Is it wrong if you want to know a partners or potential partner's biological/original gender?

[Koldo]

I'm sorry. I don't want to be a Chaeto-phobe. I didn't know the hair would be there. What if the hair strand still had gel on it from last night when I was out partying with a few cis-mamacitas from Chem class? It would mix with the seasoning I had for that rice. I must now eat the hair along with the rice, otherwise, I am evil!

EDIT: This is just a Pillow Fight argument. Not to be taken seriously.

Stop trying to make excuses!
You HAD to eat your breakfast with that hair on it.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Stop trying to make excuses!
You HAD to eat your breakfast with that hair on it.

*hands Koldo a pillow*

 

[Poeticus]

Stop trying to make excuses!
You HAD to eat your breakfast with that hair on it.

Yeah, I guess I had to eat it. If I didn't, I made it too much of a "priority" to not eat it. And, thus, I am the biggest evil scum of all time who should be more heavily punished than the killers: of those innocent people who lost their lives in the myriad of holocausts conducted throughout human history.

 

[DallasApple]

Could the person in that example explain why they wouldn't ever have sex with a trans person?

What if its the belief that the person is a man.No matter what they look like on the outside.And maybe even whats on the outside is not "real" female genitalia.Even that her clitoris was naturally a full sized penis therefore its still a penis just medically altered.IOW a man just made to look like a woman and that acts like a woman.A straight heterosexual (cis) man might in HIS HEAD believe he is having sex with a man which is against his very nature.

I just can not in good faith conclude that is a phobia "against' trans people.Anymore than the same man not wanting to have sex with a homosexual man (penis and all).

Also the same man ..would never "discriminate" against a trans person in any way.He would have no issue being room mates with them giving them a job and promotions (if in the capacity to do so) harbors no ill will what so ever. He simply would never have sex with one.For his own PERSONAL reasons.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Yeah, I guess I had to eat it. If I didn't, I made it too much of a "priority" to not eat it. And, thus, I am the biggest evil scum of all time who should be more heavily punished than those innocent people who lost their lives in the myriad of holocausts conducted throughout human history.

Personally, I don't think anybody has actually really had good sexual adventures if they haven't dealt with the occasional hair stuck in the back of the throat, but that's just me.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

What if its the belief that the person is a man.No matter what they look like on the outside.And maybe even whats on the outside is not "real" female genitalia.Even that her clitoris was naturally a full sized penis therefore its still a penis just medically altered.IOW a man just made to look like a woman and that acts like a woman.A straight heterosexual (cis) man might in HIS HEAD believe he is having sex with a man which is against his very nature.

Then his position is one of ignorance.

I just can not in good faith conclude that is a phobia "against' trans people.Anymore than the same man not wanting to have sex with a homosexual man (penis and all).

Those are not in the same category, however.

Also the same man ..would never "discriminate" against a trans person in any way.He would have no issue being room mates with them giving them a job and promotions (if in the capacity to do so) harbors no ill will what so ever. He simply would never have sex with one.For his own PERSONAL reasons.

I find that to be in the same reasoning as people who say they'll work with people outside their race, but would never ever date someone outside their race for personal reasons.

 

[Poeticus]

Personally, I don't think anybody has actually really had good sexual adventures if they haven't dealt with the occasional hair stuck in the back of the throat, but that's just me.

*loads two pillows for special pillow maneuver*

Sorry. I don't deep throat.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

*loads two pillows for special pillow maneuver*

Sorry. I don't deep throat.

That's only one way. There are others ways of accidentally swallowing some hair.

 

[Poeticus]

That's only one way. There are others ways of accidentally swallowing some hair.

*holds pillow to the side of body and runs fingers through silky hair*

I enjoy swimming in the rosey-flagrant underworlds of cis-females (only of those) that I have been dating for a long time: hairy or not.

 

[DallasApple]

Then his position is one of ignorance.

