Is it wrong if you want to know a partners or potential partner's biological/original gender?

[Poeticus]

You can tell me all you want they are not in the same category.But I have asked around this week to try and get an idea how unusual Tom is and if I am close at all to why I think he acted like that...its a small sample but..I am very close.It seems its hard to 'grasp" may even be impossible for some ..that a trans female is not really a male.A man that has had surgery and takes hormones to have the body of a female..and I'm assuming almost like "role playing" as a woman. I.E sex with a trans female is really homosexual sex.

That's why I can not call it "bigotry" in those cases.I also don't see it as 'irrational" based on that belief that a cis-male would refuse to have sex with a trans female.

I do pick up too though..that even if they might "grasp" the concept of female identity male sex organs ....."knowing" that she once has a penis ..and would grow facial hair and have a "man voice" without the hormones makes her still not a real female.

Like I said, Dallas: you won't know for sure until you consult a well renowned physician, psychiatrist, psychologist, and therapist. Their professional diagnoses as well as opinions will logically and scientifically override those of RF as pertaining to whether or not you are a transphobe. Their evaluation is what matters the most. If they say you aren't a transphobe after hearing your whole case, don't worry about it.

 

[Poeticus]

Better not be. That's where I come from. The heart, that is. *SMACK!*

What tingles my heart is different from what tingles your heart. I hope these differences aren't crimes against the universe.

*switches to water balloon warfare*

 

[DallasApple]

I disagree. It isn't homosexual sex, regardless of how he feels and believes.

The point is it doesn't matter what you believe.If they consider it them having homosexual sex then for them it IS .They don't need you to agree or not agree.Its their belief period. The other thing is just pretty simply if all the person is saying is no to sex with a trans person for themselves but their attitude is live and let live (IOW its none of my business who you have sex with just not with me) I don't get how that's doing something wrong to a whole group.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

What tingles my heart is different from what tingles your heart. I hope these differences aren't crimes against the universe.

*switches to water balloon warfare*

Tingle away. As long as the tingles are honest about what constitutes preference and what constitutes phobias. Boo-yah! *sticks with pillows cuz it's fun*

 

[DallasApple]

this is agianst human nature , there no doubt about it .

If its against human nature it would not exist in human nature.

 

[Poeticus]

I don't get how that's doing something wrong to a whole group.

(sarcasm):

It is. It's a crime against humanity. You can literally kill millions and millions of innocent people and it's a-okay. But, don't you dare not have intercourse with a trans-person. If you do not have sex with a trans-person, you are the devil incarnate and the most evil being of all time to the infinite power. Muahahaha!

 

[Penumbra]

That would be making a caricature out of the issue rather than articulating a response to the issue.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

The point is it doesn't matter what you believe.If they consider it them having homosexual sex then for them it IS .They don't need you to agree or not agree.Its their belief period. The other thing is just pretty simply if all the person is saying is no to sex with a trans person for themselves but their attitude is live and let live (IOW its none of my business who you have sex with just not with me) I don't get how that's doing something wrong to a whole group.

I'm not going by what I believe, but by learning about the realities. Your hypothetical person is only sticking to HIS beliefs. And you are arguing that it is just as valid, just as innocent, just as un-ignorant, just as not-bigoted-meanie-person as anything else. If he truly believes he had sex with a man, regardless of how he enjoyed himself with a fully post-op transitioned female, then his belief is one of ignorance.

No, of course he isn't killing anybody or committing genocide, but that doesn't make his belief legitimate. As Penumbra is saying, it's an imaginary problem. There is no penis. No facial hair. No physical sign at all that the person is male in any way. It's all in his mind that this person is still a dude.

Clinging to that notion is a position from ignorance. Doesn't make them a horrible person, but that problem can be easily remedied with education.

 

[DallasApple]

"I was attracted to him, but I'm not anymore. I found out he's Asian."

I get what you are trying to say.But I still can't compare that to basic sexual orientation and sexual preference.As long as a man believes a trans woman is really a male.Or heck even 'more male" than female ....he (a heterosexual cis male) will think he just found out he engaged in homosexual sex .Which goes against his very core sexual nature.

And please understand.I'm not "endorsing" .I'm not even saying its "right or wrong".Just what I believe is going on in the mans head.(many men's heads not all)

 

[MysticSang'ha]

(sarcasm):

It is. It's a crime against humanity. You can literally kill millions and millions of innocent people and it's a-okay. But, don't you dare not have intercourse with a trans-person. If you do not have sex with a trans-person, you are the devil incarnate and the most evil being of all time to the infinite power. Muahahaha!

