the act.
I never said she is responsible for his reaction - for example if he became violent. She is however indeed responsible for limiting his capacity to give informed consent and it was reasonable for her to expect that a potential partner might find her status as being of import to their decision, likewise it is reasonable for her to realise that he had little reason to suspect her status given the care she has taken to conceal it.

His overreaction is an indicator of a phobia. The expectation that Shirley takes responsibility for his phobia is why I submit his position is also rooted in bigotry. If Shirley overreacted to something similar, I'd be putting her on the spot, too.

This goes far beyond preference based on the OP, in my opinion.
'Over' reaction is the heart of this, exactly what part of his reaction do you consider the 'over' part?

He was deceived in no small part by his own perceptions, but also significantly due to the great efforts she has taken in order to reinvent herself, to disguise what she had once been and to become something else. However, this aspect was of importance to him and apparently a significant sexual preference. Thus by going to great efforts to conceal this, she has directly acted to impede his ability to establish informed consent. This perceived injury is then exacerbated by the reasonable expectation that he had that she was a cis-female (given the low proportion of transgendered individuals) and her withholding contrary information despite the reasonable recognition that the information was important (given the not insignificant portion of people who hold such views). Thus it is therefore reasonable for him to feel her actions are immoral or to feel anger that he was not given the opportunity to make an informed decision.

We are not told the reasons why he refuses to approach her, it could be out of anger, it could be confusion or disgust, we just do not know. You seem to have assumed the later.


I do however notice you missed my question about Bob, who likes transgendered women. Let's say Bob meets Shirely, he is impressed by her personality and appearance but he wants nothing to do with her - until he finds out she used to be male. Is Bob's preference for transgendered partners as bigoted as Tom's for cis-females?


Then how is it her responsibility?
She like I, has the responsibility to disclose information that a reasonable person may expect to be relevant to the development of informed consent of a not insignificant number of people.

If it is so important to you, why did not ask about sugar to begin with?
Because it is a reasonable expectation of the goods and services offered by coffee shops - not one I have ever gone to has not provided free sugar, because they know that it is an expectation held by a significant number of those who drink coffee. Thus, since a large number of coffee shops provide this additive it is a reasonable expectation that you can have of coffee shops in general.




edit:
what a fast moving topic! lol good night people!
 
Last edited:

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
And that turned into any man is a phobic bigot who chooses not to have sex with a trans female .Not just Tom finding out afterwards and getting angry about it.

It turned into a division between whether Tom is justified in his anger or he isn't. My argument has been that Tom overreacted, and the argument I've heard from his supporters are that Tom is justified because it's normal for men to not want to have sex with another he/she/it/thing-used-to-have-a-penis-OMG.

You have argued (from my understanding) that it doesn't matter what the research shows, what Shirley identifies as, nor even how she presented herself as a fully assigned, transitioned, and aesthetically female person, that Tom's reaction is totally justified.

I have been specific with my arguments about Tom's overreaction, and with a cis-normative society that assumes very certain things about sexuality and gender identity. I have called perspectives with critiques such as "ignorant", "bigoted", and "phobic." I have done my best in an emotional topic such as this to refrain from calling PEOPLE bigots, or evil, or horrible.

So, no I disagree, Dallas. I aim to educate and inform and call out bigotry and discrimination when I see it.
 

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
Tom had sex with a transgender person. We arent told what kind of sex, for all we know he could've just banged "Shirley" from behind into the butt, so he never saw how Shirley looked down there from the front.

It could have been any sexual position. But they had a one night stand. Tom enjoyed himself. And Shirley enjoyed herself.

But then again they could have had fully naked sex from all kinds of positions and he simply was too stupid to realise "it".(and yeah i know how state of the art artificial vaginas look like, you can distinguish them from real ones)

This is not Shirley's responsibility.

What do you even mean by a more welcoming society to transgendered and intersexed people? Because thats a slogan straight out from a political party. As obscure as possible.

I mean that transgendered and intersexed people ought to be able to live their lives as freely as cisgendered people.