Well its partially true as far as the person was once physically a male.And just the knowledge of that leading to the belief she is really a man then ..may be ignorant but ignorant is a far cry from bigotry.And the result of that belief (not wanting to engage in sex with her) then would not be an "irrational' response.

IOW as long as he believes that (regardless if we think its ignorant) its not a phobic reaction to not want to have homosexual sex if you are a heterosexual.Its your sexual preference by nature.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

*holds pillow to the side of body and runs fingers through silky hair*

I enjoy swimming in the rosey-flagrant underworlds of cis-females (only of those) that I have been dating for a long time: hairy or not.

I enjoy my sex with cool people who aren't bigoted, who are open-minded, have a sense of humor, and are adventurous. Take that homey. *smack*

 

[Poeticus]

I enjoy my sex with cool people who aren't bigoted, who are open-minded, have a sense of humor, and are adventurous. Take that homey. *smack*

*ducks under incoming mystical pillow* *runs fingers through silky hair once more*

Um. How about I have relationships with those that I desire from my heart? Or, is that a crime against humanity?

 

[Penumbra]

I found this interesting, and wanted your thoughts on it, Lyn:

The Tyee – In Defence of Trans People

I bolded certain aspects of the list to highlight some of the responses in this thread, since I think they're relevant to our culture's deeply ingrained transphobia.

I think those ten signs are mostly correct, but I'd have add some caveats to some of them.

Inability to distinguish between categories such as queer, gay, lesbian, and trans.

I'd probably say, "Inability and unwillingness to distinguish." Some people don't know, but then can ask about it or search about it. There was a time when I didn't know what queer meant, what genderqueer meant, etc. Some people may not care about learning and may not care about being offensive to others.

Anxiety over not being able to tell if a person is male or female.

I think that would depend on whether the anxiety is intrinsic, or whether it is anxiety over the possibility of offending the other person.

Thinking that being trans is OK but also dismissing the idea of ever dating a transperson.

I think that one is mostly true, but I think there some valid exceptions. Like, if a woman is into men, but doesn't feel attraction towards a trans man with a vagina. Or if a man doesn't view the surgical results of a trans woman's vagina as satisfactory (apparently some people have expressed disapproval over the results in this thread- I don't know if they've personally encountered and inspected any...). Or if they're not attracted to some physical attributes of people they can tell are transsexual. I think the dismissing becomes less rational if someone can't come out and say they're not physically attracted, can't articulate anything else about them, and so forth.

What I also found sad in the link was the story of how transgendered women are denied shelter when they're battered by a partner because the shelter only allows women, and they don't allow "men" in their shelter even though the person requesting shelter is a transgendered woman. I feel such a case ought to be brought up as important to how we work with victims of domestic violence, and gender-specific violence at that.

When it comes to this thread, however, I find the same grievances from Tom's supporters and those who empathize with his reactions and giving his reaction legitimacy as more evidence of the prevalence of transphobia in our culture.

I think gender identity is still the one unresolved issue of discrimination even in progressive cultures. There was racism, which still exists, but has moved from an institution (slavery, segregation) to something that is not socially acceptable. There was sexism which also moved from institutionalized (unable to vote, lack of women in professional settings) to less socially acceptable. Now the big one is homosexuality, which in some places has moved from institutionalized (listing it as a mental disorder, no gay marriage) to being purely a social issue with less than half of the population. That one's kind of moving over its critical point in a lot of places.

Trans people, however, are still in a place where it's socially acceptable to make fun of them, and socially acceptable to say one wouldn't date them even if sexually and socially attracted, and socially acceptable to defend people that are repulsed by them but cannot articulate a reason and blame the partner. They can still be legally discriminated against in a lot of places (denied housing, denied work, due to transgender status), many places have legal ambiguity about their rights to use public restrooms, and most people often don't know the first thing about them (I didn't know anything until high school).