(I can play this sarcasm game too, and better ):

I only prefer cis-people!!! It's a preference, so don't think I'm a bad person! I'm not mean! Anybody who brings research to the table isn't compassionate to my beliefs! Anybody who says my position is one of ignorance is attacking me! They just don't understand I'm legitimate in saying I don't like trans-gendered people! WHY?!?!? That's so unfair!!!! Stop telling me facts!!! I'm a good person!!!!

Pillow fights are more fun. I can bring caramel, too, to make it stickier.

 

[Poeticus]

Tingle away. As long as the tingles are honest about what constitutes preference and what constitutes phobias. Boo-yah! *sticks with pillows cuz it's fun*

I guess I'm phobic, because:
...what tingles my heart is having a loving relationship with a female who also believes that her and I should work together, biologically, in order to conceive wonderful children who will have our genes and our physical traits. I guess I should be charged with crimes against humanity and be put to death because I would like to start a family in the future - and this could only be done through the involvement of a cis-female and a cis-male.

*double pillow whammy*

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I get what you are trying to say.But I still can't compare that to basic sexual orientation and sexual preference.As long as a man believes a trans woman is really a male.Or heck even 'more male" than female ....he (a heterosexual cis male) will think he just found out he engaged in homosexual sex .Which goes against his very core sexual nature.

And please understand.I'm not "endorsing" .I'm not even saying its "right or wrong".Just what I believe is going on in the mans head.(many men's heads not all)

Yes, there are men who feel this way....now what?

Do we educate? Or do we just stay quiet and let them keep thinking this? Are we afraid to stir the pot? Or can we keep educating and bringing awareness to the issue and for the equality of transgendered people?

 

[Poeticus]

(I can play this sarcasm game too, and better ):

I only prefer cis-people!!! It's a preference, so don't think I'm a bad person! I'm not mean! Anybody who brings research to the table isn't compassionate to my beliefs! Anybody who says my position is one of ignorance is attacking me! They just don't understand I'm legitimate in saying I don't like trans-gendered people! WHY?!?!? That's so unfair!!!! Stop telling me facts!!! I'm a good person!!!!

Pillow fights are more fun. I can bring caramel, too, to make it stickier.

You've already played that game. But, I'll address your points anyways:

1. Trans-females are female.
2. "brings research to the table" = um, you don't need to, homie; because I already know for a fact that trans-females are female
3. my position is that I prefer cis-females - and, I don't engage in one night stands because it's against my culture - so i don't have to worry about sleeping with...
4. someone and then waking up being a whiney b**** like Tom (who's a sack of wine by the way)

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I guess I'm phobic, because:
...what tingles my heart is having a loving relationship with a female who also believes that her and I should work together, biologically, in order to conceive wonderful children who will have our genes and our physical traits. I guess I should be charged with crimes against humanity and be put to death because I would like to start a family in the future - and this could only be done through the involvement of a cis-female and a cis-male.

*double pillow whammy*

No putting anybody to death. How realistic are your tingles? Heaven forbid you find what you think is the cis-woman of your dreams, and she turns out to be:

Closeted lesbian
Infertile
Sexually mutilated

Or has uterine or ovarian cancer shortly after you become married and must have a total hysterectomy in order to survive (but will no longer be able to conceive).

I submit you are putting yourself at risk for major disappointment when your tingles are so specific.

*SMACK!!!*

 

[MysticSang'ha]

You've already played that game. But, I'll address your points anyways:

1. Trans-females are female.
2. "brings research to the table" = um, you don't need to, homie; because I already know for a fact that trans-females are female
3. my position is that I prefer cis-females - and, I don't engage in one night stands because it's against my culture - so i don't have to worry about sleeping with...
4. someone and then waking up being a whiney b**** like Tom (who's a sack of wine by the way)

Hold up...I was being sarcastic, homey.

 

[Penumbra]

I get what you are trying to say.But I still can't compare that to basic sexual orientation and sexual preference.As long as a man believes a trans woman is really a male.Or heck even 'more male" than female ....he (a heterosexual cis male) will think he just found out he engaged in homosexual sex .Which goes against his very core sexual nature.

And please understand.I'm not "endorsing" .I'm not even saying its "right or wrong".Just what I believe is going on in the mans head.(many men's heads not all)

But what I mean is, you're not providing a clear reason to differentiate based on invisible race, or invisible chromosomes. Just saying something along the lines of "one is race, the other is gender identity" doesn't resolve the comparison. They're both things that did not impact his attraction during the casual sex experience, and do not necessarily impact the person's personality.

I think a clear difference between permanent instincts, and social taboos, are that social taboos can be quickly changed from generation to generation. Racism was/is a social taboo, and now homophobia is a social taboo where some people, especially younger people, have statistically less and less of a problem with it, while other people, especially older people, still statistically have major issues with it.

We can't really say that example person's racial issue with Asians is valid. At best we can say, "Well nobody is going to force you to have sex with anyone, but you might want to look into that..."

