Is it wrong if you want to know a partners or potential partner's biological/original gender?

[dgirl1986]

Yes, no, and no.

This.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

And lets look at the reverse within this thread
- Denial that the problem exists in the first place.
- Reducing relevant preferences for sexual partners to a psychiatric category.
- Refusing the fundamental claims of these people as being able to form a rational reason for such a preference.

So, what's the claim? Transphobia-phobia? Being intolerant of intolerance?

Tom's "preference" is not a preference. It's rooted in bigotry and ignorance. He is showing an irrational hostile reaction toward what he perceives is Shirley's responsibility to disclose false information to Tom. Meaning, he was expecting her to say that she was born biologically male so that Tom can make a choice to decide whether or not he wants to sleep with a dude.

Such is simply not true.

 

[Leftimies]

Just because you believe something doesn't make it true. And in this case Tom's believe that he had sex with a man is what is not true no matter how much he wants it to be. So why should Shirley even care when she believes that she had sex with a man, and that Tom had sex with her, a woman? Why do Tom's feelings come before Shirley's?

I am not sure if that works on chromosome level. The SRS doesn't really actually biologically change the gender, you do know that right?

The person he had sex with - Shirley - didn't have uterus or womb either, so technically he didn't have sex with a female. Now that is an unquestionable fact, and in my opinion, worth mentioning before entering to bedroom. Do I think that Shirley for all practical purposes was a female? Yes. On the most technical level? No. I personally have no problem with transsexuals, I could name quite a few I wouldn't mind getting wild with, if circumstances were right. And perhaps more importantly, quite a few transsexuals that i could begin a permanent relationship with.

Thing is, you cannot force your values upon everyone. You have to take in consideration that not everyone wants to get that intimate with you, its a fact of life. On simpler level, you just cannot be friends with everyone, you can't force all the people to like you - it doesn't work that way.

I might add, that Tom in the example was a very, very foolish man to rush things if he had such strict criteria. Indeed, the real problem here is not transgender and attitudes towards it, but rather the incredibly shallow one-night-stand dating culture where things are rushed and no one likes the results.

 

[Koldo]

I think that would mostly depend on the culture we're talking about. I don't have enough info about this particular issue to suggest that men in the U.S. (if we consider that the hypothetical takes place there) would generally lean one way or the other.

Do you know of any culture where it wouldn't happen frequently?

If it makes no difference at all and he considers being trans a reason in and of itself not to have sex with Shirley? Yes, I think that's bigotry.

It does make a difference to the person perceiving the difference. :sarcastic

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

He could ask.

Right but should a man be expected to ask every woman prior just to be sure? And should a woman ask a man?

Not to mention that there is such bias over transexuals that the very act of asking someone could result in you losing out with them over them being offended that you would even consider the possibility.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Right but should a man be expected to ask every woman prior just to be sure? And should a woman ask a man?

Not to mention that there is such bias over transexuals that the very act of asking someone could result in you losing out with them over them being offended that you would even consider the possibility.

I'm jumping in to offer my opinion again on the "should somebody ask before a one night stand just in case?"

My answer is, if it's that important to find out in order to avoid freaking out, then one should ask. Otherwise, it's placing an undue burden on a transgendered person to appease another person's phobia.

 

[McBell]

Right but should a man be expected to ask every woman prior just to be sure? And should a woman ask a man?

Absolutely.
If it bother them so much, then it is their responsibility to know exactly who, what, when, where, and why they are sticking their body parts into another person.

 

[Koldo]

Right but should a man be expected to ask every woman prior just to be sure? And should a woman ask a man?

Not to mention that there is such bias over transexuals that the very act of asking someone could result in you losing out with them over them being offended that you would even consider the possibility.

Given that the trans could still lie about it...
And if she did, you would still hear them saying the man has to take responsibility, and that he is a bigot, and that he is transphobic.

