Is it wrong if you want to know a partners or potential partner's biological/original gender?

[MysticSang'ha]

Yes how dare those evil cis' dont want to have sex with transpeople.

Being allowed to have your own sexual preference? Haha no the 21st century is coming to a place near you!

Seems to me that the expectation is that Shirley shouldn't have her own sexual preferences, and that she should act according to Tom's "preferences."

Wow, Lyn was right earlier. It's such a shame that society would prefer to operate in such a way that transgendered and intersexed people don't exist.

 

[Koldo]

I said Tom's reaction is based in ignorance and phobia. And I also stand by my argument that anybody who completely omits the idea of ever having sex with a transgendered person is not acting out of preference. I find the complete omission and reaction to imaginary genitalia to be based on ignorance and phobia.

You most certainly said that many times already...
Not sure whether you really expect me to agree with it, or something...

I have repeatedly stated it over and over again. I think some folks just don't want to look like they're mean people when they try to tell a transgendered person nobody would find them desirable.

I have yet to read any. But, i just might have skipped it. Then please do present it again, or point me to it.

EDIT: By the way, what the heck? When did i say nobody would find transgendered people desirable?

 

[InformedIgnorance]

How is she to know what you do and do not find relevant to the decision of having a one night stand with someone unless you tell her?

It would be unreasonable for me to expect her to know what criteria I personally find relevant.
It is however reasonable for me to expect her to know what criteria are important to a not insignificant numbers of people.

Simple demographics - its like when someone asks you if you would like some free sugar with your coffee, I do not expect that they know whether or not I want sugar, but I would expect them to recognise that to a large number of coffee drinkers, sugar is a desirable additive - and thus offering sugar or ensuring that it is in an easily visible and accessible location (such as next to napkins etc) is something that is a reasonable expectation of coffee shops.

In the sex example, I assume we can all agree factors such as STDs are such a criteria, many would argue their marital status is also something that is important to a large number of people, personally I think there are enough people who feel transgender status to be such a criteria that simply due to prevalence it is reasonable to expect that it is important to a large number of people - that does not necessarily mean it is justifiable or pleasant etc, but it is a reasonable expectation to recognize that there are people who think that it is a relevant criteria.

 

[DallasApple]

And such an idea is in error when compared to what research has shown.

I made the comment in response to Informedignorance's comment that "technically" they are not females.This is where I think (in general) people might get stumped.

 

[Koldo]

So your argument is that it should have been apparent to her as a reasonable person ....

Assume much?

Should we assume she is an unreasonable person?
That's also acceptable.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

I made the comment in response to Informedignorance's comment that "technically" they are not females.This is where I think (in general) people might get stumped.

Actually that was Leftimies

I call her a female because that is what she wants to be called presumably.

Seems to me that the expectation is that Shirley shouldn't have her own sexual preferences, and that she should act according to Tom's "preferences."

Wow, Lyn was right earlier. It's such a shame that society would prefer to operate in such a way that transgendered and intersexed people don't exist.

Why shouldnt she have her own preferences? Maybe she likes short guys or fat old men or amputees or who knows. However I find it quite amusing that you think shirley can have her own preferences yet are so keen to limit tom's to those areas that you find amenable; oh and I assume you find it equally inappropriate that Bob has a preference FOR women who used to be men, can't get enough of them - he is probably some sort of bigot too.

 

[DallasApple]

Actually that was Leftimies

I call her a female because that is what she wants to be called presumably.

OOOPS sorry my bad.:sorry1:

 

[DallasApple]

Yeah I haven't seen anyone suggest that nobody would find a trans person desirable.And I mean AFTER they know.Are there no trans females in romantic relationships that there partner is aware they are trans?

 

[Flankerl]

Seems to me that the expectation is that Shirley shouldn't have her own sexual preferences, and that she should act according to Tom's "preferences."

Wow, Lyn was right earlier. It's such a shame that society would prefer to operate in such a way that transgendered and intersexed people don't exist.

Oh no he/she has every right for his/her own sexual preferences.

Doesnt mean that Tom has to oblige to it.


On one hand you are going on about how evil society is but then dont realise how society is.

If you see a random person that looks like a female human being you dont assume: "well obviously this person is a former guy, thats exactly my type"
The chance for Tom to meet such a person vary from place to place but if this didnt took place in a big city or Commiefornia(or Transland uh Thailand) then its simply an exception to the rule.
You arent afraid to leave your home just because there is a slim mathematical possibility that a train might derail and splatter you across that specific spot on that specific street right next to the railway.

People in this thread attacking Tom act like 25 to 50% of all people are transgender and that Tom should have obviously anticipated such an event.



But thats stupid.

 

[McBell]

It would be unreasonable for me to expect her to know what criteria I personally find relevant.
It is however reasonable for me to expect her to know what criteria are important to a not insignificant numbers of people.

How is she to know which group you are in unless you tell her?

