Is it wrong if you want to know a partners or potential partner's biological/original gender?

[Poeticus]

I already addressed marriage several times in this thread.

Enlighten me once more, por favor.

 

[Penumbra]

Enlighten me once more, por favor.

There is a search function, but okay.

-Sleeping with a person's spouse can cause severe emotional harm to that spouse. A person may not want to unwillingly be involved in ruining the marriage of another person, and in some cases people have killed cheaters in response to finding out about it. Sleeping with someone while married can potentially create an enemy for that person without them having known it, and/or can get them intertwined with other people.

-Being the type of person to break a major vow like that says something about personality.

-The person still holds some responsibility for sleeping with a married person if they didn't clarify their relationship status before having sex, but I do think it would be unethical to omit such information, primarily for the top reason.

 

[DallasApple]

Not much that can be done about that, but I wouldn't validate it by proposing that ethics have to based around their personal beliefs if those beliefs cannot be coherently explained.

O.K but here is what I'm trying to say..I don't have to coherently explain..or explain at all for that matter what I believe in which the only end result is me choosing not to have sex with someone.

I think unless you are in a committed sexual relationship where you have agreed to be reasonably sexually available to someone, you don't have to ever explain why you don't want to have sex.And if you do anyway (explain) I'm sorry but its not up to someone else to decide if their reasons are coherent enough or not.Its personal ethics.

I personally feel its unethical to eat eggs laid by chickens that are raised in grossly inhumane environments.So I CHOOSE NOT to buy eggs from chickens who are kept that way..I ONLY buy pastured eggs.Laid by chickens that are kept outside in a pasture /guarded by trained dogs from natural preditors ..and that eat a natural species appropriate diet.

Someone else may have no issue and think it not unethical to eat the mass produced and less expensive eggs.They have no issue with how the chickens are kept..I am under no obligation to explain to them why I feel for ME its against my personal ethics.They also owe me no explanation ..Yeah education ...we should not wear blinders.But in the end its a personal choice which eggs I will buy and others will buy.

In the end its my personal ethics and theirs.What we can each live with.

 

[DallasApple]

-Sleeping with a person's spouse can cause severe emotional harm to that spouse. A person may not want to unwillingly be involved in ruining the marriage of another person, and in some cases people have killed cheaters in response to finding out about it. Sleeping with someone while married can potentially create an enemy for that person without them having known it, and/or can get them intertwined with other people.

I asked this before though..I gave that same example.What if the spouse was O.K with having extra marital affairs? But the person who they had sex with had a moral /ethical belief it was wrong.But had reasonable reason to "assume" they were sleeping with and unmarried person?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

O.K but here is what I'm trying to say..I don't have to coherently explain..or explain at all for that matter what I believe in which the only end result is me choosing not to have sex with someone.

I think unless you are in a committed sexual relationship where you have agreed to be reasonably sexually available to someone, you don't have to ever explain why you don't want to have sex.And if you do anyway (explain) I'm sorry but its not up to someone else to decide if their reasons are coherent enough or not.Its personal ethics.

I personally feel its unethical to eat eggs laid by chickens that are raised in grossly inhumane environments.So I CHOOSE NOT to buy eggs from chickens who are kept that way..I ONLY buy pastured eggs.Laid by chickens that are kept outside in a pasture /guarded by trained dogs from natural preditors ..and that eat a natural species appropriate diet.

Someone else may have no issue and think it not unethical to eat the mass produced and less expensive eggs.They have no issue with how the chickens are kept..I am under no obligation to explain to them why I feel for ME its against my personal ethics.They also owe me no explanation ..Yeah education ...we should not wear blinders.But in the end its a personal choice which eggs I will buy and others will buy.

In the end its my personal ethics and theirs.What we can each live with.

So, if somebody served you eggs, and you really enjoyed them, and then found out they were raised in a factory farm, would you feel deceived, violated, misled? Or would you, in a sense, have a moment of "Awww, bummer. Not what I preferred"?

Would you think whoever served you eggs from the factory farm (which you enjoyed) lied to you? Would you think that person was keeping something from you that was really important to you? Or would you consider it your own personal ethics, and make sure next time that you only eat eggs raised humanely?

I think that's relevant to the OP.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I asked this before though..I gave that same example.What if the spouse was O.K with having extra marital affairs? But the person who they had sex with had a moral /ethical belief it was wrong.But had reasonable reason to "assume" they were sleeping with and unmarried person?

I'm a polyamorous woman. I've also mistakenly in my younger days slept with married people when I thought they were unmarried.

My reaction? I didn't fault them. I had a one night stand. If it's that important to me to sleep with somebody who is married (or not), I'll make sure next time.

If that person has a moral/ethical belief that it's wrong to sleep with married people or not, then it's up to them to ensure that they're not sleeping with married people. If they discover later that they slept with a married person unknowingly in a one night stand, I have the same opinion.