Same deal. Really. It wouldn't change an iota on how they see Tom.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Seems to me the argument is summed by this:

Is it more of a grievance to have Tom face his transphobia? Or is it more of a grievance to have Shirley assume hardly anybody finds transgendered people sexually compatible?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Given that the trans could still lie about it...
And if she did, you would still hear them saying the man has to take responsibility, and that he is a bigot, and that he is transphobic.

Same deal. Really. It wouldn't change an iota on how they see Tom.

That's okay. You and others would still argue that Shirley is considered naturally undesirable by a lot of people and that she should know her place. Such is the case with a cis-normative society.

 

[McBell]

Same deal. Really. It wouldn't change an iota on how they see Tom.

Interesting how Tom was not the least bit concerned with it before, during, or even immediately after his one night stand....

Interesting how an erection can override a mans ego.
Even more interesting is how said ego is all the more bruised when the erection wears off.....

 

[Koldo]

Interesting how Tom was not the least bit concerned with it before, during, or even immediately after his one night stand....

Interesting how an erection can override a mans ego.
Even more interesting is how said ego is all the more bruised when the erection wears off.....

Rather, it is interesting how Shirley looked exactly like any ordinary (attractive) woman to Tom, so much that he didn't even think for a moment she was a trans woman.

 

[Koldo]

That's okay. You and others would still argue that Shirley is considered naturally undesirable by a lot of people and that she should know her place. Such is the case with a cis-normative society.

That she should know her place?
What is that even supposed to mean? :sarcastic

 

[InformedIgnorance]

So, what's the claim? Transphobia-phobia? Being intolerant of intolerance?

Tom's "preference" is not a preference. It's rooted in bigotry and ignorance. He is showing an irrational hostile reaction toward what he perceives is Shirley's responsibility to disclose false information to Tom. Meaning, he was expecting her to say that she was born biologically male so that Tom can make a choice to decide whether or not he wants to sleep with a dude.

Such is simply not true.

You are attributing far more than the OP suggests in terms of Tom's reasons and in doing so you are attempting to make it about bigotry which is not implied in the OP.

The reaction referred to in the OP, feeling of having been deceived is not the same as an irrational fear. He was indeed (self) deceived as he thought she was cis-female. One can argue quite fully that she is under no inherent requirement to tell him about her status (despite the widespread presence of those with preferences such as his and indeed the extremely low number of people with her status making her situation less predictable while his preferences more predictable), however, it is also an entirely valid point of view from his perspective that she intentionally denied him the capacity to give informed consent about the sexual encounter by her withholding relevant information from his decision making process - thus feelings that it is unethical are indeed not without merit. Whether or not those feelings are then borne out as being completely reasonable under HER circumstances is another matter, but yes - certainly it is a rational and reasonable response on HIS part to recognize that he was deceived and to consider it unethical.

However while it is entirely possible that Tom MAY be a bigot, it is also entirely possible that this scenario can arise without bigotry simply based on the idea of having a personal preference in sexual partners that is cis-female.

I would expect my potential partner to tell me such a thing so I could make an informed decision I am not sure whether or not it would affect my decision under the circumstances (and were I to find out about it afterwards I am not sure how I would feel about it in a one night stand - I might actually prefer NOT to know if it was after the fact, which isnt particularly open of me I know), however it would be close minded of me to assume that this is the case for everyone.

 

[DallasApple]

Do I think that Shirley for all practical purposes was a female? Yes. On the most technical level? No.

See I think this is wear some get stumped.

 

[McBell]

Rather, it is interesting how Shirley looked exactly like any ordinary (attractive) woman to Tom, so much that he didn't even think for a moment she was a trans woman.

thank you for furthering my point.

 

[Koldo]

thank you for furthering my point.

You're welcome.

 

[McBell]

I would expect my potential partner to tell me such a thing so I could make an informed decision.

You really expect full disclosure for a one night stand?

 

[Koldo]

You really expect full disclosure for a one night stand?

He didn't say 'full' though.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

That she should know her place?
What is that even supposed to mean? :sarcastic

That she should assume she is undesirable, she is not really female, and that guys are very likely going to not want to have sex with her, and act accordingly.