Sometimes it's still institutionalized. There was a recent case where an 11-year old kid identifies as a girl, her mother is okay with it, but the divorced father wanted the child to be forcibly institutionalized due to being transgender, to make her "normal", and then German courts ruled it was okay to institutionalize her in a mental institution against her will and against the wishes of her mother. :areyoucra

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Well its partially true as far as the person was once physically a male.And just the knowledge of that leading to the belief she is really a man then ..may be ignorant but ignorant is a far cry from bigotry.And the result of that belief (not wanting to engage in sex with her) then would not be an "irrational' response.

It is if after being educated on the facts. It is irrational to cling to ignorance in the face of facts.

IOW as long as he believes that (regardless if we think its ignorant) its not a phobic reaction to not want to have homosexual sex if you are a heterosexual.Its your sexual preference by nature.

I disagree. It isn't homosexual sex, regardless of how he feels and believes. Those are not the facts and not based on research but on prejudices and ignorance. Shall we go back to the child being afraid of imaginary monsters analogy again?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

*ducks under incoming mystical pillow* *runs fingers through silky hair once more*

Um. How about I have relationships with those that I desire from my heart? Or, is that a crime against humanity?

Better not be. That's where I come from. The heart, that is. *SMACK!*

 

[DallasApple]

Those are not in the same category, however.

You can tell me all you want they are not in the same category.But I have asked around this week to try and get an idea how unusual Tom is and if I am close at all to why I think he acted like that...its a small sample but..I am very close.It seems its hard to 'grasp" may even be impossible for some ..that a trans female is not really a male.A man that has had surgery and takes hormones to have the body of a female..and I'm assuming almost like "role playing" as a woman. I.E sex with a trans female is really homosexual sex.

That's why I can not call it "bigotry" in those cases.I also don't see it as 'irrational" based on that belief that a cis-male would refuse to have sex with a trans female.

I do pick up too though..that even if they might "grasp" the concept of female identity male sex organs ....."knowing" that she once has a penis ..and would grow facial hair and have a "man voice" without the hormones makes her still not a real female.

 

[mounir]

Thanks Galen .
great way of presenting critical topic like this , whether a person should know the person identity before any sexual intercourse or not , how ethical it is to engage in a sexual intercourse with someone whose identity is transsexual . this is so critical topic , for me i have no idea whther i know if he is a transsexual ot not if a person for instance sounds and looks girl ! ethically i suggest that being homosexual or transsexual is a fraud . this is agianst human nature , there no doubt about it . why the world now is teaching children to accept homosexuality as a normal thing. our children will be confused in the future and homosexuality will become a normal thing to have in the eyes of destruction of our old civilization . lets fight this fraud and stop it from spreading to the conservative people over the world . lets teach children how to love a woman if they are boys and how to love a man if they are girls . lets stop this fraud before homosexuals get the federal benefits because of transgender surgery costs .

 

[MysticSang'ha]

You can tell me all you want they are not in the same category.But I have asked around this week to try and get an idea how unusual Tom is and if I am close at all to why I think he acted like that...its a small sample but..I am very close.It seems its hard to 'grasp" may even be impossible for some ..that a trans female is not really a male.A man that has had surgery and takes hormones to have the body of a female..and I'm assuming almost like "role playing" as a woman. I.E sex with a trans female is really homosexual sex.

Why not look at the research instead?

That's why I can not call it "bigotry" in those cases.I also don't see it as 'irrational" based on that belief that a cis-male would refuse to have sex with a trans female.

Because you asked around for about week? I got an idea....ask people who don't know a lot about bisexuality to determine if I'm really bisexual or not, and ask if they would ever have a relationship with me, and then tell me if they're totally rational in their thinking process. There are people out there who are biphobic in both the queer community and the straight community. It doesn't make it right, and I call it out when I see it, too. Especially if lesbian women and straight men start to take issues with my orientation as a source of their own anxieties.

I do pick up too though..that even if they might "grasp" the concept of female identity male sex organs ....."knowing" that she once has a penis ..and would grow facial hair and have a "man voice" without the hormones makes her still not a real female.