I mean....frick....it's a one night stand. Take your chances, folks.

I find it interesting we jump back and forth between wanting to justify never ever ever ever ever sleeping with a transgendered person from ethical positions to personal preferences. And denying that such a thing as phobia or ignorance exists. I can give Lyn some props for offering a range of personal physical preferences (such as a presence of genitalia), but in the case of the OP, I don't buy it.

 

[DallasApple]

So, if somebody served you eggs, and you really enjoyed them, and then found out they were raised in a factory farm, would you feel deceived, violated, misled? Or would you, in a sense, have a moment of "Awww, bummer. Not what I preferred"?

First of all I can taste the difference. BUT having said that.If I was served eggs by a person that had any reason to think this would be against my wishes and if I had known I would not have eaten the eggs I would be upset with them.

Having said that my example was really to demonstrate how we can have the same information and still choose personally differently and have a set of different ethics.For most I think our sexuality runs deeper in our psyche and would have a greater impact on most than eating eggs one time from mistreated hens.

I would not compare the two as far as psychological impact.Like I said I was using it as an example of how personal ethics can vary even with the same information .

 

[MysticSang'ha]

First of all I can taste the difference. BUT having said that.If I was served eggs by a person that had any reason to think this would be against my wishes and if I had known I would not have eaten the eggs I would be upset with them.

What if you just met them? What reason would they have to believe it?

Having said that my example was really to demonstrate how we can have the same information and still choose personally differently and have a set of different ethics.For most I think our sexuality runs deeper in our psyche and would have a greater impact on most than eating eggs one time from mistreated hens.

Okay. Now explain the connection with the OP and Tom's feelings. Is he justified?

I would not compare the two as far as psychological impact.Like I said I was using it as an example of how personal ethics can vary even with the same information .

And yet, it's entirely possible for personal ethics to be based on ignorance. Do you agree or not?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

By the way, I purchase eggs from a local farm where the hens are pastured. So I can taste the difference too. Heck, I've helped volunteer at that farm.

And yet personally, I think being upset at somebody for serving me eggs from a factory farm is overreacting. It's a free meal. Typically, I'm grateful for the experience and for their generosity.

 

[DallasApple]

I mean....frick....it's a one night stand. Take your chances, folks.

Don't get me wrong I don't think its something to commit suicide over or anything.But I don't think being even "medium' upset about it makes someone a crazed hating phobic bigot.

Also someone needs to alert the media.LOL>>.Seriously because I was picking my husbands brain today (on this topic and how he would feel) ..and he said he saw a "whole special" on transexuals ...and one of the things was (drum roll) most seem to have some idea a cis hetero man may in fact take issue and not want to have sex with them or date them ..and even pre- ops will go to lengths to not just not mention it ..but restrict sexual activity to oral sex (for him ) for 4 or 5 dates.....then spring it on him ..So maybe that's not giving transexuals a very good reputation as to the deception factor ?These are trans (genders? ) they have penises.

 

[Penumbra]

O.K but here is what I'm trying to say..I don't have to coherently explain..or explain at all for that matter what I believe in which the only end result is me choosing not to have sex with someone.

I think unless you are in a committed sexual relationship where you have agreed to be reasonably sexually available to someone, you don't have to ever explain why you don't want to have sex.And if you do anyway (explain) I'm sorry but its not up to someone else to decide if their reasons are coherent enough or not.Its personal ethics.

I personally feel its unethical to eat eggs laid by chickens that are raised in grossly inhumane environments.So I CHOOSE NOT to buy eggs from chickens who are kept that way..I ONLY buy pastured eggs.Laid by chickens that are kept outside in a pasture /guarded by trained dogs from natural preditors ..and that eat a natural species appropriate diet.

Someone else may have no issue and think it not unethical to eat the mass produced and less expensive eggs.They have no issue with how the chickens are kept..I am under no obligation to explain to them why I feel for ME its against my personal ethics.They also owe me no explanation ..Yeah education ...we should not wear blinders.But in the end its a personal choice which eggs I will buy and others will buy.

In the end its my personal ethics and theirs.What we can each live with.

That causes animals actual harm, and it's not a good example for me because I don't believe factory farms like that should be legal. I don't believe that's a difference in personal ethics- that's harm to others with real-world consequences.

Failing that, the government allows certain statements, like "organic" to appear on things. If the label isn't there, assume it doesn't meet that criteria, unless explained otherwise. Plus, even those labels can be misleading- a consumer really has to do her homework and take responsibility for her food choices rather than blaming other people, like in Tom's case.

I asked this before though..I gave that same example.What if the spouse was O.K with having extra marital affairs? But the person who they had sex with had a moral /ethical belief it was wrong.But had reasonable reason to "assume" they were sleeping with and unmarried person?