Okay again.
You think Shirley is a woman. Thats your opinion. It has nothing to do with science or even simple biology. Yes some scientists agree with it, but then again there are a scientists who disagree with it. Thats just how science works. Iam always amazed how people who dont work within a scientific field fail to grasp the most basic points of it.

What sources would claim that Shirley is not female?

And an imaginary penis? How do you even know that? We arent given any information on what kind of body parts "Shirley" posesses. You have this incredible ability to read half a book into the information we received in the first post.

It's been the story everybody has been using so far. Myself included. If you'd like to inject more information to make this a more nuanced debate, be my guest.

For all we know "Shirley" has a penis and Tom was too drunk to realise it. See what i did?

Oh goodie! You get a cookie! :cookie:

I also find it incredibly cis-phobic(what goes around comes around) to shift all the blame for the casual sex encounter and the reactions resulting from it to Tom.

I would define cisphobia to be where a persons perception of cisgendered people that they are not truly people, and very likely are undesirable. Let's be consistent now.

Tom's responsible for his reaction and for his boundaries. I have stated repeatedly that if Tom is so hell bent on never having sex with a transgendered person, it's up to him to make sure he doesn't. It's not Shirley's responsibility. She's got her own stuff she has to worry about.

Its like he put his Penis into another human being. Therefore the person which received the Penis into his/her body has no further obligations in the whole matter.

Sorry, I don't define sexual encounters based entirely on what a penis is doing or not doing. Shirley's only responsible for her own boundaries and to communicate her boundaries to Tom. She is not responsible for what goes on in Tom's head or what he does with his body.

Because we all know Transgender people have been widely accepted by society for hundreds of years so the Transgender Person which received the Penis obviously thought that it was the most natural event ever.

There are societies that fully accept (and some give special honor) to transgendered people. It's a shame that this society freely discriminates legally and culturally to this degree.
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
Tom had sex with a transgender person. We arent told what kind of sex, for all we know he could've just banged "Shirley" from behind into the butt, so he never saw how Shirley looked down there from the front.

I think the understanding was she had all female sex organs.
 

FranklinMichaelV.3

Well-Known Member
I think it's a complicated issue because on a one night stand type of vibe --You get what you look for. I know that people have had one night stands woken up next to someone who they found "Ugly" and just hung their head in "shame."

If Tom was seeking a relationship (dating and the like), I think it is important to divulge that information.

If this was going to be a friends-with-benefits situation, again I agree that this should have been disclosed.

But this was a one-night-stand. Alcohol also seems to have been involved. People have gotten pregnant over that kinda ish.
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
You think Shirley is a woman. Thats your opinion. It has nothing to do with science or even simple biology. Yes some scientists agree with it, but then again there are a scientists who disagree with it. Thats just how science works. Iam always amazed how people who dont work within a scientific field fail to grasp the most basic points of it.

O.K so now there are scientist who disagree that Shirley is a female ?

Sounds like this thread.
 

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
I never said she is responsible for his reaction - for example if he became violent. She is however indeed responsible for limiting his capacity to give informed consent and it was reasonable for her to expect that a potential partner might find her status as being of import to their decision, likewise it is reasonable for her to realise that he had little reason to suspect her status given the care she has taken to conceal it.

IMO, she gave the necessary information. She is a woman. She presented and transitioned as a woman into the gender identity she was born with.

'Over' reaction is the heart of this, exactly what part of his reaction do you consider the 'over' part?

That he was angry and felt misled and lied to. I think that's an overreaction on his part. That he is projecting his phobias onto her and sees her as responsible for his anger.

He was deceived in no small part by his own perceptions, but also significantly due to the great efforts she has taken in order to reinvent herself, to disguise what she had once been and to become something else. However, this aspect was of importance to him and apparently a significant sexual preference. Thus by going to great efforts to conceal this, she has directly acted to impede his ability to establish informed consent. This perceived injury is then exacerbated by the reasonable expectation that he had that she was a cis-female (given the low proportion of transgendered individuals) and her withholding contrary information despite the reasonable recognition that the information was important (given the not insignificant portion of people who hold such views). Thus it is therefore reasonable for him to feel her actions are immoral or to feel anger that he was not given the opportunity to make an informed decision.