Simple demographics - its like when someone asks you if you would like some free sugar with your coffee, I do not expect that they know whether or not I want sugar, but I would expect them to recognise that to a large number of coffee drinkers, sugar is a desirable additive - and thus offering sugar or ensuring that it is in an easily visible and accessible location (such as next to napkins etc) is something that is a reasonable expectation of coffee shops.

And so it completely justified to be offended that you were not offered the free sugar?
I fail to see how this analogy compares.

In the sex example, I assume we can all agree factors such as STDs are such a criteria, many would argue their marital status is also something that is important to a large number of people, personally I think there are enough people who feel transgender status to be such a criteria that simply due to prevalence it is reasonable to expect that it is important to a large number of people - that does not necessarily mean it is justifiable or pleasant etc, but it is a reasonable expectation to recognize that there are people who think that it is a relevant criteria.

Right back to square one:

How is the other party to know what is and what is not a determining factor if you do not tell them?
​

 

[McBell]

Should we assume she is an unreasonable person?
That's also acceptable.

Yet her assumption that it would not bother him is not acceptable?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

You most certainly said that many times already...
Not sure whether you really expect me to agree with it, or something...



I have yet to read any. But, i just might have skipped it. Then please do present it again, or point me to it.

EDIT: By the way, what the heck? When did i say nobody would find transgendered people desirable?

Explain to me the reasoning, then, of the assertion that Shirley should assume a large percentage of men do not wish to have sex with a transgendered female. It's essentially the exact same reasoning.

 

[DallasApple]

I think ,well I know..we have two separate conversations going on .Tom and Shirley's specific situation,a one night stand and whether she should have assumed it might be relevant to him.And is a cis male (in general ) an irrational bigot if he chooses not to have sex with a trans female if he is aware of that.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

How is she to know which group you are in unless you tell her?

I dont expect her to KNOW - I expect her to either find out or simply cover her bases, just as could be expected of me to ensure that I disclose those things that might be relevant to her given reasonable assumptions about the criteria that significant numbers of women might find relevant.

And so it completely justified to be offended that you were not offered the free sugar?
I fail to see how this analogy compares.

Actually it is justified to feel disgruntled as the quality of their service were you to discover that you were not to have sugar for your coffee, or that when you asked they then said "Thatll be 60 cents".

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Actually that was Leftimies

I call her a female because that is what she wants to be called presumably.


Why shouldnt she have her own preferences? Maybe she likes short guys or fat old men or amputees or who knows. However I find it quite amusing that you think shirley can have her own preferences yet are so keen to limit tom's to those areas that you find amenable; oh and I assume you find it equally inappropriate that Bob has a preference FOR women who used to be men, can't get enough of them - he is probably some sort of bigot too.

I have argued that if it is that important to Tom that he does not have sex with a transgendered person, he should take measures to ensure that he does not. It is unreasonable to expect Shirley to take responsibility for Tom's reaction when he was told by friends of Shirley's transgendered status. He had no idea leading up to, during, or after the act.

His overreaction is an indicator of a phobia. The expectation that Shirley takes responsibility for his phobia is why I submit his position is also rooted in bigotry. If Shirley overreacted to something similar, I'd be putting her on the spot, too.

This goes far beyond preference based on the OP, in my opinion.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I think ,well I know..we have two separate conversations going on .Tom and Shirley's specific situation,a one night stand and whether she should have assumed it might be relevant to him.And is a cis male (in general ) an irrational bigot if he chooses not to have sex with a trans female if he is aware of that.

No, that he freaks out upon discovering he had sex with a trans-female. Let's get the facts straight.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

I'm jumping in to offer my opinion again on the "should somebody ask before a one night stand just in case?"

My answer is, if it's that important to find out in order to avoid freaking out, then one should ask. Otherwise, it's placing an undue burden on a transgendered person to appease another person's phobia.

Toms reaction yes was unnecessary but I can understand to a degree why he feels that way, Trans-individuals are not readily accepted in our society, so yes there is much stigma that will be laden on there, coupled with homophobia, Toms reaction is not surprising in this day and age.

 

[McBell]

I dont expect her to KNOW - I expect her to either find out or simply cover her bases, just as could be expected of me to ensure that I disclose those things that might be relevant to her given reasonable assumptions about the criteria that significant numbers of women might find relevant.

Then how is it her responsibility?

Actually it is justified to feel disgruntled as the quality of their service were you to discover that you were not to have sugar for your coffee, or that when you asked they then said "Thatll be 60 cents".

If it is so important to you, why did not ask about sugar to begin with?

 

[Koldo]

Yet her assumption that it would not bother him is not acceptable?

Not at all. It is explained on that paragraph why.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Toms reaction yes was unnecessary but I can understand to a degree why he feels that way, Trans-individuals are not readily accepted in our society, so yes there is much stigma that will be laden on there, coupled with homophobia, Toms reaction is not surprising in this day and age.

THANK YOU!!! :clap