The person has a moral/ethical belief about not having sex with polyamorous partners, while blissfully having casual sex with strangers? Sounds to me like that person has to take responsibility and ask.

 

[DallasApple]

And yet personally, I think being upset at somebody for serving me eggs from a factory farm is overreacting. It's a free meal. Typically, I'm grateful for the experience and for their generosity.

I'm one of the most grateful people on earth.(I think ..or sometimes anyway)..But I don't think "being upset" is 'over reacting"...Because I don't NEED a "free meal' .If I was dying of starvation ?Different story ..beggars can't be choosers.I also on occasion break my own rule VOLUNTARILY...where I know the eggs are from tortured hens.Any upset I have over that is on me solely.But to be honest???I typically will not eat the eggs if I know.

 

[DallasApple]

By the way, I purchase eggs from a local farm where the hens are pastured. So I can taste the difference too. Heck, I've helped volunteer at that farm.

:bounce

You can see the difference too.The yolk.The difference in pale yellow verses bright orange.(they are more vitamin rich too..and richer in omegas)

 

[DallasApple]

I don't believe that's a difference in personal ethics- that's harm to others with real-world consequences.

I do because MANY people know this and have no ethical delima over it.Why do you think there is still a high demand for them?Maybe they need to be informed the majority of the little roosters born in the hatcheries are litterally thrown in the trashcan and left to die because HECK we only need so many roosters..1,000's and thousands of little baby roosters tossed in the trash can every day because they aren't useful.They don't even bother to just euthenize them.That would cost "extra".

 

[Penumbra]

I do because MANY people know this and have no ethical delima over it.Why do you think there is still a high demand for them?Maybe they need to be informed the majority of the little roosters born in the hatcheries are litterally thrown in the trashcan and left to die because HECK we only need so many roosters..1,000's and thousands of little baby roosters tossed in the trash can every day because they aren't useful.They don't even bother to just euthenize them.That would cost "extra".

What I mean is not that there aren't various ethical views on it. Instead, what I mean is that it's not like, "well I have an issue with factory farms, you're fine with factory farms, we'll just agree to disagree " Instead, the first person will often want to make factory farms illegal, or things like that. It's not just two differences of opinion that don't affect the world with no way to resolve the disagreement between two equally valid positions.

 

[DallasApple]

The person has a moral/ethical belief about not having sex with polyamorous partners, while blissfully having casual sex with strangers?

Yes.Blistfully having casual sex with someone they have been led to "believe" fits the criteria of who they are willing to blistfully have casual sex with.

Unless what you mean is someone that can enjoy casual sex forfeits the right to have any morals or ethics involved in who they choose to have casual sex with.Otherwise I have no idea what you mean.

 

[DallasApple]

It's not just two differences of opinion that don't affect the world with no way to resolve the disagreement between two equally valid positions.

Just because we don't think their position is equally valid doesn't mean to them its not.

Let me ask you this..Are hens (as we speak) all over America (just one place) NOT living in horrendous inhumane conditions to stock the countries groceries .Tomorrow are not many people and families going to crack those eggs in a frying pan for breakfast and not give it a second thought how they got on their plate?(even though they KNOW?)

 

[DallasApple]

We need to start a different topic on hens now.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

Ten Signs of Transphobia in Our Culture, by Christopher A. Shelley

- Denial that the problem exists in the first place.
- Inability to distinguish between categories such as queer, gay, lesbian, and trans.
- Lack of meaningful discussion in educational and workplace settings.
- Anxiety over not being able to tell if a person is male or female.
- Crude jokes directed towards trans people or with trans-related content.
- Refusal to accept trans people as one's own teacher, doctor, politician, dentist, etc.
- Thinking that being trans is OK but also dismissing the idea of ever dating a transperson.
- Reducing trans to being merely and solely a psychiatric category.
- Trivialization and media spectacles centred on trans-ness as an object of 'fascination.'
- Refusing the fundamental claims of transpeople as being genuinely mis-sexed.

And lets look at the reverse within this thread
- Denial that the problem exists in the first place.
- Reducing relevant preferences for sexual partners to a psychiatric category.
- Refusing the fundamental claims of these people as being able to form a rational reason for such a preference.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The point is it doesn't matter what you believe.If they consider it them having homosexual sex then for them it IS .They don't need you to agree or not agree.Its their belief period. The other thing is just pretty simply if all the person is saying is no to sex with a trans person for themselves but their attitude is live and let live (IOW its none of my business who you have sex with just not with me) I don't get how that's doing something wrong to a whole group.

Just because you believe something doesn't make it true. And in this case Tom's believe that he had sex with a man is what is not true no matter how much he wants it to be. So why should Shirley even care when she believes that she had sex with a man, and that Tom had sex with her, a woman? Why do Tom's feelings come before Shirley's?