Such is a typical view of a cis-normative society and way of thinking.

We are not told the reasons why he refuses to approach her, it could be out of anger, it could be confusion or disgust, we just do not know. You seem to have assumed the later.

I'm not the only one. I'm following and contributing to the conversation just like everybody else. Want to inject more nuances into the debate? Be my guest.

I do however notice you missed my question about Bob, who likes transgendered women. Let's say Bob meets Shirely, he is impressed by her personality and appearance but he wants nothing to do with her - until he finds out she used to be male. Is Bob's preference for transgendered partners as bigoted as Tom's for cis-females?

Preference? Or complete omission? I see complete omission to be indicative of something other than simple preference.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
How about not blaming Shirley for not mentioning an insignificant detail? :shrug:

No, i mean:
What do you suggest as a mean to provide evidence that a significant number of males wouldn't want to have sex with trans women? Or maybe to prove the opposite?

What explanation do you have for Tom's rejection of Shirley merely on the grounds that she's transgendered, then?

He doesn't want to have sex with trans women.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
No, i mean:
What do you suggest as a mean to provide evidence that a significant number of males wouldn't want to have sex with trans women? Or maybe to prove the opposite?

Short of studies conducted by people who are actually able to survey more than a few people online, I'm not sure. Nor do I think this has much to do with the point that it's not Shirley's responsibility to reveal an insignificant detail every time she has a one-night stand with somebody who didn't ask her whether or not she's a transgender (which is another reason not to assume he cares about that as awfully as his reaction later seems to indicate).

He doesn't want to have sex with trans women.

I know; I asked why that is so. Reasons like "he feels he had sex with a man" even though he didn't notice it seem to suggest irrational discrimination rather than a reasonable reservation.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Short of studies conducted by people who are actually able to survey more than a few people online, I'm not sure. Nor do I think this has much to do with the point that it's not Shirley's responsibility to reveal an insignificant detail every time she has a one-night stand with somebody who didn't ask her whether or not she's a transgender (which is another reason not to assume he cares about that as awfully as his reaction later seems to indicate).

So, even if I supplied this evidence you would not consider it to be relevant...

The point is that it would be significant to many men.
Not whether it is significant to you. It is not relevant whether it is significant to you specifically.


I know; I asked why that is so. Reasons like "he feels he had sex with a man" even though he didn't notice it seem to suggest irrational discrimination rather than a reasonable reservation.

There doesn't have to be a reason for that. It doesn't matter.

If you don't want to have sex with women that have blue eyes, you should be free to do so. No matter the reason. You shouldn't be called a bigot for that.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
So, even if I supplied this evidence you would not consider it to be relevant...

The point is that it would be significant to many men.
Not whether it is significant to you. It is not relevant whether it is significant to you specifically.

If it's so significant to him, then he should have probably asked her beforehand. He ran that risk the moment he decided to have a one-night stand without any details being given in advance.

There doesn't have to be a reason for that. It doesn't matter.

If you don't want to have sex with women that have blue eyes, you should be free to do so. No matter the reason. You shouldn't be called a bigot for that.

I beg to differ. There's a difference between being free to do something and whether or not that thing is bigoted or based on ignorance. I'm not arguing that Tom doesn't have the right to choose his partners based on whatever arbitrary preferences he may have, but that doesn't mean I don't think those preferences imply bigotry.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
If it's so significant to him, then he should have probably asked her beforehand. He ran that risk the moment he decided to have a one-night stand without any details being given in advance

He could have done that. So?
She could have lied.


I beg to differ. There's a difference between being free to do something and whether or not that thing is bigoted or based on ignorance. I'm not arguing that Tom doesn't have the right to choose his partners based on whatever arbitrary preferences he may have, but that doesn't mean I don't think those preferences imply bigotry.

In that post i meant it as: Being free from being called a bigot.
 
Top