But some people are saying the person's homophobic issue is valid. That it's valid to be repulsed by something that he didn't previously notice, that didn't affect the night, that doesn't necessarily say anything about the person's personality, or anything like that. It's different than not being attracted to someone who is clearly you're own sex, because he was indeed attracted. Just because homophobia is more common than racism currently is (and probably comparable in frequency to what racism used to be like), I don't think that means it's more valid, than racism. Certainly not to the point where ethics have to be constructed around their issues about invisible things that they can not articulate and explain.

And like I said, it comes in layers:

Could the person in that example explain why they wouldn't ever have sex with a trans person?

Is it a legitimate issue about their appearance (for some trans people), about other senses (like someone maybe not wanting to have sex with a current smoker if the breathe bothers them), or about the surgical results between their legs (apparently it goes unnoticed by some)? Is it a misunderstanding of the causes of transgender status, thinking that it's a personality fault or that the person is perverted? Is it a concern about harm (like someone's married, or someone has an STD, or the risks of producing a child from incest)? Or, can a person like someone's appearance, have no issues with a person's personality, but still find themselves repulsed by the idea of having sex, without calling it an irrational fear or disproportionate reaction? And what if they already had sex with a trans person without knowing and enjoyed it? What does that say about the later assessment of their repulsion towards it?

That's why I think, and others seem to think, there are multiple layers here.

-There are regular preferences, whether they make sense or not.
-Then there are strong repulsions, phobias, where the problem cannot be articulated and yet hasn't affected the actual act of sex or the person's personality. But even then, there's a polite way to handle it, a way of taking responsibility for one's own disproportionate issues.
-Then there are people with strong repulsions, that then blame the other partner, or expect society to revolve around their repulsions, rather than to take the responsibility to make sure their own repulsions are not present. That would be Tom in this case.

Tom wouldn't get much heat if he stopped at step 2. People might say, "well that doesn't seem to make any sense, it seems to be a social taboo or phobia to be freaked out in hindsight about non-harmful invisible information", but if he's not expecting other people to validate and revolve their ethics around his issue, then it's not a giant deal.

 

[Penumbra]

I guess I'm phobic, because:
...what tingles my heart is having a loving relationship with a female who also believes that her and I should work together, biologically, in order to conceive wonderful children who will have our genes and our physical traits. I guess I should be charged with crimes against humanity and be put to death because I would like to start a family in the future - and this could only be done through the involvement of a cis-female and a cis-male.

*double pillow whammy*

Not wanting to marry a trans woman due to her being infertile may be valid if fertility is placed on such a high level of importance, and if the same logic is extended to infertile non-trans women. Otherwise it would likely be a logically untenable position.

Remember though, the thread was about casual sex, in hind sight.

 

[Poeticus]

No putting anybody to death. How realistic are your tingles? Heaven forbid you find what you think is the cis-woman of your dreams, and she turns out to be:

Closeted lesbian
Infertile
Sexually mutilated

Or has uterine or ovarian cancer shortly after you become married and must have a total hysterectomy in order to survive (but will no longer be able to conceive).

I submit you are putting yourself at risk for major disappointment when your tingles are so specific.

*SMACK!!!*

I am getting an arraigned marriage in the future when I turn 30 (I am 20 right now) with a female from my tribe (Karadva) from our family's village in Gujarat (as it has been done before me for hundreds and hundreds of years). I don't think I am putting myself for "major" disappointment. Plus, I could care less if she turns out to be infertile. My aunt found out she was infertile a week after she got married. She and her hubby turned out to be just fine. Also, arraigned marriages work in a unique way. So, I don't have a lot to worry about.

 

[DallasApple]

Your hypothetical person is only sticking to HIS beliefs.

Exactly.And ?If all that belief results in is him choosing to not engage in sex with a trans female and he minds his own business otherwise what difference does it make?

If a black man would refuse to have sex with white women because his personal belief is we are a different species..and ALL the belief results in is him living his personal life not having sex with white women ,why would we try and change his personal beliefs ?Who is he hurting in any practical meaningful way by not having sex with white women?

No matter how ridiculous his beliefs are and no matter how many people know we are the same species why does it matter if the only outcome of that he doesn't have sex with white women.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I am getting an arraigned marriage in the future when I turn 30 (I am 20 right now) with a female from my tribe (Karadva) from our family's village in Gujarat (as it has been done before me for hundreds and hundreds of years). I don't think I am putting myself for "major" disappointment. Plus, I could care less if she turns out to be infertile. My aunt found out she was infertile a week after she got married. She and her hubby turned out to be just fine. Also, arraigned marriages work in a unique way. So, I don't have a lot to worry about.

Okay. Good luck to you.