We have an opportunity to educate people on the realities of transgenderism. What's the better path, Dallas?

 

[Penumbra]

You can tell me all you want they are not in the same category.But I have asked around this week to try and get an idea how unusual Tom is and if I am close at all to why I think he acted like that...its a small sample but..I am very close.It seems its hard to 'grasp" may even be impossible for some ..that a trans female is not really a male.A man that has had surgery and takes hormones to have the body of a female..and I'm assuming almost like "role playing" as a woman. I.E sex with a trans female is really homosexual sex.

That's why I can not call it "bigotry" in those cases.I also don't see it as 'irrational" based on that belief that a cis-male would refuse to have sex with a trans female.

I do pick up too though..that even if they might "grasp" the concept of female identity male sex organs ....."knowing" that she once has a penis ..and would grow facial hair and have a "man voice" without the hormones makes her still not a real female.

Some of those are inaccurate statements that can be addressed.

Hormones do not stop trans women that already have facial hair from growing facial hair. They get that permanently removed. Hormones also do not change a trans woman's voice (they do change a trans man's voice- things can be masculinized but not undone). They train the vocal chords to naturally speak at a higher pitch. The hormones soften skin, grow breasts, reduce body hair, redistribute fat, etc.

If the person started hormonal transition prior to full puberty, they can make sure they never get facial hair or a deeper voice.

And once the source of testosterone is removed, for those that get surgery, hormones are not needed to hold testosterone away. Their hormone medication at that point are just estrogen, similar in use to a post-menopausal woman.

 

[Penumbra]

What if its the belief that the person is a man.No matter what they look like on the outside.And maybe even whats on the outside is not "real" female genitalia.Even that her clitoris was naturally a full sized penis therefore its still a penis just medically altered.IOW a man just made to look like a woman and that acts like a woman.A straight heterosexual (cis) man might in HIS HEAD believe he is having sex with a man which is against his very nature.

I just can not in good faith conclude that is a phobia "against' trans people.Anymore than the same man not wanting to have sex with a homosexual man (penis and all).

Also the same man ..would never "discriminate" against a trans person in any way.He would have no issue being room mates with them giving them a job and promotions (if in the capacity to do so) harbors no ill will what so ever. He simply would never have sex with one.For his own PERSONAL reasons.

Well its partially true as far as the person was once physically a male.And just the knowledge of that leading to the belief she is really a man then ..may be ignorant but ignorant is a far cry from bigotry.And the result of that belief (not wanting to engage in sex with her) then would not be an "irrational' response.

IOW as long as he believes that (regardless if we think its ignorant) its not a phobic reaction to not want to have homosexual sex if you are a heterosexual.Its your sexual preference by nature.

Why would the huge reaction against having sex with someone he believes is a man, not be considered phobic?

A heterosexual man not being attracted to a man makes sense. The sensory experience of having sex would be unpleasant for him.

But, if that person has a female gender identity, and transitioned hormonally and surgically such that this heterosexual man has no idea about her trans history, then it's not about being attracted to or not being attracted to the person anymore. It's about being attracted to them, but then being repulsed by the concept of having sex with a man. If he was raised in a non-homophobic environment, or took a lot of time to understand it completely, I definitely don't think there would be any major repulsion like that. It seems to be a social taboo, a disproportionate reaction that cannot be articulated.

It's like:
"I was attracted to him, but I'm not anymore. I found out he's Asian."
"He's part Asian."
"Yeah but to me that's Asian enough."
"But you didn't even know he was part Asian. What's the issue?"
"I don't mind being a roommate with one, or working with one, but I can't date one. I'm not racist or anything."
"Why not date one?"
"I'm not attracted to Asians."
"But you were attracted to him, you didn't even know he was part Asian."
"Yeah but I found out and I'm just grossed out now. I can't help it."
"But..why?"